Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am in search of any literature, journals or scientific papers that actually states that snakes (hognose or any) benefit from an all toad or lizard diet, as opposed to the standard rodent diet. I would greatly appreciate any help.

I doubt that you will find any. While I have seen a number of cases in which all mouse diets led to liver problems (mice are more fatty than lizards and toads), it seems like lizard eating snakes grow better and faster when switched to mice. Check out comparissons of growth between lizard and mice feeding grey banded kingsnkes. There was an article that talked about that a few years back in Reptile and Amphibian hobbyist.

This very issue has been the source of a dilemma for hognose owners, and to the visitors of this forum. The problem is that there is no literature in support or against an all mouse diet for hognoses. I personally have tried: I have accumulated over 50 peer-reviewed articles hognoses and found more than 350 references; I have made pleas to exotic veterinarian listservs and local veterinarians; and have called around to several AZA accredited zoos and aquariums around the country. The result: there is no information out there.

That doesn't mean that we can't use our ability to reason to sort things out on our own. It is very important that you take away from this post that the claims made about an all rodent diet on eastern hognoses are based on anecdotal observations and not fact. For instance, the poster below reference the commonly held myth that hognoses will develop fatty liver disease with an already in diet. Where did this get started? I have no idea. But if this forum and others are any indications of how misinformation can spread, I would have to say it started with a few observations linked to assumptions and conjecture.

Take it from someone who has spent the last couple of years researching the literature and ANY form or document that even remotely supports that in all road in diet is detrimental, and be rest assured that your hognose will not experience any ill effect. I have personal experience with eastern hognoses being fed rodents long-term, and breeders have raised and bred eastern hognoses on nothing but mice. If you get into a conversation with someone who insist that hognoses should not be fed mice, ask them to show you the proof... ANY PROOF. Then report it immediately back to me because I certainly haven't found any.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Hey,

Im just curious. Was your search limited to eastern hognoses? I'm fairly certain I've read about other species of snakes having problems from eating just mice. I believe it was eastern garters. The deal was that their bodies are built for eating fat poor foods like minnows and toads, and that eating a diet of just mice was like you eating just hamburgers with vitamins added. As for me personally, I do all mice feadings on all my animals including my garter snake, because I agree that catching toads from the wild is needlessly destructive when you could probably get away with keeping one at home and scenting mice with it. As long as you give it some crickets for it's trouble, it doesnt seem much to mind.

Cheers,
Luis
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1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.1 Ball Python
1.0 Sinaloan Milksnake
1.1 Western Hognose
0.1 Taiwan Beauty Snake
1.0 Baird's Ratsnake
1.0 Eastern Blackneck Garter
0.1 Bullsnake
1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.1 Crocodile Skinks
Gulf Coast Toad (for scenting)
Couch's Spadefoot Toad

You bring up a good point. My search was not limited to Eastern hognoses, but to hognoses in general. If you are able to dig up this paper are that you remember reading, please let me know as I would seriously be interested in it!
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

No scientific data (and I am sure I will hear about this), but my personal opinion is that it is best to stick to the natural diet as much as possible. After all, is'nt that what zoos do?? I just believe that sticking close to the natural diet (if it is possible) is healthier. I understand that it is not as easy for some to do, considering their location and all. I also know, my opinion differs from others in this forum. But, fact is fact, you a ARE feeding one animal to another animal. Some love frogs, some love mice...either way it will offend someone. I personally just love my hoggies and want them happy

(Sorry if I sound repetitive, trying to do this with my kids running around...kinda hard to think!)
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Jenea

You bring up some excellent points that need to be addressed with this discussion.

>it is best to stick to the natural diet as much as possible.

Most people that use this argument neglect to apply it to all aspects of captive husbandry. If you wanted to stick to what is natural, then you'd have to agree that 4 glass walls, an under tank heater, and one square foot of space is hardly natural. If you insisted on the diet being natural, it is only one small aspect of captive husbandry, and as you can clearly see there is nothing natural about captivity. So you better break out your tools and dedicate an entire room to your hognose. Even then it would hardly replicate the amount of distance a male will travel in the spring!

Being more specific, a truly natural diet for an Eastern hognose would absolutely include mammals, as well as beatles, grasshoppers and centipedes amongst many other things.

>After all, is'nt that what zoos do??

Hardly. In my previous post I stated I have contacted many aza accredited zoos. All of them that I can remember included mice in at least some part of their diet. Zoos tend to be much more concerned with the efficiency and cost than your average reptile keeper. Some collections that have several hundred snakes to feed would much prefer to thaw out nothing but mice rather than running around in the woods trying to catch toads for only a few snakes out of the collection.

> Some love frogs, some love mice...either way it will offend someone.

This is unrealistically simplistic. The difference between frogs and mice is that mice are bred by the millions every year in captivity, far removed from any natural populations (whether or not that it's a concern with mice is another story!).

Frogs on the other hand, are not captive bred but must be harvested directly from the wild. It is safe to say that any commercial harvesting of frogs would quickly turn unsustainable, meaning it would be removing more individuals from the population than they could replace. On top of that, there is a well documented worldwide decline of amphibians. Although most of the highlights have been specific to a few species, any expert in the field will not agree to statements that even toads are exempted from the synergistic effects causing the decline. Another problem with feeding frogs is being humane. Most people understand the advantages of not feeding a live mouse to a snake, especially a hognose. But I've never heard of anyone going through the extra lengths to ensure that the frog is treated humanely (as opposed to being captured and eaten alive fully conscious). You might say that it is natural, but like I stated before, captivity is not natural. In this case you are an intelligent being capable of understanding the suffering of another animal, and you are fully capable of preventing it (which is the basis for all animal protections in laboratories and such). Eating a frog and digesting it to death may be natural for a hognose, but as long as it is not in nature, it is inhumane.

>I personally just love my hoggies and want them happy

I can assure you they would be just as happy eating mice.

I will include my usual disclaimer by stating that this post was not necessarily directed at you personally. It is also for the benefit of the other many readers of this forum. You brought up some issues that are commonly discussed when debating the captive diets of Eastern hognoses.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

I knew you would be the one to respond . No offense taken. Yes, I do actually feed my snakes frozen frogs and toads. I also do my fair share to "repopulate" the frog population by providing breeding grounds (ie. ponds). I have offered my hogs a variety of foods. One will eat anything, another would starve before it ate anything other than a toad, so on and so on for all my hogs. They each have their own personality. If you have to trick an animal into eating something, then who is the convience for?? Not the animal. I almost weekly have to wash frog poo off of my windows, so there is no decline in the population in my area. So, I am humane, I do give my hogs the choice, I go with each animals prefrences, and I am aware of the wild populations numbers. I guess I am fortunate to live in an area that is warm most of the year. So for others, I guess it would be difficult if they did not live in such an environment.

I do agree with you that 4 glass walls are not natural, but I try to add what natural elements to their lives that I can. I would give them a whole room if my husband would let me....but that probably will not happen . I think both arguments have valid points. I do not think either on is 100% right or wrong. I just know what seems to keep my hoggies the happiest, and in the end that is the most important.
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Jenea

Actually, my dilemma has nothing to do with hognoses, although I appreciate all the help.
I am writing a grant proposal to study the effects of an all rodent diet as opposed to an all lizard diet for South African dwarf Bitis vipers.
I work for The Omaha Zoo and before I can get the zoo to drop about $10,000 for lizard colonies, caging and the actual snakes themselves I have to prove that I can publish some papers and make every dollar count.
It is known that the primary diet for dwarf Bitis in the wild is lizards, so I am wanting to study the effects a much richer diet of mammals might have on blood and cholestrol levels. I know there is an ongoing debate in this forum, but I have never seen any documentation. I need hard documentation to use as my cited sources.

PS. FloridaHogs, sorry but you are incorrect thinking zoos try to recreate as natural a diet as possible for reptiles. True, a lot of emphasis is put on natural diet for mammals and birds but Herpetculture is in its infancy and there is still a lot of research to be done. The Omaha Zoo is also doing a diet study on Phillipine crocodiles using the standard all rodent diet as opposed to a carnivore diet (tiger food). Hopefully with the publication of these papers, among many others, herps can have a healthier, longer, more productive life span in captivity one day.

I just believe that sticking close to the natural diet (if it is possible) is healthier.

I disagree. Feeding wc (live or frozen) anurans to hognosed snakes significantly increases their parasite burden. This isn't necessarily going to cause disease in all hogs, but it could in some. The parasite load of a captive bred mouse colony is lower and less likely to include parasites which negatively impact hognosed snakes.

When you balance that against the mythical accusations about fatty liver disease and the fact that snakes probably don't have enough of a limbic system or cerebral cortex to be able to be "happy" about what they eat, it doesn't make sense to me.
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Chris Harrison

You were the other I expected to reply...you always do to these type post I am aware of the higher parasitic risk. My hogs get yearly physicals.

As to the "happy" snake bit. Attributing the human emotion of happiness was probably incorrect. But, you cannot tell me that these guys do not have individual personalities, likes, and dislikes. When I said "happy", I was referring to what makes each individual most content and secure. I treat each of my hogs as an individual. I try not to stereotypify their care. Just because a hid works well for one, does not mean it will work well for all. I use the same concept for diet also. Of course, I could just not give them the choice, but that is not MY preference.

Like I said before, this is just my personal opinion. It is not right or wrong, just how I choose to care for my hoggies. As long as they remain healthy and CONTENT, no harm, no foul.
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Jenea

FloridaHogs stated:

>>

Good points. I agree with you that natural diets are best. But its unrealistic in my opinion. . .unless you want to hunt for amphibians all the time, or buy them. Which is fine if that is what, as a keeper, you want to do. Eastern hognoses can and do eat mammals in the wild. Feeding them mammals is natural. All mammals all the time may not be "natural" in the sense of a "wild like" diet. But husbandry has adapted many snakes to food that they never would encounter in the wild. And no, ZOOS do not exclusively stick to natural diets. Seriously. Maybe they do with selective feeders, like bamboo eaters, or eucylyptus eaters, or nectar feeders etc. But most of the zoos I know use Mice, Rats, and Crickets for their herps. A few even used canned dog food for some of their animals. And the tortoises, turtles, any number of surplus supermarket fare. Do you think BOAS only eat rats all the time in the wild? NO. They eat TONS AND TONS of stuff. I've seen them eating wild pigeons even. Pythons too. Rat snakes too....eat tons of wierd stuff. Lizards, birds, chipmunks, mice, rats, eggs.

I agree with Colchicine 100%, and until someone hands me ONE article, or one piece of proof of fatty liver disease being more prevelant in E. hogs, I don't buy it. I've never seen it, never had a necropsy report that showed it, and only hear rumor. And like Colchicine, I have queried Vet groups, and herp Vets. Whenever I ask for proof, there never is any.

Best,
Kenny

"Under-nutrition without Malnutrition"