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Adding FUEL to the fire - FR, Keith, Tom, Blurosy, etc SEE THIS...

ECC Jun 26, 2005 02:50 PM

My Brevard County, Florida has been looking for days to lay her snd clutch of eggs. She made a mess of her "usual" laying spot (a cut in half milk carton filled with spaghum moss and vermiculite). I put in another container with Perlite and spaghum moss yesterday. Well, she opted to lay in the moisture-sucking aspen chips!!!

In the first pic you can just make her out under the vermiculite container.

In the second pic (next post) you can see I lift it up to see her laying.

COMMENTS???

-----
Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
peterjolles@eastcoastcolubrids.com

Replies (28)

ECC Jun 26, 2005 02:51 PM

see the pic.

She is laying now - God I LOVE THE EARLY SUMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



-----
Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
peterjolles@eastcoastcolubrids.com

BobBull Jun 26, 2005 03:13 PM

I had a het albino eastern female that laid last night(crappy fertility 9/24). In response to FR's posts I filled her entire tank with moist sphagnum the night she shed 19th. I also left the lay-box inside her tank without its lid. I covered the box with cardboard for light exclusion. She chose to lay in the lay-box provided. I don't know exactly what that proves, just thought I'd share.

For the experts, how should I proceed with this female to double-clutch her with the albino male?

-----
Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

bluerosy Jun 26, 2005 04:05 PM

It looks like she laid 24 eggs and only 9 are good. Is that right?

BobBull Jun 26, 2005 05:28 PM

Last year, when the male was 2 she laid 25 slugs. This year I have paired him with 1 het she had a prolapsed oviduct stuck eggs and the like all slugs and I paired him to a pos het (first timer) 7 slugs and 2 fertile that died or went bad she laid a second clutch and I'm incubating 3 eggs from that round. Peter thinks my egg boxes were too wet, so I've dried things out. I put the male in and watch copulation, I introduce him alternating nights after that until she totally rejects him.

What do I do to boost my fertility, room is at 80 degrees and all of these animals were cooled at 57 degrees for 3 months.

-----
Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

bluerosy Jun 26, 2005 08:41 PM

Did you keep your male on heat? What kind of set up do you use?
Some people keep their males on heat tape that is to hot.

BobBull Jun 26, 2005 09:18 PM

I have no other suplimental heat. His bin is usually 78 deg (temp gradient from 75-81 bottom to top of the rack). I'm keeping the collection on paper in rubbermaid sweater boxes with humid hides (shoe box w/lid packed with sphagnum).

The female is 52" long and 702 grams post lay weight.
The male is a thin 52" and 653 grams.
-----
Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

bluerosy Jun 27, 2005 07:46 PM

Well the sperm did not cook then.

I think we should ask this question on a new thread. I would like to know how/why females sometimes produce so many infertile eggs. We should use FR for as long as we have him here. He knows more about breeding reptiles than anyone else I know.

BobBull Jun 28, 2005 09:47 AM

B
-----
Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

bluerosy Jun 26, 2005 04:01 PM

Well it just goes to show that FR knows what he is talking about. The snake did not lay in the lay box because it did not know it was a lay box.lol. She wants to lay under something thats sits flat on the surface.

I gave up on lay boxes years ago and my snakes lay in the pine shavings. As long as you get to the eggs within 8-12 hours they should be fine. Sounds rough for the snakes and if FR can reccomend a easy to get source (like a pie plate or cardboard ?)I will make things more comfy for my females.

Rick Staub Jun 26, 2005 06:12 PM

Do you usually have lids on those lay boxes or do you leave them open like that? I would not lay in them either if they were exposed with no lid.

I have had good success just putting a heavy piece of plastic such as a cut out section of a rubbermaid lid in the cage and wetting it down underneath it. They do seem to like to lay under things.
-----
Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

ECC Jun 26, 2005 07:32 PM

My snakes usually just get the 1/2 milk carton for an egg laying container.

Most use it.

Next year I am going to give them something more secretive. I know that Bluerosy and others don;t believe in it - but most of my snakes DO use the egg laying conatiners so I am going to stick with them.

By the way - that was a Yellow Rat Snake and she laid 10 eggs. It was her second clutch of the year so I got 22 good eggs from her this year. One of my other Yellow Rats laid 30 eggs this spring. She is gravid again now. Any ideas on how to drum up the Yellow Rat Snake market??? LOL
-----
Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
peterjolles@eastcoastcolubrids.com

Rick Staub Jun 27, 2005 02:39 AM

>-----

Yeah. Get Florida to change its commercial collecting laws.
-----
Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Rtdunham Jun 27, 2005 05:38 PM

>>>-----
>>
>>Yeah. Get Florida to change its commercial collecting laws.
>>-----
>>Rick Staub
>>R&R Reptiles

antelope Jun 28, 2005 10:13 PM

Looks like she's nesting and picked what she thought was the optimum spot of the choices available! Wow!
Todd H.

FR Jun 27, 2005 11:23 AM

Our captives are constantly trying to comumicate to us. They do so by their actions. In this case, your snake is telling you something, loud and clear.

Lets start at the begining, what you call a nest box is not a nest box, its a box, period. After the female chooses it to successfully nest in, then it becomes a nest box. In this case, your cage substrate proved to be a better nesting area then what you offered. Consider, there is no arguing this, your female is the judge and jury and has rendered her verdict.

When a nesting reptile "makes a mess" out of your intented nesting area, it is saying, this piece of crap is not cutting it. As in, my keeper calls this a nest box, but i surely don't.

Normally a snake does not work a suitable nesting area, they simply and cleanly use it. One burrow going in, nesting quickly and cleanly, then coming out and covering the hole. Anything other then that is degrees of failure.

From the pics, it does seem to all be wet. Snakes do not like wet, they perfer dry and humid. To live in and nest in.

Also, your boxes are, WAY to small, what are you thinking???????? Your approach is very common, its not giving your snake something really good to nest in, your offering something thats just a little better then the cage and hopefully better then the water bowl. In this case, you failed, the cage turned out to be better.

I onced used a funny analogy trying to explain this to varanid keepers. Monitors really use depth in nesting, unlike snakes. But this analogy still applies. One task of nesting is to put the eggs in a safe secure place. "Not where a one-legged robin can dig them up". So you see, you have no depth, or security. I will venture to say, in nature, we do not see snake eggs where the sun shines or where any lite is seen, as in, they nest in the dark.

Please consider, theres different approaches to keeping reptiles, to force them to do what you want OR to invite them to do what you want. To nest them in small lited areas is without question, against their natural behaviors and is forcing them. While we may not have the ability or understanding to nest them like they do in nature, we should give them our best effort. Again consider, REPRODUCTION, can be a life threatening event. Females are willing to die to reproduce, its our job/responsibility to not allow that and give our best effort.

Most natural nests I have seen are from four or five inches deep to over a foot. I imagine that is all about surface temps. It also may be about my lack if digging deeper(to much work). Most of my work here is with montane species and I would think they would not be as deep as low elevation species.

There is much confusion about reptile nests, specially because we have keepers from dry areas and keepers from wet areas. In all these areas the snakes are doing the same thing, only differently. In desert areas, the snakes seek consistantly humid areas(hard to find at times) In wetter areas, they seek the same, only there they are avoiding wettness and water. Here, they are mostly ground nesters, but in wet areas, the ground is far to wet, so they are above ground nesters. Consider, the conditions they seek are exactly the same. I hope this helps, FR

ECC Jun 27, 2005 02:37 PM

Please don't call me out in the forum by typing, "what are you thinking????????" like I am an idiot. 5 of those yellow rat snakes could fit in a 1/2 gallon milk jug and yes, I had MANY snakes lay in teeny-tiny containers this year with no problem. In short, I WAS thinking.

Look, I respect what you have to say - because I think that you know what you are talking about --- no question. However, you could take a lesson on how to control your ego.

It wouldn't do any good to take the lesson from me, though

Remember, we are all in various stages of keeping and breeding herps here. Take a look at my website and go to my 2005 Price List page - I am doing SOMETHING right.
-----
Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
peterjolles@eastcoastcolubrids.com

boids-n-more Jun 27, 2005 03:12 PM

How big are your rat snakes out od curiousity? I used the 4.5 qt stearlite containers with a hole cut in the lid to keep moisture in and give security filled with petemoss. That was 4 a mexican black king that is around 4 foot give or take 6 inches. She nested in it twice now this year the second time being a big surprise cause i didn't try to double clutch her but sometime this week is when she layed. Yes i keep the nest box in there year round with petemoss in it for a place to hide and aid in shedding. Those boxes are 99cents here at walfart but it might be an idea for you to try out and see if it works for you. I am new to the whole egg laying thing so i might have been lucky this year but all my good eggs hatched from my first and only snake egg clutch. The second clutch i'm not too sure about how good they are , they were different sizes and some had like a hard bottom for some odd reason. I hope this helps Paul

BobS Jun 27, 2005 03:19 PM

np

FR Jun 27, 2005 03:38 PM

I started my post with, please take this in a constructive manner. I see you did not. For that I am sorry.

About Ego, I offered something "different" that may or may not help you and you attack me. I think its your ego thats being expressed. Did you want me to say its the snakes fault???? Ok, its the snakes fault.

Also, I did not say you did not know anything or did something wrong. Consider, everything we do in captivity is to some degree wrong. I commented on that pic. Sir, that was what you asked me to do. So whats the big deal?

I feel if your going to ask me a question, you should be man enough to listen to the answer, if you do not like it, that's fine, you are not going to be forced to act on it in any manner. Simply discard the information. Have you ever considered I may be wrong, there is a high percentage of that. The reason is, I do not have any real information of what occurred. I only have that pic. To me, that looks like really poor nesting. I am sure many others would agree. But then, its only a pic. The reason I say that is, in my early years, I often saw the very same thing. That is until I learned how to avoid that.

All in all, what's suggested is, you offering a better nesting area, if you do not want to do that, great, go on with your bad self. I know, I don't care what you do. I did not care yesterday, nor will I care tomorrow. That sir, is the simple reality. After all, they are your snakes and your problem.

It does appear to me, your repelling my post, just like you are repelling what that snake is saying. Its your ego thats doing that. You say, I like what you say, I like what you say, then what I said counterdicted you, and you do not like it no more. hmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess its only good when its about others.

So Please, if you going to make it about egos, or some such crap, do not ask me any questions or read anything I have to say. I will thank you for that courtesy, FR

BobS Jun 27, 2005 04:27 PM

We all get a little delicate about things sometimes ( myself included) and read into posts with a diiferent "voice" than was intended.

I don't want to get in the middle and get squashed.

But I think we ALL need to chill abit. This is about these cool animals we like so much.Some of these have been the most thought provoking posts I've ever come across from ALL of you.

And while its marginally amusing to watch this version of Pro-wrestling I think most of us want to use the site to talk snakes.
PEACE GUYS...

antelope Jun 28, 2005 10:29 PM

Amen!
Todd H.

ECC Jun 27, 2005 08:00 PM

Just leave it alone man...

By the way - if you went to my 2005 Price List page you would have seen two pics of two Yellow Rat Snakes (and the Brevard County Florida Rat Snake is the SAME one) laying eggs in 1/2 milk cartons.

For this, her second clutch of 2005, I assume that the spaghum moss was too wet - as you pointed out.

Forgive me - my wife gave birth to our second baby last Thursday and I have been pre-occupied.

I am done with this topic. I don't have the time or energy for squabbles.
-----
Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
peterjolles@eastcoastcolubrids.com

Rtdunham Jun 27, 2005 05:49 PM

>>Our captives are constantly trying to comumicate to us. They do so by their actions. In this case, your snake is telling you something, loud and clear.

>>... your boxes are, WAY to small, what are you thinking???????? Your approach is very common, its not giving your snake something really good to nest in, your offering something thats just a little better then the cage and hopefully better then the water bowl. In this case, you failed, the cage turned out to be better.
===============

Good post. I agree the box seems very small. I DO find that long-fiber sphagnum soaked for a couple minutes and then wrung as dry as i can by hand, is welcomed by my snakes (hondos, pyros, and in past years, getula.) Mine seem to go through more of a process than the enter/lay/leave you describe, though perhaps you were just abbreviating your comments. Mine typically enter and sit on top of the sphagnum, compressing it considerably, for a day or two. It's when they burrow to the bottom that i know egg deposition is imminent. Almost always but not always, they lay on the bottom, so that i can view the eggs from underneath, through the bottom of the sweater box and the laybox. Infrequently a female lays on top of the nesting material, if that's an appropriate term. I think you're right that the snakes need a sense of security and might choose a dark DRY corner over a moist, damp but well lighted lay box. I typically clear the substrate away (I'm using carefresh) and put the lay box in the back corner of the sweater box, so they're in pretty dark circumstances...and although the sides of the laybox allow some lite through, the substrate is piled at least halfway up the sides, blocking 6the light, and the tops are not quite opaque, but nearly so. Of the last 50 or 75 clutches of eggs i've gotten (this year and last) all were laid in the laybox except for one clutch deposited when i failed to provide a laybox.

By the way, your observations have me wondering...sometimes i've put the laybox in a front corner of the sweater box, and sometimes I get animals that "resorb" (* -- i'll start another whole thread on THAT subject! I'd be interested in thoughts from everyone here)...anyway, I'd not noticed any correlation between failed clutches and whether the laybox was front (more light) or back (less) but it's an association i'll be watching int he future. Or maybe i'll jsut make a point of always keeping them in the darker back of the tray.

peace
terry

FR Jun 27, 2005 07:19 PM

Hi Terry, First lets define a few things.

With every clutch, there is no such animal as success or failure. There is always degrees of success or degrees of failure. The simple difinition of success is to have eggs laid and some hatched. But what if the female dies and you hatch part of the clutch, or all the clutch? Is it success if the female dies and only one egg hatches?

What about if you get great nesting three out of four times and recieve 80 or 90% hatchrate? Or 99% hatchrate over thirty strait clutches??? Do you get the picture. There are indeed different levels of success.

Now once you reach the understanding of having confidence in getting eggs from a female and confidence in hatching, then the next logical step is to do allow it more efficiently.

If a female takes 10 after shed to lay and looses lots of weight and you compare that to the same female laying two days after shed and loosing much less weight. One is "better" then the other. Of course laying faster and with less stress(loosing weight is stress) is perferred. Is this so?

So yes, there are levels of success, even with 100% hatchrate.

What I showed a few days ago expressed that. There was no digging, a simple tunnel in, a quick nesting, and out to feed. All within four days of the shed. I consider that something to strive for. Would you?

Now consider, I never based my methods or designs on snakes in captivity. I have always based them on snakes in nature. It seems reproduction in nature is not stressful, nor does it cause weight loss. I have to ask why? They must do something different, what?

Now about nesting, we all have different paradigns, it seems with the fella above and you, its based on the size of your cage. You have a box the snakes are in, then of course have to put a smaller box inside for nesting. (i feel a little like George Carlin)It appears the fella above has those short sterlite boxs(or rubbermaid) So hes restricte with height. So your paradigns are your original cage size. You cannot stuff a box thats larger in a box thats smaller, can you? You see, theres a problem. There is no rules about this. You can simply have a huge nesting box aside from your cage and put the female in after she sheds. Hmmmmmmm now your not restricted by cage size. Of course then you can say, but I don't have room or my room is not suited or my wife took my box. I have 7000 females, etc. But the truth is, none of that has to do with the snake, its only your paradigns.

The paradign of moisture, the fella above was all concerned about the nesting box being moist. But the snake laid in a drier area. In my experience, snakes do not want moisture, they want humidity. I have said that a whole bunch of times. I do understand, that is a difficult concept, dry and humid. But that concept is key. Just think about what problems wet would cause in nature. Warm wet full of dirt and all sort of fungi and bacteria, hmmmmmmmmmm nice. I would think mold would result. These are things to be avoided. Yes? no?

In your case, boxes in front or back, both are missing the point. Both have lite, snakes lay their eggs in total darkness, anything else would cause death. So behaviorally they are looking for darkness and your forcing them to lay in the lite, some lite, more lite, all still lite. See what I mean.

Also the person mentioned they offered choices by putting two nesting boxes in the cage. But both were not suitable, that means, there was no choice at all. The same for your nesting in front and back, both may be the same as far as the snakes are concerned. FR

P.s. Some pythons do indeed lay their eggs in areas of minimum lite, and move them forth and back. But then, this is not a python forum.

PreacherPat Jun 27, 2005 07:42 PM

Hey Frank,
Some old timey preacher said "there is nothing new under the sun!" and then it got written up in a book called Ecclesiastes which means the preacher. You are still challenging me to learn, to stretch, to think, pardon the pun, "outside the box!" And you are still getting thumped on by others. Thanks from this newbie who has known you and been keeping these things for 40 years for hanging in there and putting up with all the pooh that comes your way!!!! The proof is in the pudding (got to get these puns outa' the way before I start on my next sermon). Ultimately your main point is the most important: whether it's colorful finches, big and small fish, or reptiles watch the critters! They know what they want and need!!! $.02-no charge!

Pat G-C

antelope Jun 28, 2005 10:40 PM

Agreed. I like hearing what Frank has to say, and hope we can all grow a little THICKER SCALES. How about continuing the racer/whipsnake vs. kings in scale thickness question sometime? I hope we've done our homework!
Todd H.

daveb Jun 28, 2005 08:17 AM

it seems to be overlooked that these eggs need oxygen, not alot in the beginning but the need is there. the whole concept of evolving into an egg with a shell and its own food supply was to get out of the water and forge an existance onto dry land. if you are an egg in a dirt nest and all the spaces in between the dirt particles are filled with water, oxygen can't reach the egg and it/they will die. probably the best visual to understand dry yet humid would be an old basement or root cellar in the middle of summer- dry yet humid.
it is my opinion that eggs don't need a lot of substrate water, i think that they contain enough yolk in their sac. again i go back to evolving independence of this life stage away from a body of water. (Hey Frank, why don't eggs count as a life stage anyhow?) when it is digested(aerobically) you eventually get carbon dioxide heat and metabolic water, enough to be used for whatever is being done in there. there only needs to be enough humidity to keep water from leaving the egg out into the surrounding substrate. so if you have a "dry" substrate with water vapor -the humidity- you are meeting the needs of the egg. i know eggs can absorb waterbut i don't think they need to... also consider what's being done with substrate free incubation, a really neat step.
dave b

idaviss Jun 28, 2005 07:46 PM

I have a female that shed saturday night. I put her lay box in today after I noticed her stirring about, and her eggs had moved down to some degree. She is currently sitting on the top of the medium in "her laybox" where she laid last year(on top). As I have read and re-read this thread a few times, I have been given quite a few new points/thoughts to consider while I wait; and for future years to come.

I do have one question for FR. . .do you give your female Lampropeltis' a totally dark laybox?

Also a question for TD. . .do you contribute your female(s) resorbtion of eggs to inadequate laying conditions/places, or were there other factors that you as the keeper(in your mind)could have caused for this to happen?

Anyone else who would like to respond to these questions also would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Ian Daviss

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