Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why were all of Sean Palmer's posts deleted? He's a respected member of the herp community, a paying member of this site, and
is only fighting for what he believes in. He needs our help, shouldn't we be supporting him instead of taking his voice away?
I understand that this site doesn't get involved in political actions or debates, but for some, this is the only way to get enough voices together so that we can make a difference or change. Please don't take away our right to fight legislation, it's going to affect everyone in the end, even this site.
Thank You,
Tom Pelton

I agree, Sean's post were within the rules and he was not disrespectful at all.

I think it was more about the continuous promotion of his upcoming book than anything else he was saying. Since his book will be to make a profit, I can understand why kingsnake.com would deleate "promotion material" for a personal profit.

Other than this, he was within the TOS from what I saw.

KS.com moderators should at least put back Wes's post of the newpaper report.

Best,

Al Coritz
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"Fighting on the forums is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded."

DH June 2005

I think they felt his posts were getting long winded, his posts were interesting reading and do express his difficulties well but I think some complained because of the book angle. I personally feel that the forum is the place to discuss this topic and if he brings his book up so what?
Jeff, a good point has been made - your site will suffer if we, the herp community, lose what little rights we have left. I personally think that this site should be a major vehicle for organization, rallying, notice, etc...It is time to organize folks, we dribble and whine and cry but nothing happens!!! Those that are "professionally" affiliated probably feel pretty cozy right now, but if you are a private hot keeper you better start getting active because the clock is ticking and the "professionals" are not going to help us as Mr. Harrison has proved...

As a "professional", I am behind Jim Harrison; he has every right to feel the way he does and unless you are in it professionally, you have no idea what he and other facilities like mine go through. You don't know what its like to have your entire supply of antivenin gutted to help some idiot who got nailed by his "pet" gaboon viper or western diamondback rattlesnake (a snake that was supposed to be like a "lap dog" according to its owner)....my staff and I put ourselves at great risk as we had no antivenin left and it takes time to replenish supplies. Most private individuals don't carry their own antivenin and that to me is irresponsible (don't give me this bull about how difficult or impossible it is to get....it may be difficult but certainly available and no excuse that someone is too lazy to do what it takes). We (now talking from the hobbyist side) have demonstrated a high degree of apathy that we can only blame ourselves....shame on us. As a professional, I am fortunate in that I can continue to enjoy my "hobby" at work. But, I also want to see my fellow private hobbyists, who are responsbile, to be able to continue to enjoy their passion just like I do.

As a private hobbyist, I am also 100% behind private ownership of venomous herps as long as there is a system in place that will weed out the bad apples. Unfortunately, that system does not yet exist despite many possibilities such as stringent permit systems, inspections, permit fees, proven experience with hots, etc. Its my hope that a system will be in place and our rights protected so that RESPONSIBLE owners can continue to enjoy their hobby. Unfortunately, as is quite evident by just poking in on this forum, it is quite apparent that there are MANY individuals who have no business owning venomous herps; keeping venomous herps is a privelege; not a right to some degree. And, as it goes, it is these very people who are ruining it for the handful of extremely competent and responsbible individuals who should be able to continue to do what they do. THere are some exciting ventures currently taking place with regards to antivenin banks, venomous coalitions, etc. but we have a long road ahead of us.

As far as Mr. Palmer's posts being deleted, I am personally glad that they were. Peddling a book that is probably more in tune with your typical garage sale swap meets is not the kind of image we want to project to those people who are deciding whether or not our rights to keep venomous snakes will continue. Nothing personal against him, I just get a very negative vibe from the posts I have seen and even though they are perhaps warranted, those feelings shouldn't be plastered all over the forum. I thought this forum was supposed to focus on venomous herps including natural history, field observations, sharing pics and husbandry information? Sure, its nice to deviate from time to time but I am in complete agreement with Kingsnake's actions in this particular matter.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>I think they felt his posts were getting long winded, his posts were interesting reading and do express his difficulties well but I think some complained because of the book angle. I personally feel that the forum is the place to discuss this topic and if he brings his book up so what?
>>Jeff, a good point has been made - your site will suffer if we, the herp community, lose what little rights we have left. I personally think that this site should be a major vehicle for organization, rallying, notice, etc...It is time to organize folks, we dribble and whine and cry but nothing happens!!! Those that are "professionally" affiliated probably feel pretty cozy right now, but if you are a private hot keeper you better start getting active because the clock is ticking and the "professionals" are not going to help us as Mr. Harrison has proved...
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Swaying from the "true" purposes of this forum is not a "time to time" occurrence. It is almost constantly these "politics" come about in here and take up TONS of space. It seems there is a stronger focus on our own banters than there is on an interest in these snakes.

Rob, your facility does great work in educating people on the importance of these animals and your work is appreciated by many. And as you know, I myself have started an organization aimed at spreading an appreciation for these reptiles and encourage responsibility for keepers.

I will email proposed bills to my organization and I will include my stance. I encourage those who have oppositions to bills or parts of bills to write to the list of politicians I include. We will also bring some of these things up at meetings "from time to time." But as far as spending much of our time on these issues when we can be working on our displays or programs which interact with the public...I am going to take our field work and public interaction far ahead of fighting legislation which, for the most part, is due to many "non-professionals" making no attempts to act professional.

This post is not in defense of professionals, as I have not seen any positions which should have to be questioned. Instead of a focus on deconstructing the positions of others, people need to focus on what their own stance is and making it heard. And I do not mean on kingsnake.com.

My stance and the last time you will see it taking space on here

I typed a rather long and artful response to this... unfortunately when I hit post the whole thing got scrubbed.
Suffice it to say that you should not take insult at what I said, I am a "professional" too and I agree with you on many points Rob, BUT as a "professional" I am not concerned solely about myself, I want to actively take part in this issue, have the experience and know how to do so, and want to see more motivation by public and private people alike. I honestly have little to gain by speaking up, I only have an interest in keeping H.horridum, though I keep other snakes (small boids) and these too are becoming illegal to own. I am legal where I live, it wont change in the near future, and honestly I have no desire to own an elapid or similiar animal (I got it out of my system 20 years ago). But the focus needs to be less on credentials and more on organizing. Our rights (privileges) are hard to discern these days and seem defined more by $ and connections rather than knowledge and experience.
"Professionals" and "private" keepers need to work together and stop the internal bashing.

I am in absolute 100% agreement with you. We honestly need to take action rather than bicker, and, as professionals, we may have more opportunities to make positive changes to help dispel the many misconceptions that lawmakers have. But, we also need to get our acts together and come up with a better way to police the way we are doing things: irresponsible keeping, unscrupulous reptile swaps, more accountability, etc. Its gotta happen soon because if we don't take action, as a united front, we are dead in the water.

>>I typed a rather long and artful response to this... unfortunately when I hit post the whole thing got scrubbed.
>>Suffice it to say that you should not take insult at what I said, I am a "professional" too and I agree with you on many points Rob, BUT as a "professional" I am not concerned solely about myself, I want to actively take part in this issue, have the experience and know how to do so, and want to see more motivation by public and private people alike. I honestly have little to gain by speaking up, I only have an interest in keeping H.horridum, though I keep other snakes (small boids) and these too are becoming illegal to own. I am legal where I live, it wont change in the near future, and honestly I have no desire to own an elapid or similiar animal (I got it out of my system 20 years ago). But the focus needs to be less on credentials and more on organizing. Our rights (privileges) are hard to discern these days and seem defined more by $ and connections rather than knowledge and experience.
>>"Professionals" and "private" keepers need to work together and stop the internal bashing.
>>
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Mr. Palmer's posts went off topic. I'm sure that's why they were deleted.
DEVENOMIZED.COM

As a hobbyist, what can/should I be doing to keep hots legal?

Can someone make it simple for me like signing a petition?