Reptile & Amphibian Forums

With some recent posts by FR and what is natural for a snake I thought of this.

I have been tempted to put some eggs into the attic where the temps go to 115F just to see if it works.

I have found eggs in nature buried under some rotting wood pulp that was baking in the sun. The temps were probably around 125F. Now if the attic gets hot during the afternoon and cools down at night can the eggs survive? and if so, what effect (if any) will this have on the hatclings and incubation process.

Thinking outside the box. I applaud your courage giving it a try. Thats really interesting IMHO. I'm really appreciating hearing a lot of experienced herpers hashing out these things. These recent posts are really thought provoking. Good luck!

Ya know if you opt to try that, you may want to use a few different eggs. 1 King, 1 Corn, 1 Milk etc. Certainly an interesting experiment. Not only with the extreme highs, but the night time drop. Tom Stevens

It surely would be great to see, but I bet dead eggs.

First, Where the eggs you found snake eggs and what kind. Also, did you measure the temps or guess at them. I also bet they were not, 125F. My bet would be no higher then 100F

I do agree without a doubt, eggs in nature incubate at higher highs, but they also have more temperature variation.

There's one thing that is very important. Eggs ability to absorb water is directly based on their temperature. In nature, eggs(that I have seen) are dry and humid. Being dry, they take high temps without popping, hahahahahahahaha, it does happen.

Also, eggs do not tolerate fast changes in temps. So if you take your eggs out of an incubator @ say 84F and put them in 115F they would surely die and maybe pop.

I would guess most colubrid eggs begin to fail at anything over 95F(on a constant basis)

So, are you going to do it? FR

First, Where the eggs you found snake eggs and what kind. Also, did you measure the temps or guess at them. I also bet they were not, 125F. My bet would be no higher then 100F

I did not have a thermometer with me but you may be right right about the temps being lower. The mound of wood was sitting directly in the sun on a hot southern day (about 90f) and when I was digging around i noticed the eggs were very warm to the touch. I was thinking my eggs would never survive in this heat but then later I am thinking its more natural than we think for eggs to get that warm.

That is the most accurate and best discription I have read in a while. I find it funny that people and science feel the need for exact numbers. When what is important and useful is your discription. They were hot to the touch, and most likely dry, as in, the area is not wet or moist feeling. If it wasn't dry, the eggs would be dead.

Why I like you discription, because the next nest you find, not not be hot to the touch and you will think, my these eggs are cool. Then the next one will be warm, you get the picture.

Why is this important. Because you now understand its not about one temperature, its not about all clutches, its only about that clutch and at that time, in that place.

Snakes and their eggs use a range of temps, not a temp. The common statement like "I incubate my eggs at, 83.67451F" makes me laugh. The only possible reason for such control is to make the keeper feel important. The only important temps are, lethal temps, the temps that cause harm. Stay away from those, and your kickin B.

The important knowledge is to understand what abilities eggs have. Not an exact temp. For instance, eggs ability to absorb moisture is temperature dependant. Eggs doing fine at 72F will drown at 84F, both temperatures will indeed hatch kingsnake eggs. Or the opposite, an egg or clutch of eggs, doing great at 84F will cave in at 72F. With this knowledge, you will generally understand that full eggs will drown if the temp is increased. Which brings the reality, dry eggs have a much better ability to take temperature flucuation, they have more room to absorb moisture when heated up. Loosing moisture is only harmful if prolonged. Never heard of a dry egg drowning. Which brings a really funny point. When your full term eggs do not pip and "drown" that is a expressed symtom that the eggs are too wet, or too hot. Instead of operating on the eggs, simply cool them down a few degrees right before hatching or or or, don't keep them so humid. Eggs should not be hard to the touch, they should be slightly soft. Particularly around the time they hatch. Slitting eggs is avoiding the problem and concentrating on a manmade cure(again that control issue), instead of simply and it is simple, learning what your doing wrong.

Now the real funny part. When do we find eggs in nature? in the cold of the night or the heat of the day. Well, we do fit into a label like diurnal, and we scratch around in the heat of the day. So what were the temps in the cold of the night?

With my first visit to this forum, I ended up with a heavy discussion with that texas colubrid breeder, Cherryhill farms(I believe). He said something that cracked me up. In an attempt to express gained knowledge, he said something like, corns are 79F and calkings are 83F and gophers are 78.3, etc. I am making these numbers up. But the point is, all you have to do is, allow choices from 65 to 100F in your cage/s and this will allow all species of snakes to grow, breed, and live. And all without hibernation or brumation or photoperiod, heck, snakes are never out all the time its lite or never in, all the time its dark. Again only thoughts around mourning coffee. FR

to bad its not at the top.

My snake room is in a finished attic. Last year the A/C went out for just a few hours during the peak heat of the day. Temps were in the mid 90s for several hours. I had corn, milk, and kingsnake eggs incubating. Most of the milk eggs went bad before hatching (they were fertile when layed). Most of the kings hatched without a problem, though a couple had kinked backs. The corns were a different story. Most of them hatched, but they literally died within minutes of hatching. All the corns had deformities.

Needless to say, I'm not incubating anything in the attic this year....
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

...of my experience with keeping a few clutches (nigrita and Cal king) at or above 90F. Humidity 80-100%. They began hatching at 42 days and many (as much as 90%) were kinked or severly deformed. My thermometer and heater in the incubator were not correctly callibrated it seemed... I later did callibrate them and found what was a 10 degree difference in what I was shooting for, 82F.
Now other things could have come into play. I don't know.
Since then I have just kept the eggs in my snake room, and that gets as warm as 94 at times but fluctuates and lows are sometimes in the high 70's. So a quick guess at an average would be in the high 80'sF. Knock on wood, there have not been any deformities or other seemingly temp related problems.
Now the high temps combined with high humidity would maybe have a different result than high temps and low humidity. Don't you think?? Same for constant high temps versus spikes in temps.
I did however, just have a clutch of 18 s.black racer eggs found in an ant bed and under a rr tie in the cane fields (hot and dry)hatch after 90 days!
They were subjected to a normal temp fluctuation here in Tampa. It got quite chilly (for here) a few times during that period. All racer eggs I have hatched before took more the usual 49-56 days to hatch.
The egg is a wonderful thing. Tough yet fragile.
:Mark

I have done Baja zonata at constant 90 degrees before and they hatched fine in 45 days. Certainly they can tolerate higher temps but probably not for any length of time. I have had boas sit at 113 degrees but not 24/7. Ron Tremper spoke of a rosy boa that sat at 119 degrees for 4 hours each day. The problem with your attic is that it heats up fast and is hot for most of the day. 115 degrees for 1-4 hours a day would probably be tolerated better.

>>With some recent posts by FR and what is natural for a snake I thought of this.
>>
>>I have been tempted to put some eggs into the attic where the temps go to 115F just to see if it works.
>>
>>I have found eggs in nature buried under some rotting wood pulp that was baking in the sun. The temps were probably around 125F. Now if the attic gets hot during the afternoon and cools down at night can the eggs survive? and if so, what effect (if any) will this have on the hatclings and incubation process.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

The side of the house the attic sits on faces the morning sun. So it will heat up and stay hot for most of the day. In the evening after sunset it cools down. Risky but worth a try.

After reading the responses of kinked spines and other deformities I am even more curious. Before when I found the eggs in the heat they were blackratsnake eggs. It was in the south where I live and I was thinking of using eggs from snakes that are somewhat used to the temps in this area. I may hold off on a new until a new clutch is laid so the experiment can go from start to finish. Using eggs that are already 30 days old will not give accurate results.

BTW I would be very pleased with a clutch that hatches in 42 days (or there abouts) with no kinks or other deformities. Thats what i am hoping will happen

I typically incubate my eggs in my garage here in Davis, CA where the temp in the garage cycles from 90-95 to around 70 at night. It has worked great. High incubation temps will affect pattern and color. A friend cooked a clutch of Sinaloans once for a few days and they came out looking like weird Pueblans.

>>The side of the house the attic sits on faces the morning sun. So it will heat up and stay hot for most of the day. In the evening after sunset it cools down. Risky but worth a try.
>>
>>After reading the responses of kinked spines and other deformities I am even more curious. Before when I found the eggs in the heat they were blackratsnake eggs. It was in the south where I live and I was thinking of using eggs from snakes that are somewhat used to the temps in this area. I may hold off on a new until a new clutch is laid so the experiment can go from start to finish. Using eggs that are already 30 days old will not give accurate results.
>>
>>BTW I would be very pleased with a clutch that hatches in 42 days (or there abouts) with no kinks or other deformities. Thats what i am hoping will happen
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

...somewhat lazy but half-ass records (ha!) I had two clutches of Cal kings, one clutch of FL kings and (not surprizingly) 2 clutches of scarlet kings in '03 that hatched in 42-44 days. All those were fine.
Last year a clutch of mole kings was right at 45. All good.
It just depends I guess..
:Mark

These are just some of my results with the Mexicana ssp. in my somewhat limited experience. These are by no means facts......

The first three years I bred Thayeri I incubated eggs at 85 to 90 degrees. The eggs all hatched around 49 days. The hatchlings seemed to be smaller than I expected and harder to get feeding after their first shed.
The last couple of years of breeding Thayeri I incubated the eggs at around 78 to 83 degrees. These eggs hatched at 60 to 65 days with the hatchlings looking over all bigger. These larger hatchlings seem to take mice more readily than the smaller hatchlings in the years past.
My opinion is.......I think a 60 incubation period is beneficial to overall size and healthiness of hatchling Mexicana.
I also think fluctuating incubation temps can affect a snake's pattern and color. For example......The only striped Greeri in existence has not been proven genetically. It is thought that incubation temps resulted in the striped pattern.
What other morphological differences can be attributed to extreme or fluctuating incubation temps?
John Lassiter

After reading these posts I am keeping my eggs in the 78 to 84 degree range that has worked for me...
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
peterjolles@eastcoastcolubrids.com

Well you must know what you are doing because that male you hatched out on the 23rd is awesome.

Although not directly about Kingsnakes, this study goes into temperature effects on hatchlings. It was to determine if there are any effects of variable temps vs. more constant temps using the same mean (avg) temp.

Please note the first sentence in the section titled "Incubation Temperatures"..... "The viability and hatchling success of reptilian embryos are severely reduced at temperatures >38 °C (100 F)(Burger 1976; Muth 1980; Wilson 1998)."

I find it interesting they state in the study that method of incubation didn't affect sex ratios, yet there is a 10% ratio variance (5% from 50 either way) between each method. Maybe not TOO significant, but interesting.
Another interesting note, method of incubation affected body build, but not mass. Whether these standards directly correlate to Kings is anyones guess though. Anyway, the study (PDF Format)...................

www.seaturtle.org/PDF/Webb_2001_FuncEcol.pdf

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Ace

ive found gecko eggs in my Miami fl. attic HOT!but i think a rafter climber like a rat snake would surely seek the cooler moist terrain to lay!Chris

pic appeared ??? stomatitus check-up" Chris

np

i must of accidently clicked a pic before posting its a green tree python mouth exam. Chris