Reptile & Amphibian Forums

That is fine with me. I really don't like it and wish people wouldn't do it but hey, it's a free country and if that is what they want to do, then so be it. BUT! If they are going to do it then they should certainly list the animal as such. Prime example is the snake that some guy is trying to currently pass off as an alterna on the Gray banded classifieds. I could be worng, but damn, that snake looks genetically jacked to me. When the dude (Piedmont Reptiles) first listed the animal, I emailed him and politely gave him my opinion of the snake and how it looks like it is a product of crossing two species together (alterna and something else???). He has again listed it, and again did not mention the snakes genetic standing. People passing off genetically jacked animals without telling others is going to really screw up someone's collection someday. I guess that's why it's always a good idea to buy your animals as locality specifics from reputable dealers.

Brad

It used to be that classified section was for locality gray-bands only. I'm not sure what happened to that rule, but it surely is not enforced anymore. I'll have to ask Jeff about it next time I get a chance.

While we are on the subject of rants....

Why on earth does everyone hunt the exact same places year after year? I bet there are no less than 21 counties in Texas you could find an alterna in, yet everyone goes up 277, Juno, Sanderson, River Road, Davis, etc.

Somebody go find an alterna from one of these counties please:
Real, Uvalde, Kimble, Schleicher, Ward, Loving. There is yet one more county I did not list out of respect for the person who told me about a specimen from there. I'll let him verify it and report it if he wants.

and I found a Reeves county animal last August, so you can skip that one

I bet there are several reasons that factor into that answer. First of all, many people have either acquired animals from those localities and want to continue with that locality or they simply like the way they look from there. Of course, much of the reason is because of ease of finding them. If I make it out in September, I'll be hunting the Huecos, does that count? LOL. Of course, I will also spend some time on the river too. I love the look of the animals from these localities, that's why I look in these areas. However, you never know what your gonna get from some of the other counties you mentioned, and no matter what, they are always little gems.

Good rant though. If I ever get the time in the field that many others have, I will likely spend more time in other counties myself.

Brad

out-of-staters that spend over a grand on gas just to get here and feel like they have to hit up 277 langtry of Juno just to find one.

But I can't forgive myself for spending about 20 years on Juno lol

Additionally, if you own land and want to keep going back to it to herp, that's cool.

As well what you said, just liking the animals from those locals. I still think 277 probably has (some of) the best looking alterna anywhere.

It's nice to head out to other spots too though, and not see another soul for days.

Huecos don't count as being overhunted. I don't believe they are. I do find it hard to believe that none of those El Paso herpers ever find alterna there. I bet they do and just never said boo about it. We have to keep reminding ourselves that a lot of stuff goes on out there that we never hear about. We do catch wind of a lot of happenings, but we aren't privy to everything.

Forky

I do find it hard to believe that none of those El Paso herpers ever find alterna there. I bet they do and just never said boo about it.

Frankly there isn't much good accessible habitat in the Huecos. Almost every Hueco Mtn snake ever has been taken on private land and I'm not sure how many (if any) of those were taken legally.

I lived in EP for a number of years and in the time I was there I talked to a lot of knowledgeable people about Hueco Mtn alterna. The few specimens I know about are the one caught in a snap trap, the one taken by Alec Knight (in EP county), one found by Danny L. on the Gasline road (the "kid" who found one), and a few (4?) taken by Dan Johnson (?) who spent some time out there hiking (on whose land....I don't know).

I have spent a lot of time in the Huecos at night. Alterna is a very rare snake at that corner of its range. It isn't nearly as common as further east or south. I don't think it is lack of effort or secrecy. I just don't think they are very common.

There is a reasonably well travelled highway that traverses the Huecos and there are a total of zero roadkill alterna recorded for that road (the one EP county record was "questionably" found in the rest area about 20 yards into the county, so that might be the only record for the highway).

I think your odds are much better of getting one in the Quitmans, where there is a public road with some decent habitat.

Another problem with that part of the range is that during the "peak" activity season (May-June), it almost never rains in far western Texas. Even when the RR and VV county are getting early summer thundershowers, EP is high and dry.
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Chris Harrison
Does anyone else here think that these scrolling signature lines are stupid?

I just tried to send you an e-mail but the sandboa address bounced....

drop me an e-mail pretty please.

Thanks
Jose

Chris,
I know a person that chooses to remain un-named that has found at least two hueco's (I'm sure he'll read this within a day or so). According to him, it took MANY nights of looking. I've personally hunted there off of gasline and the surrounding areas and have found a total of ZERO. You're right though, in May and June when it's the peak season more eastward, I rarely saw rain. Then in August when it clouds up almost every day (and rains sometime) I guess they don't move as much. The highlights of my hueco hunts have always been leps and subocs. The Quitmans I can't figure. I've found every other documented spps. in those mountains but as of yet, I've found no alterna and I've hunted those mountains 100's of times. Of course, most of my hunting was road cruising when I shoulda been out shining cuts and walking the canyons more. It seems like every time I did shine cuts or walk canyons, I ran into the "Southern Element". Ask Russ Cormack; he and I hunted a whopping 15 to 20 minutes one night shining cuts in the Quitmans and bam! We litterally found two illegals on a cut we were shining in a canyon. Unfortunately running into illegals and dope runners while on foot at 3AM can prove problematic so I tended to drive more than shine. Quitman Canyon is a heavily used route for these folks. So anyone going there to hunt might be better served hunting from a vehicle. If on foot, they might decide they need your ride more than you. My favorite place to hunt in Hudspeth was the Eagle Mountains. I know Dr. Scudday (SRSU) caught an alterna in a trap there way back when but I haven't had the luck. If one does decide to hit the Quitmans, there is a canyon locally known as smugglers gap that has some awesome habitat and miles of it. A large group of herpers would be the ticket. The leps from there are an awesome VERY light pink and the subocs can be almost orange. Just get permission from the owners and let the BP know you're gonna be down there so they don't get excited about your presence. They don't call it smugglers gap for nothing
Jason
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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

Good thing the bag limit for illegals was 2 back then or we would have had to let one go. LOL!

RUSS

were all found on the Hwy 62/180 walking cuts later in the year a couple of days after rains . . .

Troy

Real - I don't think so

Uvalde - probably, but you'd get awfully bored walking the one cut on 55 and the other 334 LOL (private land is where its at here, I'm afraid)

Sliecher - ? doubtful

Sutton - almost certainly

Kimble - my suspiscion is that there is a dispersal barrier between the Devils/Nueces drainages and the Llano River drainage

Ward - maybe a few spots along the river, but its really marginal

Loving ? even more doubtful than Ward, IMHO

To answer the Why? question, though . . .

Some nights, I'm interested in "exploring", others, I'm interested in just hunting and seeing what I can see. I'm off for 277 tonight, but may hunt on 377 a bit, too . . . so that's a little bit of "exploring" as it were . . . LOL

Troy

something happened which promted that county list....

Real... check that 335... I don't see how they can be in the Nueces drainage and not be at least right across the county line into Real.

Schleicher... just north of 277, I'm pretty confident on this one too

Uvalde... I agree, but if they are here why not Real again?

Kimble... there are 30 year old rumomrs of alterna from Telegraph. It's possible and I buy that one too.

Ward and Loving... these I would have the most trouble with but there is a precedent which prompted me to include these counties.

Bottom line is that no one looks in most of these places. You are in a prime position to check out a few of them, why don't you go prove me a good prognasticator.

Why not Real?

335 - this is mostly in Edwards Co - the Real Section is mostly rockless and very wooded - I've hunted here quite a bit . . . lots of Bairdi, lots of Alligator Lizards, Lots of Slimy Salamanders - honestly, I think its too wet and too shaded for alterna . . . the local collector I know around here (he's into hots) has also never found Lepidus there

337 - between Leakey and Camp Wood - leps are there, as are bairdi and alligator lizards, so far no Salamanders . . . but I still think these slopes are way too shaded for alterna, but its your best bet for the county

The difference between Real and Uvalde is the amount of tree cover - Real is pretty darn cedar-choked and Uvalde is mostly rocky hillsides covered in Purple Sage - more like Val Verde County south of the 377/277 junction - which is still fairly marginal

Sliecher - As I recall, the canyons peter out right about the Sutton Co line - most of Sliecher Co is high grassland (the divide country) - great habitat for Milks and Many-lined skinks, but (unless its on private land) I haven't seen any alterna habitat there

Until someone puts a specimen in my hands, I view the Telegraph possibilities as extremely slight.

Honestly, the only Counties that I would expect to find alterna where they haven't yet are as follows:

Uvalde (right along 55)
Otero Co, NM - north of Del City

One other consideration for your list . . . Mike Forstner supposedly caught a suboc on 277 in Dimmitt Co near Carrizo Springs . . . just a thought.

The funny thing about all of this speculation is that folks often look out their backyards and think "this looks like alterna habitat" and wonder why they aren't there (I've heard "why not Big Springs . . . Why not San Antonio . . . etc) but one thing we have to recognize is that there are barriers to their dispersal out there - my opinion is that somewhere it gets too forested, the outcrops and ground get too wet during the winter, and/or, the ground gets to where its not fractured enough.

I think that where I'm at right now is too wet in the winter (I've got Slimy Salamanders) for alterna . . . I think somewhere in Uvalde Co, we loose rock fracture and/or it gets too wet again (Plethodon at Garner).

Troy

Devil's sinkhole is for all practical purposes at the top of that road. Alterna will be found there, wether they are across the Real county line or not is a crap shoot.

I don't think the amount of ground cover makes a bit of difference, especially after you see alterna habitat around Monterrey Mexico. How wet and or fractured the ground is may be another story.

You are right that at some point an alterna is sitting right now and that animal represents the furthest east one could be found (in Texas).

Just remember that because we haven't found them, doesn't mean they aren't there. Ask Barker how many nights he walked the rest area on 277 and didn't find an alterna. He didn't have the confidence to keep hunting it. Some folks can herp Juno year after year and not find an alterna, then BAM.....

Just keep your eyes peeled, like I said you are in a prime position by proximity to find a Uvalde specimen or even a Real if you are lucky.

Best
Joe

did you see last night?

the other hunters out (that I spoke to) only saw a DOR hypsiglena.

Funny on the Barking frogs . . . I saw two on 377 night before last, and one on 277 last night . . . all late (like 3-4 am) and these are the first ones I've ever seen on cuts . . . I was thinking that humidity increased to the point that amphibs came out, maybe an alterna would but no joy.

Troy

I know that there was supposedly an alterna found at Devil's Sinkhole, but it doen't appear on "dot maps" for Edwards Co (there are Carta Valley and a County Rd off of 674). Now I know Dixon's dot maps just represent museum specimens, and that there are some missing "dots", but what's the story on this animal?

Troy

I'll see if I can dig up the reference for you...

Joe

Here's what I found out.

The Devil's Sinkhole snake is refernced in Tennant 1984 - foot note 4: Just NE of Rocksprings, Clarence McCoy captured the most easterly recorded alterna - another very large male - in a Cave of the Devil's Sinkhole.

Under the heading for SIZE Tennant references a 57¾" alterna from 17 miles west of Rocksprings, also by Clarence McCoy, but in the summer of 1967.

The only reference papar attributed to McCoy is Gehlbach and McCoy 1965. That's two years prior to the snake referenced in Tennants SIZE heading. Gehlbach and McCoy 1965 references a Dunbar cave alterna, but not a Devil's Sinkhole alterna.

Dixon and Werler just happen to quote that 57¾" snake as the maximum size of an alterna, but probably no where else do they even acknowledge Tennant exists. (Bibliography maybe).

My next step is to have Gerry get a hold of Tennant and see if the Devil's Sinkhole snake was in error, or if it was something that was comminicated with him personally. Either way Tennant clearly attributes the snake to NE of Rocksprings and by Clarence McCoy.

I'm anxiously awaiting the answers

Forky

Gehlbach and McCoy 1965 references a Dunbar cave alterna, but not a Devil's Sinkhole alterna.

it's actually Gehlbach and Baker 1962 that reference the Dunbar Cave animal. Found in the summer of 1960 23 miles SW of Rocksprings UMMZ122688.

I was amazed at the personal communications they added that were obvious errors. Mainly the error was to credit a certain individual for the snakes, and having been involved in a project like this I can see how it can happen, but they are errors.

There are many Museum specimens overlooked by them as well. That what happens when you are responsible for all species accounts instead of just one, I guess.

>>I know that there was supposedly an alterna found at Devil's Sinkhole, but it doen't appear on "dot maps" for Edwards Co (there are Carta Valley and a County Rd off of 674). Now I know Dixon's dot maps just represent museum specimens, and that there are some missing "dots", but what's the story on this animal?
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>>Troy