Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wondering how many of you guys actually keep anti venom for the snakes you keep....i am talking private people here...not zoos and similar places. I just saw it mentioned in a post and have seen it several times before on the forum so i thought i would ask.

Jason: You will probably not get many affirmative answers. Anyone who keeps exotic hots ought to have his own source of antivenin, be it serum he has purchased or through an anti-venom bank. Having to rely on a local zoo is not a wise idea. Using their supply puts their employees at risk. Then there's always the possibility that someone else has beaten you to it, & the supply is not there.

~~Greg~~

This is one of my biggest beefs with the private sector keeping hots who do not keep their own A/V (which is probably about 99% of private venomous keepers). They show no regard to facilities and their staff, such as mine, who do keep A/V and then gut our supplies when they do something stupid. We had our entire supply of a particular A/V gutted due to an irresponsible private owner. Now, we are having difficulty getting it replenished and its putting our own staff at risk. Don't get me wrong, I am 100% in support of private ownership of venomous reptiles AS LONG AS certain requirements, via permits, are in place that include any private individual requiring to either have their own A/V, or, become a member of a regional A/V bank.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Jason: You will probably not get many affirmative answers. Anyone who keeps exotic hots ought to have his own source of antivenin, be it serum he has purchased or through an anti-venom bank. Having to rely on a local zoo is not a wise idea. Using their supply puts their employees at risk. Then there's always the possibility that someone else has beaten you to it, & the supply is not there.
>>
>> ~~Greg~~
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

So when you do have to use your supply in cases like that do you get any reinbursment for it?
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

I don't know about the Wildlife Discovery Center,
but at the zoo I work for, if we send antivenin to a hospital,we bill the hospital for the AV, and the hospital bills the patient for the AV.

Randal Berry

That's exactly what we do too. Its not so much getting reimbursed that's the problem, its replenishing out A/V stock that oftentimes becomes very difficult; particularly with the imported brands.

>>I don't know about the Wildlife Discovery Center,
>>but at the zoo I work for, if we send antivenin to a hospital,we bill the hospital for the AV, and the hospital bills the patient for the AV.
>>
>>Randal Berry
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I can see completely that it is not the price of the anti-venom that is the problem with that. I was just curious about that part of it, honestly with some health care I would expect reinbursment to be a possible problem. I'd hate to see what my HMO would do if I got bit! Yet another reason I stay away from keeping hots!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

I figured hardly anyone has any of there own....i imagine price is a big issue....i dont know what it costs but i imagine its not cheap. How do you decide how much to have anyway?

Yes, it is expensive. As far as quantity goes, it would depend upon the species & its size. Off the top of my shiny head, I'd say ten vials minimum, ten times that to be somewhat safe for a really big snake.

~~Greg~~

If you were to say keep around 10 vials minimum, about how much would that be in cash? Also, how frequently does it have to be replaced?

Just thought I would ask.

Thanks,

Chris

AV cost, shelf life and quantities are very specific to the type of sera needed.
SAIMR for example which covers all of the major snakes of medical importance. (the ones that cause the most bites in most of Africa, which also happens to be the same species that are most commonly kept as "pets" Gaboons, Rhinos, Puffs, most Mambas, some Spitters etc.
One could aquire enough for an average to severe envenomation from any of the above for around 6-700 dollars. Replacing it every 2-4 years or so depending on how fresh it was when aquired.
Pretty small price to pay for a hobby one is serious about!

The only outragiously expensive sera is that for Australian species and our own American made, wonderfully worthless U.S. CroFab
T-

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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

700 bucks?? Thats it....geeeze thats alot cheaper than i thought it would cost..i was guessing thousands
Can anyone buy it?

That's pretty cheap when you think that if your hobby was car racing, how much does one spend on safety equipment there?

Although that serum is cheap, there is a lot of "red tape" to go through in order to get it. Like others from the zoos said before, it's not so much the cost as it is just being able to get it. If you could imagine, there are a lot more people in Africa who actually live in the snake's natural habitat and actually are at risk of being bitten by these snakes every day even though they're not handling them. I think that takes priority for the AV over the Americans who just want to keep them in a cage for whatever reasons (not saying that keeping them is always a bad thing).

Crofab on the other hand is quite expensive, around $1200 a vial, with an average rattlesnake bite starting off needing around 12 vials (and if anything else, it's usually only more than 12). So an average bite could easily end up costing over $20k in the AV alone, not to mention the ambulance or helicopter ride there (depending on where you get bit) and the hospital stay etc etc.

And as mentioned before, the crofab is somewhat specific to how well it works with certain snakes. There have been Southern Paciffic bites take over 40 vials. I'd hate to see that bill.

Hope this helped...
-Will

I guess the question is......... is the antivenom cheaper for the African group of snakes because it's easier to produce than antivenom for American species (CroFab) and Australian species.......... or is it because America and Australia are "developed" countries, ie. richer, and therefore "can afford to" pay more for antivenom......... Just wondering how that works..........

Lisa

>>Although that serum is cheap, there is a lot of "red tape" to go through in order to get it. Like others from the zoos said before, it's not so much the cost as it is just being able to get it. If you could imagine, there are a lot more people in Africa who actually live in the snake's natural habitat and actually are at risk of being bitten by these snakes every day even though they're not handling them. I think that takes priority for the AV over the Americans who just want to keep them in a cage for whatever reasons (not saying that keeping them is always a bad thing).
>>
>>Crofab on the other hand is quite expensive, around $1200 a vial, with an average rattlesnake bite starting off needing around 12 vials (and if anything else, it's usually only more than 12). So an average bite could easily end up costing over $20k in the AV alone, not to mention the ambulance or helicopter ride there (depending on where you get bit) and the hospital stay etc etc.
>>
>>And as mentioned before, the crofab is somewhat specific to how well it works with certain snakes. There have been Southern Paciffic bites take over 40 vials. I'd hate to see that bill.
>>
>>Hope this helped...
>>-Will

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Lisa
Living Earth Environmental Education
@__/ __/ __ / __==< :>--

No, not just anyone. Serum is a controlled substance, an experimental drug, because it is manufactured in another country.
The FDA stance has implemented standards because of this, which has made it difficult for just anyone to buy.

The keeper must locate a doctor who is willing to submit his curricula vitae and participate in the program. This is difficult, and this is why so many hobbyists haven't entertained the idea of stocking their own serum. Problems arise as their are accidents, and institutions stocking the life saving serum are called forth as moral obligation. Further problems arise as they are left footing all expenses for the serum. In turn, problems arise for the private keeper as these institutions can't reason logically why there shouldn't be restrictive legislation prohibiting the private keeper from keeping venomous.

Many have become very angry with Jim Harrison, who supports private keeping, but if you had lost as much money as he has, there comes a time when you must do what is best for yourself. The man milks venomous snakes for a living, and he is at greatest risk of snakebite. He is sick of our hobby taking and stiffing him on his serum.

Dr. Edward J. Freyaldenhoven
University of Texas/Biological Sciencess

Rob, I can't believe I actually forgot to ask, but I've never actually seen antivenom before. Can you post a picture of what the vial looks like, purely for curiosity sake?

Here ya go...