Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Incubation temp can vary from snake to snake. My female Eastern the last 2 years in a row laid eggs that hatched at 42 and 45 days and they cooked at 82 degrees, with very little fluctuation. Also they were incubated in damp sphagnum moss and yet I still had 100% hatch rates. I think some guys in here are3 looking too damn deep. Who gives a crap if in the wild they sometimes get to 90 degrees or down to 70 ??? If 80-84 works then why try and mimic the wild ? Also Ive noticed some in here state that snakes holding their eggs till 14 days is because of lack of good spots to lay. I wonder if my wife coulda held off a day or from delivering our 2 kids ? lol My guess is when they are ready to lay they will lay. I wonder what nerd sat in the woods and watched a gravid female until she shed then hung around for days until she laid her eggs to determine that in the "wild" its a much shorter wait after pre egg shed than in captivity lol. I hate over analyzation of stuff and thats what seems to be happening in here as of late. Everybody who has been doing fine breeding with great success is now thinking they are doing it wrong or they should fill their basement with sand and cut their snakes loose so its more natural. Also someone commented that a plastic box isn’t the ideal place to lay eggs ??? I wonder if anyone has put any Rubbermaid’s in the woods maybe the snakes would flock to them lol....get gripe people if you are happy with your own results up until now then don’t fix what ain’t broke. Im not saying don’t try anything new but something new isn’t always better. I know I get excellent hatch rates (until I used a different male this year) and I follow the old formula I cool em warm breed em and then hatch em. Sorry to rant I just see folks in here second thinking what may have worked for them and I think they need to take it all with a grain of salt. When I was in school for graphic design the worst thing you could do was to overwork a painting or a design when you shoulda stopped 2 weeks ago and the you end up with a mess.
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Keith, have you never seen a snake in a panic searching[as it is referred too] for a spot to lay when what we think is a great spot right in front of them? Or wondered what went wrong when a clutch did not hatch? What nerd sat in the woods and watched you asked? What nerds used maps to anaylize locale specifics? What nerds figured out that temp gradients in captivity help snakes survive comfortably?When I hear of someone having success in general I like to know if they were doing something different than I was. Let's keep in mind too many people including myself are keeping snakes in small containers because it is what everyone else is/was doing. These talks on husbandry and what happens in the wild are probably influencing people to consider what is best for the snakes, not just what's easiest for us keepers. Most of us will stick to what works as far as incubation temps. It is still interesting know if other things make a difference. If using highs n lows or something was known to produce healthier offspring would you not try it? The care sheet and breeding notes I refer too most were written around 82 and it still works fine for me. You should not mock people for thier dedication to learning about these snakes we are all so fanatical over. If "nerds" were not out there researching we would be asking a lot more questions and having less successes. Not much has changed since the standard answers were written to our questions but it is still interesting to talk about trying things differently. Even if only one or two people on this forum actually try any given experiment many of us will be interested to hear the results. Tom Stevens

I agree with Tom.
I think these recent posts are quite interesting and really make people think. It is WAY better and less boring than just posting pics of snakes. This forum should be used for information purposes mainly and that is what we have been getting hear as of late.
I agree to not "fix" what ain't broke, but isn't trying new things what keeps this hobby/business interesting.
If some people want to just conform to the masses then go right ahead...............I will continue to tinker.......LOL
John Lassiter

By all mean tinker Im not saying stick with status qou. Im all for new stuff but how am I gonna get better than 100% rate ? Twins in each egg ? Seems people take everything thats said here to seriously or as fact. Tom once banged me for that but I guess that only applies to people he disagree's with. Sorry if I offended everyone or they thought I meant keep with the company line. Fact is newbies read this stuff here as well and sometimes keeping it simple at first helps foster further learning. Again new ideas are great but not all new ideas are feasible or are better just because they are new. Change for the sake of change isnt always a good thing.

Keith

>>I agree with Tom.
>>I think these recent posts are quite interesting and really make people think. It is WAY better and less boring than just posting pics of snakes. This forum should be used for information purposes mainly and that is what we have been getting hear as of late.
>>I agree to not "fix" what ain't broke, but isn't trying new things what keeps this hobby/business interesting.
>>If some people want to just conform to the masses then go right ahead...............I will continue to tinker.......LOL
>>John Lassiter
>>
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Come on Keith, let's not go there. That argument was about something else and it blew up into so much more. I just said I often refer to an old husbandry breeding care sheet thingy by Steve Osborne. The link is at the top of this forum, Breeding Colubrid Snakes or something like that. It is old, and yet very effective. I refer newbies to it constantly. Before I read that I was told put the eggs in box with moist substrate on the top shelf of a closet...and that works too. But seeing a Hovabator is like 50 bucks I wanted a more efficient way of doing it. That's what we keep talking about. Fine tuning our approach doing more. or less..... Tom Stevens

I have to wonder why your saying that? Isn't this a place for conversation? Isn't it a place to talk about our kingsnakes? So I ask, what else would you have us talk about? only eastern kings, i would imagine.

Conversation and the information contained is to be use by those who need it, not by those who do not need it. I find it odd, that you think no one needs it(whatever it is)

I see questions from the curious here almost everyday.

Speaking of curious, isn't that what its all about? I guess your only curious about eastern kings and only in the way it pertains to you. Sir, that is great, but there are others out there and they like, what they like, so why not let them have their conversations too.

About taking information, out of context, that will happen, that has happened and you may be doing it. FR

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Yes Frank you are an invading male Kingsnake and I cant stand it lol get a grip buddy. My point is that you state your observations as almost fact. Please expand on wild females dropping eggs in under 14 days of shedding. How many have you observed doing this ? How did you accomplish this ? Also Frank whil; you come in this forum and toss out your thoughts and bits of wisdom do you ever EVER answer any newbie questions ? I bet you havent answered a single question via someone else's thread that is a beginner type question. I think in fact you post and then only respond (sometimes) to your own posts. Too good to deal with the newbies? I guess its up to the newbies to look for your posts and try and decipher what you mean by your posts. More than once you have stated some thought then failed to mention how you did what you did or what equipment was used etc... I know this because I would ask just about everytime. For the record this sint my forum but I have been posting here a long time I like to think Ive helped some people and Ive also learned alot here as well. In fact Frank Ive even taken bits of wisdom from you. I dont think you are FOS but you have a arrogant way about your posts that rub me the wrong way. You swoop in leave a thought then come back and maybe half ass answer the follow up questions (not always half ass but sometimes) . Kinda reminds me of a Professor in college where they show up for a lecture but leave the Grad students to the majority of the schooling.

Keith
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Sir, you have a problem. I state observations or events that happen/happened, the rest is up to us to figure out. Whether its fact, useable, rare, common, right, wrong or indifferent, is important only if we figure out how.

Sir, that is why this is conversation and only conversation, May I remind you, this is not a scientific journal, nor is this any kind of publication. Its conversation.

I picture this as a group of peers discussing what they like. What the heck do you think it is???????????????????????

I never said you did anything wrong. I just am glad to see some good information (right or wrong) here on the kingsnake forum. It is alot better than looking at pics of those black and white Eastern kings all day here.....Just my opinion....I will continue to do different things to keep it interesting...Peace....
John Lassiter

Amen, brother Tom! LOL! But Keith, you're right too, if it ain't broke...I would try a different approach to most all aspects of husbandry if I thought it would improve the overall health of my critters. In fact, I like the refreshing of the "new" ideas brought back for reanalysis. Kudos for this forum. I know I'm no expert and God help me if I ever know it all. THAT would be boring!
Todd

Well Tom I dont think you should assume most people keep their snakes in small cages. I dont for one and most people I know dont either. As far as a female frantically searching for a spot to lay eggs maybe she isnt searching at all maybe she is in pain and moving makes it feel better ? How the hell do we know ??? As far as my nerd comment I was out of line and I apologize to anyone offended but come on Tom someone said in the wild snakes dont hold their eggs as long as they do in captivity. I think that would be pretty tough to observe dont you ? I mean it would take some incredible luck and quite a few days sleeping in the woods to see that now wouldnt it. We arent talking about observing a pride of Lions here but a small tiny snake that can get out of view in about 10 seconds not to be seen again. Also I did add that and I guess you didnt see it, that go ahead and try new stufff but that dont think you have been doing anything WRONG the whole time because someone else has a different opinion. Yes an opion not a fact on how it should be but an idea. My post was simply to say keep things in perspective and not sit there and say "ohhhh Ive been getting 100% hatch rate on fat clutches of eggs but I think I'll bury my eggs in the backyad under my mulch pile because its more natural, wow Im so dumb Ive been doing it wrong all this time". News Flash there is nothing natural about a snake in captivity. If you want more natural action from snakes go look at em in the wild as thats the only true way to see it.

Keith

>>Keith, have you never seen a snake in a panic searching[as it is referred too] for a spot to lay when what we think is a great spot right in front of them? Or wondered what went wrong when a clutch did not hatch? What nerd sat in the woods and watched you asked? What nerds used maps to anaylize locale specifics? What nerds figured out that temp gradients in captivity help snakes survive comfortably?When I hear of someone having success in general I like to know if they were doing something different than I was. Let's keep in mind too many people including myself are keeping snakes in small containers because it is what everyone else is/was doing. These talks on husbandry and what happens in the wild are probably influencing people to consider what is best for the snakes, not just what's easiest for us keepers. Most of us will stick to what works as far as incubation temps. It is still interesting know if other things make a difference. If using highs n lows or something was known to produce healthier offspring would you not try it? The care sheet and breeding notes I refer too most were written around 82 and it still works fine for me. You should not mock people for thier dedication to learning about these snakes we are all so fanatical over. If "nerds" were not out there researching we would be asking a lot more questions and having less successes. Not much has changed since the standard answers were written to our questions but it is still interesting to talk about trying things differently. Even if only one or two people on this forum actually try any given experiment many of us will be interested to hear the results. Tom Stevens
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Keith, rack systems are all the rage now, and with good reason. Their a good way to keep snakes, and I know guys who produce great animals raised and kept in them. However from year to year I hear stories from them about things like losing snakes after brumation, eggbinding and small clutch sizes. I can not prove the size of thier cages has anything to do with that but I am attempting to produce a lot of snakes like they do, but in what I feel is a more appropriate way for the snakes comfort. I will say it again, most of my collection are in rubbermaids....but it is temporary and I would like to change that asap when some cash comes in. I have been fortunate, and have produced above average clutch size more often than not and I like to believe it is the few things I do a little differently. Simple things too. Feeding more often and more in quantity, larger cages and as large a temp gradient as I can get. A goal for me is to produce babies, and lots of them. If I can have one large cage and one large female produce just about as many eggs as 2 females in smaller cages I am a happy guy. I always yap about cage size because I see tons of pics of large colubrids in small boxes. There's just not a lot of variation and the snake is forced to live in one specific way[for the most part anyway]. Snakes are addiciting and many of us want more n more, and we cram our rooms full of them. Then it is even harder to cater to them as individuals. I recently asked if these snakes that laid eggs within 48 hours of thier pre lay shed took longer to hatch and the answer was no. That really interests me. I am all about attempting to keep stress for the snakes at a minimal. As soon as breeding season is over that means my snakes can [i know this sounds funny] relax and enjoy thier captive lives. Controlled climate with hot n cold options, clean water and cages and all the food they want to eat. So the sooner I have them complete the cycle the better, and I want eggs...not slugs....so I want everything as optimum as I can get it. I am a long way from that for now. But I am working on it and like to hear about things that may make a difference. Like you said about a pregnant woman holding out to deliver at the best place.....and jesting that it is impossible and would be hard and whatnot. You know she would like to get that baby out asap....I know my wife did! LOL. The sooner my snakes become gravid and deposit eggs the better. That is why I like to hear about all the recent discussions. Incubation of eggs....well the soner the better with that too but we do not want to see all our patience and work[i use this term lightly] go down the drain cause we hoped to see babies a week earlier. But if there's way to make the whole plan run smoother I want to know about it. When I recently told the story of someone who was lucky enough to witness those Pyro babies leave a nest, and then observe one of them routinely within 20 feet of the place it chose to call home it made me think keeping snakes in captivity is not half as bad as those nut jobs who think no animals should be in a cage make it out to be. But providing them with a means to still act like a snake should is important. We are not trying to rewrite the books, just ad a few liner notes. I know theres nothing natural about a snake in a cage....but that is my point. Just because it aint a vivarium does not mean we can not attempt to give them a feeling resembling life in the wild. Hot cold wet dry etc. Mimicing those things as best we can should make a difference...that is what I think anyway. Tom Stevens

Wheres Rick S when we need him. Your being, what did he say, absolutist or ism, or something. hahahahahahaha Its either this or that, no inbetween, hahahahahahahahaha.

I have to say, in my opinion, your comments have nothing to do with snakes, but more about territorialism. Wait, snakes do that too. Maybe we can compare your territorialism to that of a dominate male kingsnake.

I have a question, Males of many snakes combat dance. Yet its rarely observed in nature. Yet we commonly see males together, but they're not combating, Why? FR

"CAN'T TOUCH THIS"
.................................oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooH

>> I have a question, Males of many snakes combat dance. Yet its rarely observed in nature. Yet we commonly see males together, but they're not combating, Why? FR

Frank, figured i'd take a stab at this since you're raising a lot of provocative issues. Perhaps the males we see together in the wild are not in breeding cycle--maybe in the wild just as males will follow the scent of a female, they'll avoid the scent of another male? But in captivity our males are cycling at the same time and we're forcing them together...an unnatural condition in the wild? Do you have other observations or thoughts on the issue?

terry

Keith....How many subspecies or species of snakes do you work with?

Most breeders work with multiple species or ssp. At least the ones I know do. Breeding Getula IS slightly different than breeding Mexicana and, in turn breeding Mexicana will differ with breeding Pituophis....(all colubrids). You cannot base everything on one type of snake...
John Lassiter

>>Keith....How many subspecies or species of snakes do you work with?

Now just Getula but Ive bred many herps not just snakes.

>>
>>Most breeders work with multiple species or ssp. At least the ones I know do. Breeding Getula IS slightly different than breeding Mexicana and, in turn breeding Mexicana will differ with breeding Pituophis....(all colubrids). You cannot base everything on one type of snake...

Of course there are subtle differences I dont think what I said doesnt apply to all you mentioned does it ? Do you not cool Bullsnakes ? Do you not then warm them ? Im not sure where you get that Im basing everything on one type of snake. Lets face it if you have been breeding colubrids or different types they essentially are the same in regards to breeding, with maybe some subtle differences (sans Drymarchon and maybe a few others). What do you do different for Mexicana that I do different for Eastern Kings with breeding ?

Keith

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You stated......
Of course there are subtle differences I dont think what I said doesnt apply to all you mentioned does it ? Do you not cool Bullsnakes ? Do you not then warm them ? Im not sure where you get that Im basing everything on one type of snake. Lets face it if you have been breeding colubrids or different types they essentially are the same in regards to breeding, with maybe some subtle differences (sans Drymarchon and maybe a few others). What do you do different for Mexicana that I do different for Eastern Kings with breeding ?

Keith I am not knocking your intelligence or success at all. I just plainly do not think the posts here recently were as useless as you made them out to be. Frank Retes has already forgotten more than most of us even know. Like I said here before...There should information shared on these forums and that is what FR is doing. He is sharing what the pioneers of breeding were doing back long before you got your first clutch of eggs....

I breed lots of species of snakes. My favorite by far is the Mexicana ssp. Namely Thayeri.
I let my thayeri have a longer brumation period than I do my getula. I lower their brumation temps to 48F - 50F. I keep my getula closer to 55F. I leave my thayeri paired up for 3 or 4 days at a time unlike my getula. After and if I get eggs I incubate the eggs at 82F and usually get hatchlings at 60 days +/-. I think a full 60 days of incubation results in healthier and hardier offspring. You know....more robust.

I, too have become complacent with what works over the last 6 years of breeding. I really like the fact that FR and others are sharing information.....That is what keeps this forum interesting. I do like looking at pretty pics, but there is a gallery for that. I am just as guilty as you about posting pics just to share your collection with others. Check out the Mexicana forum....I have tons of pics there....LOL
Good luck with all your efforts Keith. I wish you and every hobbyist the best of luck with everything.
Peace,
John Lassiter

FYI, The very first ones that made it to the states and to be produced(not in pickle jars) were caught my Bill Garska of albino ruthens fame. He found the first one, while towing some young ladies broken VW van thru the mountains on a rainy cold night, it was crossing the road when the temps were in the low fifties. This individual was a leonis phase, I traded him a super ugly dark blairs that I recently found. I think I have pics somewhere. He then found a couple more. I went with him on the field part of his mexicana paper(which I never agreed with) I found them to be very perdictable and easy to find. I then found the very first black one. A super nice adult female.

as side note, his normal pair also produced black ones. The next group to make it to the states was from a couple of fellas from Cali who sold them to a big time reptile businessmen in cali.

I found many color morphs, there were some weird patterns. But I found a shed of a striped tharys. To bad I didn't find the snake. Many of the wild ones were not all that nice. I took a friend of mine from Cali there, and promised him I would find one in fifteen minutes, I found one within ten minutes. We then went different directions, I came back with several, i dumped them on the ground for him to look at and he pointed to one and said that one was very nice. That one was a P.d.jani, hahahahahaha far prettier then the kingsnakes.

A side note, they breed in march and egg laying is over by mid april, in nature. I had no problem finding gravid females. FR

That's a great story Frank. A dealer I met in south Florida told me how a few of the well know lines of Brooksi were all caught not far from his house. The look on my face was probably comical too him as it was old news to him. But to find Thayeri and Jani in the field would be similar too landing a trophy Marlin on a fishing trip. I can not imagine how awesome that must have been. We get used to the availabilty of snakes in the hobby and forget that they all were once just critters people caught, and how the first ones musta been such a huge deal to snake keepers at that time. I can score Brooksi or Thayeri from dozens of good breeders, but to speak to people who caught them makes me freakin jealous LOL. Especially to have found or seen the first one of any given snake....very cool Tom Stevens

..........I am quite flattered. Because I have never been called that before.

Seriously I have a lot of eggs and a hot attic. I am just curious. Its as simple as that.

P.S.
With my luck you were referring to FR and not me. Oh well..

No but from all the forums Ive been on that you have been to as well you have been called much worse lol. I wasnt referring to you though Rainer but seriously what the hell are you thinking ??? You find eggs under a rotten log and then you wonder if you can incubate eggs in your attic ? lol Makes a whole lotta sense.

Keith

>>..........I am quite flattered. Because I have never been called that before.
>>
>>Seriously I have a lot of eggs and a hot attic. I am just curious. Its as simple as that.
>>
>>P.S.
>>With my luck you were referring to FR and not me. Oh well..
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You find eggs under a rotten log and then you wonder if you can incubate eggs in your attic ? lol Makes a whole lotta sense.

Maybe I shoulkd have been a little more descriptive of my attic.
My attic sits off the master bedroom. To enter you have to go through my walk-in closet and there is a door on that same level. The attic faces the front of my house so it only gets the morning sun. This attic does not sit on top of the house and gets sun all day like other attics.

I need to get a thermommeter in there tommorow to see what the flutuating temps are from morning and afternoon. It stays pretty warm in there durng the day however.

As far as me being on that "other" site. You know I would not have anything to do with that site unless I had to. I much prefer kingsnakes TOS and feel it is necessary to keep things civil.

"I hate over analyzation of stuff and thats what seems to be happening in here as of late"

Hello kettle? This is pot. You are black.

>>"I hate over analyzation of stuff and thats what seems to be happening in here as of late"
>>
>>Hello kettle? This is pot. You are black.

for example ive over analyzed what ?
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To tell you the truth Keith I think he is agreeing with ya.....LOL

for example ive over analyzed what ?

EASTERN KINGS

LOL....good one. Thats not citing an example Rainer. I dont think posting pics and or talking about what animals I have constitutes over analyzation of Eastern Kings as this is the kingsnake forum.

Keith
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