Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I find it hard to believe, that this is so hard to comprehend. And Oh my goodness becky, you do not have to change your kettle or pot or method of keeping. Its merely about understanding.

Why do we as keepers think we have to control or do something when the animals are fully capable of doing it themselves. For instance, in the monitor world on one of the interviews, someone asked me, How does it feel to breed all these species of monitors that have never or rarely been bred before. I said, hold on dudes and dudettes, they have been breeding for tens of thousands of years all on their own, without my or any humans help. So why should I feel special or feel anything other then relief. Heck they are out there now doing it.

My methods with monitors are the same as my methods with snakes were many many years ago. That is, give them the tools they know how to use and let them use them. They know how. Man do they know how.

I now have boards named after me, in the montior world, Retes stacks/boards, they are a stack of boards with a heat source on top, this heat source is slighly above what we would consider the high. With monitors, it is 135F to 200F(on top). Each level of boards dropped the temps. The monitors actually knew how to use and not use the highest temps. Truthfully, Its very hard to find nature temps above 165F. We do see these temps on the surface of rockoutcroppings directly facing the sun. Funny thing is, these are the areas where monitors and snakes seem to pick for some of the year or all of the year.

Now for the funnyist part, I invented these boards, not for monitors, but instead for kingsnakes. I used them to test what temperatures pyros would pick while digesting food. You see, pyros use rock crevices to thermoregulate. They move up for heat and down for cool(in nature, in some locals) So indeed, I did not invent anything, I just made it easier to work with.

What I soon realized was, snakes(pyros) and lizards(all sorts) actually had some physical and behavioral design to digest food at a constant rate. That is, if they consumed a large food item, they would pick a high temp for a short time, then move down to a lower temp, then again to a lower temp, as the food was digested. If they cosumed a small food item, they picked a second level or third level of heat. But all in all, if they had a choice, they would digest their meals in about the same lineal time period.

Then I found that they would pick different levels of this hidden heat(cracks between the boards) for other purposes. Like for some reason, they would elevate their body temps during shed or if injured. They even elevated it at times during reproductive events. In between these events they moved to as cool a temp as they could find. In fact if allowed they would move to temps that we consider brumating temps, even in the summer.

Then because I am a "dyed in the wool" field guy, I took my own measuring devices and went out in the field. I found the dang snakes were picking the same cool temps when they did not have a heat required event(mentioned above) Of course I was very surprised to find that in the areas that allowed such things to happen, there were huge numbers of snakes.

Now if you think about it, in northern winters, there is no available food, so there is no reason to pick warmer temps, they are not breeding at this time, whoops or are they? So they do not pick higher temps. So has we know, snakes find dens to brumate, or do they? I mean you easterners surely realize that timbers do, but what about milksnakes or watersnakes, or ratsnakes? I understand you find a few racers in timber dens, but hey, wheres the rest?

Sorry for asking questions.

Anyway, what I am getting at is, in most cases(you can exclude the NE because Keiths there) these snakes seem to perfer the same cool temps year-a-round, when they do not have a need for heat, to a point they caused another term to be made. Estavate(sp) this is when they become dormate during the middle of the summer. Whats that all about? Any guesses?

So after I realized that kingsnakes wanted to be cool(brumate) at all times, I stopped keeping them at a controlled temp and gave them a choice. Then for some reason, I ended up having all sorts of world first breedings of all sorts of snakes and lizards. How funny. I must be a huge genius, or maybe I don't know anything and only have faith that the snakes and lizards do. As you can tell, its the latter.

Let me end with something I read. Some reported was interviewing some fella named Henry Lizardlover, he was some iggie keeper. The reporter said, so your an expert iggie person, he replied, no, I keep expert iggies. I had to laugh. Bingo, we are suppose to allow our charges(kept animals) to be expert at what they are, not tell them what to do. FR

FR,

Wow! That is some great information and food for thought. I for one am glad you are posting on this forum. I remember back in the 60's.70' and 80's when a experienced herper like yourself was around we looked up to them with much respect and awe. We kinda treated them like movie stars (really) I am sure you know what I mean. But today with the interenet and younger herpers that type of respect is virtually non-existent. What most of these posters have accomplished is basically what you see here. They were raised on this forum and have little experience outside of this. Kudos for taking the time here FR.

Now I would like to ask a question that correlates to your post.
This year I made some pretty bad decisons. Every year during brumation (prior to this one) I have kept my snakes in the dark and the heat tape on low until the temperature goes up outside. The room is not temperature controlled so there is no heat and air during the summer or winter. I keep the heat tape on so they can choose a temperature gradient and so that they don't freeze, This year I turned the heat on high during MID FEB. in hopes of having an early year. Well 5 of my females did not cycle and the rest JUST bred late May. That means they were up feeding since Feb. The result is most of my clutches are low fertilty. I used the same males and females I bred for the past few years with no problems, so I know its when I warmed them up. This year I changed things to make the snakes think its warm outside when in the past I would keep them cool until the spring. I made this "cahnge" because I heard this is what most herpetoculturists do. It went against my better judgement and common sense. Being one who goes against the grain and have a think outside the box attitude, I always did things different but gave it a try this year. In previous years I would wait for April and just warm the cages for a day or two, put the males in with the females and they would hook up. They would breed immediatly. This always worked for me because the temps and seasons correlated to what was going on in my snake room.

So my question is based on geographical location. How important do you think it is to breeding success to follow the seasonal weather patterns outside even if the snake room is temperature controlled?

sorry

>>So my question is based on geographical location. How important do you think it is to breeding success to follow the seasonal weather patterns outside even if the snake room is temperature controlled?

I don't now the ansewr but wanted to add an observation. when i started breeding gouldian finches 30 years ago most of the finch books said they needed to be kept at very high temps, would succumb below 70 or thereabout. Clearly, these books were written about conditions the birds experienced in the Australian wilds, and about conditions provided for the early imports still accustomed to those conditions.

By the time i stopped breeding gouldians 15 or so years ago, i had them breeding year round with babies in nests when temps were in the 60s, and other times when temps were in the 90s. And i visited aviculturists in california who kept their goulds in outdoor flights in climes where there was sometimes skim ice on their water bowls.

My conclusion is that under captive care and decades of captive breeding, animals can acclimate so that their temp requirements, and their responses to temp variations, may differ from what they'd be in the wild.

terry

Rainer,
You are leaving out details. When did you put them down? How did you put them down? Did you control the light cycle??? I have used light cycle "brumation " for the last few years and have had good success. That is I spent about $20 each at Home Depot on digital timers and had the ability to control the light cycle day by day minute by minute. I then got the sunrise sun set time table off the internet for Florida for the year and picked the times a month earlier than I was at. I had good luck with this but I started "moving" the sunrise in the end of summer. So I did not bring the snakes out earlier but instead put them down earlier. They cycled Temp-wise as best they could in a house in Florida but they went through a full light cycle as if the seasons changed for them and they lost a month of summer. If you do this I would avoid changing the times more than a month at a time. Just my experience with the subject. I had good fertility and until this year improved on it every year. This year I moved to Chicago and had no control of my heating and am having big problems but that is another story. I know others who have done what I said and they have had good results. If you are going to control every aspect of your animals life than you need to pay attention to every aspect. Not saying you don't. I do know that when I was single and had fewer snakes I never missed anything that went on. Now I have a lot more going on and I don't have the time or the discipline to change the times once a week every week. So I am back to the seasons being my guide.
Later Jason

I really appreciate your thoughts on a lot of this stuff. Some of the most interesting posts I've come across. Please keep it up. You sound at times like some of the DRY guys.Thanks again!

np

;

>>I find it hard to believe, that this is so hard to comprehend. And Oh my goodness becky, you do not have to change your kettle or pot or method of keeping. Its merely about understanding.
>>
>> Why do we as keepers think we have to control or do something when the animals are fully capable of doing it themselves. For instance, in the monitor world on one of the interviews, someone asked me, How does it feel to breed all these species of monitors that have never or rarely been bred before. I said, hold on dudes and dudettes, they have been breeding for tens of thousands of years all on their own, without my or any humans help. So why should I feel special or feel anything other then relief. Heck they are out there now doing it.
>>
>> My methods with monitors are the same as my methods with snakes were many many years ago. That is, give them the tools they know how to use and let them use them. They know how. Man do they know how.
>>
>> I now have boards named after me, in the montior world, Retes stacks/boards, they are a stack of boards with a heat source on top, this heat source is slighly above what we would consider the high. With monitors, it is 135F to 200F(on top). Each level of boards dropped the temps. The monitors actually knew how to use and not use the highest temps. Truthfully, Its very hard to find nature temps above 165F. We do see these temps on the surface of rockoutcroppings directly facing the sun. Funny thing is, these are the areas where monitors and snakes seem to pick for some of the year or all of the year.
>>
>> Now for the funnyist part, I invented these boards, not for monitors, but instead for kingsnakes. I used them to test what temperatures pyros would pick while digesting food. You see, pyros use rock crevices to thermoregulate. They move up for heat and down for cool(in nature, in some locals) So indeed, I did not invent anything, I just made it easier to work with.
>>
>> What I soon realized was, snakes(pyros) and lizards(all sorts) actually had some physical and behavioral design to digest food at a constant rate. That is, if they consumed a large food item, they would pick a high temp for a short time, then move down to a lower temp, then again to a lower temp, as the food was digested. If they cosumed a small food item, they picked a second level or third level of heat. But all in all, if they had a choice, they would digest their meals in about the same lineal time period.
>>
>> Then I found that they would pick different levels of this hidden heat(cracks between the boards) for other purposes. Like for some reason, they would elevate their body temps during shed or if injured. They even elevated it at times during reproductive events. In between these events they moved to as cool a temp as they could find. In fact if allowed they would move to temps that we consider brumating temps, even in the summer.
>>
>> Then because I am a "dyed in the wool" field guy, I took my own measuring devices and went out in the field. I found the dang snakes were picking the same cool temps when they did not have a heat required event(mentioned above) Of course I was very surprised to find that in the areas that allowed such things to happen, there were huge numbers of snakes.
>>
>> Now if you think about it, in northern winters, there is no available food, so there is no reason to pick warmer temps, they are not breeding at this time, whoops or are they? So they do not pick higher temps. So has we know, snakes find dens to brumate, or do they? I mean you easterners surely realize that timbers do, but what about milksnakes or watersnakes, or ratsnakes? I understand you find a few racers in timber dens, but hey, wheres the rest?
>>
>> Sorry for asking questions.
>>
>> Anyway, what I am getting at is, in most cases(you can exclude the NE because Keiths there) these snakes seem to perfer the same cool temps year-a-round, when they do not have a need for heat, to a point they caused another term to be made. Estavate(sp) this is when they become dormate during the middle of the summer. Whats that all about? Any guesses?
>>
>> So after I realized that kingsnakes wanted to be cool(brumate) at all times, I stopped keeping them at a controlled temp and gave them a choice. Then for some reason, I ended up having all sorts of world first breedings of all sorts of snakes and lizards. How funny. I must be a huge genius, or maybe I don't know anything and only have faith that the snakes and lizards do. As you can tell, its the latter.
>>
>> Let me end with something I read. Some reported was interviewing some fella named Henry Lizardlover, he was some iggie keeper. The reporter said, so your an expert iggie person, he replied, no, I keep expert iggies. I had to laugh. Bingo, we are suppose to allow our charges(kept animals) to be expert at what they are, not tell them what to do. FR