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Here are a few pics I took today. I intended to take some pics of a few of the others from the litter that I have held back, but ofcourse they were in shed. The more these grow up, the more I regret selling any of the nice ones that are long since gone. I really think as I look back that there was some really interesting things going on genetically....I know, I know, that is what everyone says...lol. But I am really at a loss. There were probably 25 (normals and hypos) or so out of two litters of a total of 62 babies that had a tremendous amount of characteristics that currently define the "jungle" morph. (I have spent countless hours looking at all of the jungles online)I had no idea of all the variability involved with the jungles. It has only been recently that there have been a lot of them online to look at and compare them to the snakes I produced. I have approached this topic before when it was hot on the forums and completely understand that IT IS NOT A "JUNGLE" IF IT WAS NOT PRODUCED FROM A BOA THAT ORIGINATES FROM THE SWEDISH LINE KNOWN AS JUNGLES. I was also told YOU WOULD JUST KNOW WHICH ONES ARE JUNGLES. That is why I propose to call this line the "CYCLONE BOA".

How do you know if you are new to producing any boas.

Is it possible that the hypo male I got from Rich at salmonboas.com was carrying the jungle gene?? (He was produced in 2002, same year some of the first hypo jungles were produced I think) I have not asked him due to him not liking how I acquired the snake from him--domain name thing some may remember quite awhile ago. Or are both of the females he bred (completely unrelated and acquired years apart) carrying a similar "jungle gene"?????

Here he is...

The Females...

At any rate I guess Im just rambling.....sorry about that. Just looking for any advice and ideas--and it may be premature, as I will be completing several breeding trials in the upcoming months and probably years to completely figure this out.

Here are a few pics of a couple of babies

There is no Jungle blood in your animals. Rich Has been producing striped and abberant salmons for many seasons now, It does not make them Jungles. If you would like to call your boas "Cyclone Boas" Feel free, I find it funny that you dont just call them striped salmons just like the rest of the community does.

himself. Id like to say that you did produce some nice jungles this year, however I am eager to see how many of the jungles you sold this year will actually produce jungles....my guess is probably not as many as you predicted.

Thanks
Bob

Female #1

Male #2

Female #3

Female #4

Female #5 sorry only photo i have is a preshed

Male #6

Female #7

Female #8 again sorry preshed photo

Female #9

Male #10

Male #11

Female #12

Male #13

Female #14

Male #15

Female #16

Female #17 again sorry preshed photo

Female #18

Male #19

Male #20

I am open for honest opinions and debate. However they are all sold and if the owners were unhappy, I am sure they would have said something about it by now.
Thanks,
Mark

the difference between an abberant normal and a jungle. Why dont we just call them all abberant normals. Why??? Cause then you could not sell them for $3000 and up, well that and it has been proven a genetic trait. All Im saying is when you scan the web and look at all of the supposed jungles there tends to be a real big variance. And to top it off nobody can tell me what makes a jungle--there is no definition "You will know when you see one". I wish I lived closer to some of you all who produced these jungles so I could really see them in person. Because in pictures many of yours and Celias just look like nice normals...that is of course what you called my salmons. Just abberant salmons.

I only started this conversation to communicate some concerns and look for some ideas. I did not want to get into a pissing contest with those producing jungles. I stated previously that I know that my snakes are not jungles...(they were not produced by a known Sweden line jungle....)Productive communication with fellow herpers is what I seek, conversation that can raise awareness and preserve our love of our reptiles.

Im sorry Mark if I offended you, but in order to get people to think and communicate sometimes it helps to ruffle them a little bit.

OH yeah! To answer your question about which ones not being jungles....I would say #3, #4, #7. Because those look the most like the normals that I produced with my abberant salmon.

Thank you
Bob

if they are jungles?

I am not trying to get into a pissing match.

I am just wondering why you are trying to beat this dead horse. You know your snakes are not Jungles, yet you keep refering to how yours look like them. If you want to call them Cyclones fine, Just be honest to the people you sell them to and say they were from Ihle stock so they understand its not a new Genteic mutation you have single handedly created your self. It was from a line of Salmons that has been known to throw striped and abberant animals.

I am in no way offended Bob, I said I was open for debate and honest opinions. I appreciate a good debate on animals of any kind, not just other peoples snake but my own as well.

Thanks,
Mark

...

These things that will continue to keep this industry interesting. I am not trying to bash your animals, just create some intelligent conversation. Call me sometime if you want,
517-712-4794. I always look forward to talking to those who have the same interests as I.

I would also like to point out that not only is it possible to sell "jungles" that do not prove, but at this point it makes sense to me that "normals" have been sold that were indeed jungles....Perhaps this is where the problem lies!!!!! Some may have purchased a normal that could eventually prove to produce "jungles". If this happens, why not allow these people to sell their snakes as jungles...Its pretty obvious when half a litter or so are extremely abberant and has awesome whites and yellows in the background color, as well as the dot,dot, dot pattern on the head stripe, which actually occurs less frequently in the hypo jungles.

Thanks
Bob

to this thread and then I went out to get lunch and came back and saw that it got a little heated so I wasn't going to get involved and then I saw my name in there so I was like...well I have to respond now LOL...

Anyways...YES I would have to say that the Jungle gene is extremely variable. Possibly ALMOST as variable as the Hypo gene and therein lies our dilemma. You need to keep in mind how variable the Hypo/Salmon gene is. I believe that the Hypo/Salmon gene is probably the most variable gene currently out there!

Honestly Robert, your Salmons are VERY nice looking but in my humble opinion, I do not think they carry the Jungle gene. I am certainly not an expert but the reason I say this is because while they have the aberrancies, it does not appear to me that they have the Jungle coloration or contrast. Keep in mind that the Jungle gene is BOTH a pattern and color variation.

Now can I be sure that they do not carry the Jungle gene? NO...I would not be so bold as to flat out say "NO! Your Boas are definitely, without a doubt just normal Salmons!" Why? Because I don't know this for SURE and neither do you. My suggestion in your case is to try and prove it out. Prove it out before you give it a name. If it proves out to be a Jungle, guess what, you've got some Salmon Jungles and you can call them exactly that and sell them for Salmon Jungle prices. If it doesn't prove out to be a Salmon Jungle, who knows what it may be. They might be just very nice looking Salmons or they might be something else entirely. However, no one will know until you do the leg work.

My suggestion in your case is for you to get a Jungle from the Swedish proven line of Jungle Boas and take that Jungle and breed it to one or more of your Salmons. IF your Salmons ARE carrying the Jungle gene, you should produce some Super Jungles.

Now I understand that there is already some confusion/dispute about whether your Salmons are Salmon Jungles or not and I am unsure of how the aberrancies in your Salmons would effect the babies when bred to a Jungle so you might get some babies that might just "look" like Super Salmons so your work is not quite done yet.

Take what you think is a Super Jungle from this breeding and breed it to a completely unrelated normal female. If you produce a litter of ALL Jungles from this breeding, then you have your answer.

If you lived near us, you would be more than welcome to stop by our facility and I would be happy to show you our Jungles. The ones we have produced this year are not very aberrant and none of the normal Jungles we produced can compare to some of the insanely aberrant ones that Mark produced. HOWEVER, the ones I have sold and the ones I have available for sale are still all Jungle Boas and I base this not only on aberrancies but on saddle shape, body coloration, and the amount of contrast the animal has. I will stand behind them 100%.

I did have a couple of normals that might have been considered Jungles based on the way the saddles looked but they were clearly normal colored and did not have the bold contast that my Jungles have so guess what? Those were sold as normal Boas for $85. I can't speak for anyone else, but if someone buys a Jungle from us that does not produce more Jungles, then we sincerely apologize and would be happy to at the VERY least replace that animal with a proven Jungle of the same size/sex (I'd probably throw in some other animals as well because I would feel really bad about the whole situation LOL). That is how strongly we stand behind our animals.

This is how we define the Jungle morph on our website...

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Jungles... now this can be a little tricky. The Jungle morph is co-dominant and the Super is extremely cool. The problem with this morph is that there is much confusion about WHAT is a Jungle and WHAT is NOT! The "Swedish" line is the ONLY proven line of Jungle Boa with a SUPER form!

Originally bred in Sweden by Lars Brandle and established in the U.S. by Peter Kahl, the Jungle Boa had a confusing start. Once thought of to be a recessive trait, the Jungle was later proved to be a co-dominant trait upon the production of the Super Jungle. Thanks to Peter Kahl(U.S.A.) and Lars Brandell(Sweden) the Boa Morph world has this great morph to work with. The Jungles' unique traits include pattern aberrancies (which can include connected dorsal saddles that create a "zig-zag" like pattern or "cookie cutter" shaped dorsal saddles), a distinct ivory-yellow coloration that intensifies with age, a BOLD black outline around their pattern (specifically the tail saddles) and slightly elongated tail saddles.

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Anyways, I know these types of discussions will be frequent due to the fact that it can be very difficult to tell what is a Jungle and what is not. I can see why you think your Boas might carry the Jungle gene. My suggestion is that you work with them and try and prove them out.

I don't know if any of this helps...but I hope it does...

Here are some photos too...

Thanks,
Celia

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Celia Chien

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com

Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

Thanks Celia. I appreciate your explanation. That is exactly what I was looking for. You are an asset to the herp community, and I can only imagine that you will be here for a very long time.

Now let me clarify something.....The first post I made was just a way to get something started. I know that none of my snakes are "jungle", that is a guarantee....and I said this previously. They came from no established jungle line. And you are right there is a lot of work to do to prove whatever they are. And I will in the coming months and years figure out what it is.

Once again awesome response.
Thanks
Bob

compared to a normal. I have noticed several distinct charecteristics for the jungles from looking at pictures and from my own animals and others I have seen in person.

One is that they tend to loose the triangle shape that hangs down the side from the saddles, making it more block shaped.

Many have the square with a dot in the middle of the saddle as well.

I have also seen alot of them with dots on the head like many arabesques have.

Alot of them have partial striping or chain like patterns.

I notice a butterfly saddle look to many of them that is very distinct that looks like a flying H sometimes because of the lack of the triangle shape hanging off the side of the saddle.

And of course Color has a major role in all of them. They stand out like a sore thumb in photos and in real life when placed with normals.

I, like Celia, also gaurantee my animals 100% and have no problem with replacing or refunding anyones purchase if any of these animals were to prove as not Jungles, which I have no reason to think that anyone of them will do.

I think that Jungles are a sound investment and really cant wait for more Super Jungles to be produced as well as Jungle Albinos and Sunglows! The possiblities are endless

Again, I do believe this was the year of the Jungles, but it can only get better from here

Thanks for all those who got babies from me this year, I cant wait to see what you all produce with them. Dont forget to post pics as they get older too!

Thanks,
Mark

worth every penny.....
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Female #4 and Males # 13 & 15 I would say are not. Must have been hard going through all of those. They ALL look great. I am no expert on jungles and do not own any (damn crappy year). But this is my opinion based on watching this project for the past 5 or so years......

Chris
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Chris & Alliey
website
E-mail Us

Mother with no abberencies from Boa Store.

Father from PROVEN SWEDISH LINE OF JUNGLES Produced in the first litter of Salmon Jungles in 02 in a joint effort between Rich Ihle and Todd Smith.

All the nromal looking siblings and even some that werent so normal looking were sold to Mickey at the Lizard King Reptiles as a group.

The 20 babies in the previous post were the Jungles out of 37 live babies. There was one still born Jungle and 2 pills.

Thanks,
Mark

..

If He calls them CYCLONES he can get more $
What Makes a CYCLONE? color/pattern?
can you explain the genetics.
If you Ever get a REAL JUNGLE and are lucky enough to breed it Trust me you will know which are jungles and which are not!
Just spend the money!
Michael T

the dark corner of Kingsnake, and lurk....LOL.
Apparently it is still a sensitive subject.

Thanks again
Bob

If you have a new proven single gene mutation, then come up with a name.

If its not proven, then wait until it is proven. Jumping the gun is poor practice.

Cant get much simpler .

In order to prove them as sweedish line jungles youd need to do what Celia suggested, breed one to a jungle and see if you get supers. Then prove the supposed supers to non-jungles. If the super proves to be super, then you have a proven sweedish jungle line. If it is a new single gene mutation, callem "cyclones" or whatever you want to call them.

What you are misunderstanding is that I am planning to do the breeding trials. I only posed my post the way I did because I knew that I would get someone willing to throw their two cents in. The term "Cyclone" was a generic one, and yes I understand how to prove out a morph. I am also aware at the current trend at jumping the gun, which I intend not to do.

Thanks again
Bob

np

go out and buy one so they can start producing them instead of trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat...That's what I would do just sell some of my abberent salmons and buy a REAL JUNGLE.

Ash Lopez
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You would have figured out that I was just trying to understand the "jungle" mutation. I do believe that I have said several times in that post and others previously that mine are not jungles, I also said that there is no way they can be "jungles". I also said that with breeding efforts there may or may not be anything proved otherwise in regard to my animals. I also recall that the whole reason I started this thread was to get those that produced jungles this year to chime in and discuss what I think is probably the most striking of all morphs currently available in the boa world in variability overall stunning appearance.

So, instead of just throwing your 2 cents in without thoroughly understanding the intentions of the one who started this thread, you should probably seek out the whole story and not just what you want to hear.. I could go on, but I wont.

Bob

Sorry,
I did read your post maybe I just jumped to the conclusion that you where another one of those guys that try to say they have boa's that produce JUNGLE LIKE PATTERNS,and wish they where onto somethiing new.I reread your post,and the conclusion that I came to was..... You where implying that in some strange way that the jungle gene might be working codominantly or ressesively and MIGHT skip a generation and expresses itself through the offspring?????

"Is it possible that the hypo male I got from Rich at salmonboas.com was carrying the jungle gene?? (He was produced in 2002, same year some of the first hypo jungles were produced I think) I have not asked him due to him not liking how I acquired the snake from him--domain name thing some may remember quite awhile ago. Or are both of the females he bred (completely unrelated and acquired years apart) carrying a similar "jungle gene"????? "

I honestly think the only way to rival the Swedish Jungle line you would have to match the clean,stricking contrast of pattern and colors.
Good luck with all your animals,they are beautiful.Especially the last one.SMOKI'N !!! Ash Lopez
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I only used the questions about the jungle mutation and reference to my animals carrying it as a hypothetical statement....I know that there is no jungle in my animals. But what I do suspect is a really neat way that the hypo gene has intermixed with at least one of my big female normals. It is really not a surprise because she is a very nice orange/yellow girl with a slightly abberant tail. At the very least she throws some very nice stripes and abberants on her own, but I believe with the salmon male breeding her I am throwing, and forgive me for using this phrase "super" abberants. You can check out some pics of the other boas born this year as well as some of the rest of my collection here.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v244/robertmcphee/#

that male breeder does look like he can be a Jungle, and the adult females sure don't...

some of those babies look like they could be salmon jungles...

please post some of the Normals from that litter that you believe to be jungle/cyclone..

a comparison next to a 'normal normal' would be best!

thanks much, Joe

Nice boas!
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin