Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are some animals I photographed this week.

I think the weather has a lot to do with the fact that I've seen three new zonatas--two in one outing less than ten feet apart-- this late in the year. There are still a lot of ringneck snakes out, which is somewhat unusual, and I've only seen one pittuophis, which is highly unusual--and that one was a hatband.

Other animals are around but I concentrated my efforts on the zonatas and a boa I found by surprise. It generally takes more effort than I'm willing to expend to get an agitated animal to sit still, which gives me a newfound awe of those who do wildlife photography so well.

Regards,

SA

Charina bottae, female, 20”. Found at dusk. I got distracted catching froglets for a friend’s garter snake and forgot that the sun was setting. On a whim I flipped a rock in my favorite pile and there she was--the absolute last thing I expected to see. I positioned her on a rock and got off a few pictures before she scrambled under. If you’re an astute observer, you’ll recognize that this is the same formation I set a gravid zonata on to photograph for an earlier post.

Very cool! One day.....(sigh!)
Todd Hughes

Zonata 1. Very pretty animal-- no crossovers and a pleasant disposition, as though he actually enjoys being handled. He was a neonate when I collected him on March 9 of this year. He’s now pushing 17”. I brought him along to photograph in situ, during which time he shed on the way there and then ate a skink that I left inside my travel bag on my motorcycle on the ride home. Quite the little adventurer…

That is one terrific lookin' snake! Great pic!
Todd Hughes

Zonata 2. This guy was under this board sharing a cavity with a vole, which you can just barely see at the upper edge of the photo.

Zonata 3. Note the absence of black--almost like an Applegate Pyro. This is EASILY the prettiest zonata I’ve ever seen. 15”, male, probably born last year. He was collected, bringing my total of captive zonata to the legal limit.

That one could almost pass as an Agalma. Great find. You said that brings you to your legal limit. Correct me if I'm wrong,but isnt the legal limit with a valid fishing lisence for zonata 1..?,very nice find again,and great pics too.Thanks for posting,
Jeff Teel

The limit is one zonata per fishing licence per adult member of the household. My wife just LOVES reptiles...NOT! LOL. But it satisfies the requirements.

Hi,
I did think of that,but didnt want to post it. But your right, I bet she loves that Z she got there. Again, very,very nice zonata. I havn't seen A LOT of wild zonatas,but a good number,and thats one of the prettiest ones I've seen a pic of.Thanks again for posting the pics.
Jeff

According to California F&G officials the legal possession limit is only one per household and not one per person.
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Randy
Firehouse Herps

My wife and I are separated, generally amicably, and my daughter shares my interest in reptiles. In case you’re a fish and game cop, the animals are housed a couple of miles apart. Satisfied now? Or do I need your approval to visit them?

I don’t think I’ll post here anymore, thank you. People like you make herping a drag, at least the sharing part of it.

Let me bring you up to speed on my observations.

For one, I CAN READ--I don’t need you to quote the regs.

Second, it’s a myth that zonatas are threatened or rare, or that they require protection. I can go out on any given day when conditions are optimal and find three or more in an hour—all within fifty paces of the road. Imagine how many are out there in the bush if they’re that easy for me to find so close to the road.

Here’s my theory of how it works. Anytime and anywhere the springtime sun warms the surface sufficiently, animals are going to congregate. As the skinks come to the surface for bugs, the hungry snakes follow. In case you didn’t know, skinks are a preferred, in my experience REQUIRED, source of food for zonatas but they have different habits than basking lizards that stay at the surface throughout the season. As the surface dessicates, the skinks retreat ever deeper to maintain the proper temp/humidity gradient and the zonatas follow them down, just as they followed them to the surface.

Here’s my point: zonatas are commonly associated with rocky outcrops but this is only because it’s simply easier to find them there. The reality is that there are teeming populations occupying the literally thousands of miles of labyrinthine rodent burrows that penetrate into the sandy hillsides of the ranges that run up and down the coast of California. The reason I know this is because of the numbers of skinks that occupy same, which subsist on the countless termite and ant colonies thriving there. The difficulty is that the only way to find zonatas in that kind of habitat is to provide artificial cover, at which time you will find all you want—which I know from real-life experience.

Take it from me, there are zonatas in places where they’ve never been officially recorded and all it takes to find them is a little coaxing.

Now lets talk about the four DOR zonatas I’ve seen thus far. Given that I travel a very tiny fraction of the roads that traverse zonata habitat, and only once a week or less at that, imagine how many animals, not just zonata but all species, suffer a similar fate EVERY night during the breeding season. Skunks have taken to nesting near roads because they’ve learned that it’s a ready source of food they don’t even have to dig for. (In case you didn’t know, skunks are a major predator of all snake species.) Hence, the majority of DOR’s are likely gone before sunup, which only adds to the variable factor in determining a population’s relative health by counting snake v. Goodyear fatalities.

You can correctly infer that I don’t agree with the rules as they currently exist, but don’t presuppose that I break them just because I find them “quaint.” The truth is that I’m a dabbler and I don’t want to bother with a collection. Heaven forbid that they’d breed and leave me with a true dilemma. But the larger truth is that F&G could remove all restrictions and it would have NO impact on the native population—in fact, for what my opinion is worth, it would decrease pressure if people could breed and sell them freely. As availability went up, prices would fall and the demand for WC would eventually cease altogether.

If you can see how this next relates, you get a gold star. The local media carried a story recently about how the SF zoo bought a collection of SF Gartersnakes from a zoo in Amsterdam for thousands of dollars. They made a big deal about how rare, precious and beautiful they are, yadda, yadda, yadda—which is all good don’t; get me wrong—but they could have simply popped over to San Gregorio or a half-dozen other places and got all they wanted without all the fuss. The whole exercise reminded me of weathermen who are too preoccupied with maps and charts—and too busy polishing the seat of a chair with their heinie—to go outside and see what’s REALLY going on.

Cheers.

I was relaying information that is an important part of the hobby. Laws are laws regardless of how accurately they represent actual native populations. The fact is this. In many areas L zonata has become rare and endangered as part of that local eco-system. Just because there are some areas where they are still plentiful does not mean the law is invalid. Habits are shrinking and populations are declining. I believe laws should be proactive and not reactive. I never implied you couldn't read. I simply provided factual information and cited my source. Laws become stricter and stricter because people choose to interpret or disregard them according to their own personal interests thus making overall enforcement difficult. I have no problem turning in people for legal violations and have done so on numerous occasions. Yes people have been busted because I dropped dime on them. I am an ethical herper who respects the laws, the purpose of the laws, and the long term consequences of not abiding by them. There is no logical reason for me to apologise if that bothers someone. There is no logical reason for me to apologize if that bothers someone. My priorities lie with conservation of both the animals and the hobby, not with the individual interests of a few.
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Randy
Firehouse Herps

Randy,
In the following, I present a somewhat different perspective for consideration.
In general, I agree with your stance about abiding by existing laws but here I would suggest there are some caveats. As an example, I assume that like almost everyone else, you exceed the posted speed limit. Some municipalities have laws against jay walking. If you were in a city and knew they had such a law and observed a violation, would you report that individual to a police officer?

Well, you might counter that wildlife regulation are different and I would agree with you to a point. But there are wildlife regulations or the interpretation of such regulation by wildlife law enforcement that are every bit as trivial as jay walking or exceeding the posted speed limit by a few miles per hour. In Utah, it is illegal to even touch a controlled (listed) species without a valid permit (called Certificates of Registration or COR). I believe in Calif. it is technically illegal to stop at night to pick up a snake on a road unless you have a valid fishing license. Before I was even aware of such inane laws and the enforcement perspective that interprets such regulations in that manner, I have always stopped to remove a snake from a road in order to potentially save its life.

Up until this year, I have operated under a Calif. Scientific Collecting Permit. But such a permit was for specific species and thus every time I removed a gopher snake or rattlesnake form a highway or dirt road, I discovered (after the fact) that I was in violation of state regulations. I had equipment in my vehicle that is used to retain snakes and it is my understanding that if that is the case and you pick up a snake on the road, immediately you are in violation no matter what intent was involved.

Now admittedly, I have come to the above point of view from the information I have received from individuals living in Calif. and which I believe have a greater understanding of Calif. regulations than I do. If I am wrong, well, no one is perfect.

So that leads me to a second issue of which I have far greater understanding, the subject of population biology. To my knowledge, there are no published accounts in which the overall population of a species has been severely depleted by personal or sports take. You are correct about species taking a hit population wise due to shrinking habitat. But I hope you understand that situation essentially exist for all species, mammals, bird, herps, invertebrates, etc. and has no connection with collecting for recreational use.

You make the claim that "In many areas L. zonata has become rare and endangered as part of that local eco-system." I am not up on the literature dealing with zonata so perhaps you might cite where you obtained your information. I am not aware of any region in Calif. where zonata exists and where the regional populations are now known to be at risk. I know of no scientific publication that would support your claim but again, I could be in error.

And please do not cite as an example that such and such species or population is listed as 'Threatened by the Calif. Dept. of Fish and Game as such designation have very little credibility. The Southern Rubber Boa was originally listed as 'RARE' by the Calif. wildlife agency in 1971 and later changed to 'Threatened'. That action was taken on the basis of few locality records and anecdotal input from a panel of professionals. As such, the listing was not accomplished by acceptable scientific standards and thus was suspect right from the getgo. As it turns out, the SRB is likely to be the most numerically abundant species in the San Bernardino Mts. in its preferred habitat which ranges from about 5800 ft. and above. The same applies to a number of other state listed species not only in Calif. but here in Oregon and in other states as well. The listing of most species by state wildlife agencies has been accomplished without valid scientific processes. In more direct terms, species have been listed in various categories of concern based mostly or solely on what is appropriately termed as junk science.

If, as you mention, your priorities lie with conservation, then we are two of a kind in that regard. But such conservation concerns have to be legitimate and not make-believe as is the case with so many listed species by various state wildlife agencies. But to truly understand conservation, one needs to understand the basic principles that govern the populations of all species. This subject has been hashed over a number of time on this forum and elsewhere. Sorry you missed out on those episodes.

I will simply mention that before concerns are expressed about this or that species, you need to have some idea of 1) the numerical abundance of the species in question and 2) know something about the demand side of the equation. In this way, non-game species are exactly like game and fur bearing species. For example, the demand for the Rubber Boa is rather weak if you monitor the classified ads as I once did on Kingsnake. And with the species numbering in the millions in Calif., I haven't the foggiest idea why there is a bag and possession limit of two specimens in Calif. In Oregon, the species is not managed and one can collect as many as you like and without a license. It has been that way here in Oregon from day one and does anyone believe that the boa population in Oregon is suffering? The species surely numbers in the millions in this state as well.

Let me close with a couple of more thoughts. Besides Oregon, there are other states that due to the immense populations of various herp species and/or for which there is negligible (or no) demand, they see no reason to manage species not in need of being managed. In addition there are at least four states, Nevada, Texas, Louisiana, and Florida, that have commercial seasons on a wide variety of amphibians and reptiles and have been doing so for many decades. There have been some issues with over harvesting of turtles (Alligator Snapper comes and the Am. Alligator come to mind) where in each case, demand exceeded annual supply. And so in each state, they manage such species where demand can produce negative effects on some species of herps and that is the way it should be just as is done for commercial fish, fur bearers, and game fish, game birds, and game mammals.

And last, I urge that you obtain a reprint of the following article which I would make mandatory reading for all state wildlife biologists that have concerns about recreational collecting having a negative effect on species of snakes. "Rattlesnake commercialization: long-term trend issues ,and implications for conservation" by Dr. Lee A. Fitzgerald and Charles W. Painter. Wildlife Society Bulletin, 2000, 28(1): 235-253. Dr. Fitzgerald is a professor of Wildlife Science at Texas A & M University and Mr. Painter is employed by the New Mexico Dept. of Game and Fish.

Richard F. Hoyer

Posted by: rhallman at Mon Jul 4 18:20:52 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I was relaying information that is an important part of the hobby. Laws are laws regardless of how accurately they represent actual native populations. The fact is this. In many areas L zonata has become rare and endangered as part of that local eco-system. Just because there are some areas where they are still plentiful does not mean the law is invalid. Habits are shrinking and populations are declining. I believe laws should be proactive and not reactive. I never implied you couldn't read. I simply provided factual information and cited my source. Laws become stricter and stricter because people choose to interpret or disregard them according to their own personal interests thus making overall enforcement difficult. I have no problem turning in people for legal violations and have done so on numerous occasions. Yes people have been busted because I dropped dime on them. I am an ethical herper who respects the laws, the purpose of the laws, and the long term consequences of not abiding by them. There is no logical reason for me to apologise if that bothers someone. There is no logical reason for me to apologize if that bothers someone. My priorities lie with conservation of both the animals and the hobby, not with the individual interests of a few.
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Randy
Firehouse Herps

As usual you are the voice of reason Richard. Excellant post. Not much to add to it.
Link

Richard Hoyer is a very eloquent gentleman, and he really knows what he talks about, so I'd encourage you to read his reply. But, I tend to be blunt and to the point, and since I wrote the BOOK on mountain kingsnakes, I just want to know where you got the ridiculous idea that ANY zonata populations are nearly extirpated, or near extinction, or even lacking more than 5 snakes a year? What are YOU talking about? You get on here like some kind of information dispenser, and you just made a big fool of yourself. Go read my book, and then you might come close to understanding L. zonata. Answer me if you can back up those lame statements you made.

Brian Hubbs
tricolorbrian@hotmail.com

I highly respect Richard Hoyer and his contributions. I may not agree 100% with everything he has stated but discrepancies are few and not that significant. It is a pleasure to read his material, to hear from him, and to correspond with him (he has helped me with information in the past). Those points where I may not completely agree with him I still consider highly intelligent, thought out, and academically valid points worthy of consideration and influence. In reading his post I do not consider Mr. Hoyer and myself to be in opposition on any overall issue. He is indeed insightful.

I stand by every statement I have made either as my personal perspective or as information to be passed along. I have attempted to present both within their appropriate category. I will make one contextual clarification here. Where I said that in “many places L. zonata has become rare or endangered…” my meaning might have been clearer to some had I said that in some areas numbers have declined. Certain terms are relative in their meaning. I did not mean to imply that many meant most or that endangered as used in that sentence meant legal status. I do agree with the conclusion (or theory if you will) of multiple researchers and field people that human activity, including that of hobbyists, has had a negative impact on some populations or areas and that the degree of this impact is not homogenous in all areas or on all species within a given area. I do not believe that just because a species remains numerous elsewhere in its range, concerns in other areas should be disregarded. I further believe that conservation should be proactive and not reactive. I will continue to post elsewhere to clarify my positions and philosophies regarding these and other issues, as well as share and obtain information from others. I accept and respect disagreement and I will address appropriate questions and exchanges. I will ignore rude, hostile, and “unprofessional” attacks and outbursts in postings and e-mails.

Randy Hallman

Randy says: "The fact is this. In many areas L zonata has become rare and endangered as part of that local eco-system."

Where in the world did you get the facts to support this statement. I encourage you to share these "facts", not the heresay, with the rest of us. Your statements alone don't mean crap. The local eco-system indeed...has anyone seen how he got punked on the California Mountain Kinsnake Forum (the sub-forum of the Kingsnake forum). Good reading there for sure folks.

It appears (and seems clear to me at least) that by many of his post here and elsewhere, he is only posting to push his propaganda of ultra conservative, almost PETA type, conservation hangups.

Please read my previous post. I explained that comment in the context intended. As for my personal philosophy I am not an ultra-conservative. I am more of a centrist. I would like to preserve the hobby to maintain as much access to as many species as possible for the hobbyist. I do believe that many laws are excessively strict but they are laws and should be observed (or they will get worse). I believe that if a law is in error it is better that it errs on the side of the animal, not the collector. I believe one of the most significant threats to the collecting community in terms of regulations is in fact the noticeable amount of unethical and illegal operators within the hobby. Before anyone starts a hostile barrage...I am not saying these are a majority of the community. If I may be cliché for a moment…It does not take many rotten apples to spoil the barrel.
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Randy
Firehouse Herps

No, according to the written regulations it is one zonata per person.

Zonata 4. Average-looking male adult, 22”.

low band mtn.kings are my favorites.
jeff

Zonata 5. This is one of the homlier ones I’ve found. I think it’s a recapture of one I saw a couple of weeks ago but didn‘t inspect. Female, 20”.

Even the ugly ones are great. And that bottae seems perfect too.
Nice!

Dear bluerosy,

Whoever you are I'll answer your questions here for everybody to see. If my responses seem harsh I apologize but you've clearly been away for too long and don't know how the laws have changed over the years. Older reptile store operators talk about how they used to pick up this or that species by the basketful and breed them in their garages and then release the offspring. Nowadays you get in a jackpot for merely helping someone else manage an ongoing research-based collection. Go figger... So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not rip you too badly over your suggestion that I sell animals to you or keep an eye out for others who might.

1) I have never heard of a collector named Bill Horn. If I had, and I knew that he was taking more than the legal limit of any animal, be it reptile, insect, flower, or bird, I would report him to the authorities.

2) It is illegal to ship protected species out of state, especially pursuant to an offer to pay for them (or trade for something else, which amounts to the same thing). In case you haven't noticed, I don't agree with the whole idea of profiting from trade in protected species. If you legally breed exotics more power to you, but if the practice constitutes breaking the law you're on your own and I hope you get shut down.

3) There are many dams around here. If the one to which you are referring is one of those that are on state property, even being there would be illegal let alone removing animals. I once got yelled at by a University of California cop for merely parking on a certain road to take a leak in the bushes, so I'm not about to go tresspassing around where I don't belong if I happen to have a sceloperus in my bag that I caught somewhere else.

I hope this answers your questions.

SA

....dude....get a grip, we all get solicited once inawhile...growup & deal w/ it. Dont be a cyber-narc. You dont know who sent you squat...fake email domains/forwarded servers etc. so try to show some class....decline illegal offers, keep your own nose clean & try not to go about picking others for them.
BTW....nice photos...good to see your not a total loss...