Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm really looking forward to thayeri clutch and baby pics and I know I'm not the only one.
Does anyone have any babies yet?

John, could you post all your imformation on the new L. webbi species here in this forum?
I found the new L. webbi species to be quite interesting that new king like this was discovered and the possibility of more.
Happy Herping,
Uncloudy

Robert Bryson Jr. was on Mexican Hwy 40 last year and stumbled upon what is now considered the newest lampropeltis. It amazingly resembles what one would think a Pyro X Mexmex would look like.
The specimen was found DOR on Hwy 40 near the Durango / Sinoloa border. The new ssp. is named Lampropeltis Webbi.
If anyone wants to email me I could send a pdf of the Bryson et al paper concerning the new lampropeltis. It is very intersting.
The neatest thing is that there are new snakes being found in this day and age....there could possibly be more.
Robert Hansen knows more than I do about the matter....I wish he could elaborate some on the DNA evidence and such.....BOB??

As for babies hatching.....Not yet....I am sure there will be plenty of posters sharing pics next month or so.....I Know I will.
John Lassiter

Thanks John.
I still can't wait for the baby pics.
I tried to link the L. webbi pic to this forum and couldn't figure it out.
Good luck with all the babies,
Uncloudy

Your are welcome....
It is best to share others' pics via email anyway...If you know what I mean. Bryson's paper is open to the public and is published.

I can't wait for babies this year. I think July 11th or around there I will have some babies pip eggs. Splendida babies though.
They are from a wild collected pair from my area...I enjoy working with native species I collect myself almost as much as Mexicana.
John Lassiter

Lampropeltis webbi certainly represents an exciting new chapter in the "book of kingsnakes." In late June 2000 (not last year), Rob Bryson, Deron Hartman, and Javier Banda encountered a sub-adult female kingsnake freshly hit on Mexican Hwy 40 near the Sinaloa/Durango border. Hwy 40 is the road that runs from Mazatlan to Ciudad Durango--up from the subtropical lowlands along the Pacific Coast and winding into mountain forests and finally to the arid central Mexican plateau. Dozens of herpetologists have traversed this highway for many years, in part because the rarish Mexican long-tailed rattlesnake (Crotalus stejnegeri) is known from an area near the highway.

So, they found this fresh-hit DOR, took tissue samples for later DNA work, and preserved the specimen--not immediately recognizing this particular snake as anything new. In fact, they published a brief note in Herp. Review reporting a range extension for this specimen as a Lampropeltis mexicana. However, once Bryson (who was independently examining relationships among the mexicana-group kingsnakes for his master's thesis) ran the mitochondrial DNA from this specimen and other Lampropeltis species, it was apparent that this Hwy 40 animal was unique. MtDNA results place this snake in a group with, but quite distinct from, L. pyromelana (L. p. pyromelana and L. p. knoblochi were used for this analysis). It is more distantly related to things like greeri and mexicana.

Aside from the Hwy 40 specimen that Bryson et al. found, it turns out there was a second DOR, found on Hwy 40 about 10 km from the other specimen, in August 1968 by a group affiliated with the Forth Worth Museum of Science and History, and they had the presence of mind to preserve this snake. However, because the museum in Fort Worth is small and not known as a repository of numerous herpetological specimens, this preserved kingsnake remained effectively "hidden" from researchers for many years. However, once Bryson learned of its existence, a comparison was made to his new snake, and it was apparent they belonged to the same species.

In terms of morphology, the new species is distinct from L. pyromelana knoblochi (the southernmost form of that species in the Sierra Madre Occidental) based on snout coloration (black vs. white), fewer white body rings, and a different head pattern. From L. mexicana, the new species differs in the number of ventral and subcaudal scales and body pattern.

Thus, on both morphological and molecular grounds, this snake is different from southernmost pyromelana and the nearest forms of L. mexicana (including greeri and mexicana mexicana). Incidentally, the species name, webbi, honors Texas herpetologist Robert Webb (emeritus professor at UT El Paso), the foremost authority on the herpetofauna of Durango and the describer of greeri.

You can email me (rwh13@csufresno.edu) or John for a pdf file of the species description, if interested.

Cheers,

Bob

Bob,
I and I am sure other appreciate your interpretation of the paper.
I did goof and mention it was found last year...oops.
Great news and thanks for chiming in here Bob.
John Lassiter

Thanks for posting the interesting information Mr. Hanson on this new species.

Are there any live specimens of this new species being kept by any repositories or zoos in the US or Mexico?

The only known specimens that can be confidently assigned to this species are both sitting in jars...one in Nuevo Leon, the other in Fort Worth. Considering how many herp folks have spent time along that Hwy 40 corridor, these appear to be very uncommon snakes--or at least the stretch of Hwy 40 that intersects their range might not be prime habitat. There are no live specimens in any collection that we know of, but I'm sure that publication of this paper will generate interest in finding more!

Bob

Let's get Alan Kardon from the San Antonio Zoo down there to find some and get them breeding here in the US....Maybe we can make their population grow here in our hobby....
Just a thought.....

On another note.....How many people will be crossing Mexmex with Pyros again to produce manmade Webbi? I know these will not be even close to the real thing, but I know how some breeders are.

Here is one I still don't know exactly what it is. I do know what it is supposed to be or what it was sold to me as.....
John Lassiter

Since no knows live subjects of the L. webbi species have been found, but it has been proven they exist;

Would that make the L. webbi a highly threatened or endangered species?
Or just unknown today to the extent of the population of L. webbi?

I agree with John's thought that if live one's are discovered a breeding pair ought to be kept by a zoo or professional organization to preserve the genetically proven uniqueness of this new species.
Great info. ty,
Uncloudy

..........I mentioned Alan Kardon from the San Antonio Zoo is because he is the only one I know of that can get the permit(s) to bring live specimens from Mexico into the US.
It seems though that they ARE pretty rare.....Hell only 2 have been found in 32 years and both were found DOR. It would be awesome to have them in our collections but I think it is nearly impossible right now.
Who has read the paper in its entirety besides Bob?
It is very interesting that it falls in between Pyromelana and Mexicana......Does anyone else see the "tridot" head pattern characteristic of Mexmex? How about the dot behind the jaw remniscent of some greeri and Mexmex?
Alot of people have told me that it looks like an ole pyro or knob, but I see mexicana influence in it myself. I have looked at many mexicana over the last few years.
The head shape looks unlike pyro to me as well.
I think this specimen was found in an isolated valley surrounded by elevated mountains. I would love to see a map that pinpoints the location it was found......Is it available?
John Lassiter

The section of Hwy 40 where the two specimens were found (about 10 km apart) traverses extremely rugged "barranca" country with abundant vegetation. I seriously doubt that L. webbi is endangered in any sense of that word. Rather, the road intersects a small portion of its range, which lies within an otherwise very rugged, heavily vegetated, and lightly populated region. Good luck finding this snake in the field! Most likely, this species occurs throughout the upper Pacific slopes of the Sierra Madre in a band corresponding to the Mixed Boreal-Tropical plant community.

For those with an interest, there is an excellent paper by Robert Webb (for whom L. webbi is named)--"Herpetogeography in the Mazatlan-Durango region of the Sierra Madre Occidental, Mexico" (published in 1984 in a volume called "Vertebrate Ecology and Systematics: A Tribute to Henry S. Fitch" [edited by R. A. Seigel et al.], published by the University of Kansas Museum of Natural History; you can check used booksellers for a copy). Webb provides a nice description of the region's topography and vegetation, and includes b/w photos of "Mixed Boreal-Tropical" forest. Here is a brief excerpt of Webb's description of this area: "The Mixed Boreal-Tropical covers rugged, mountainous terrain at the highest elevations in large barrancas and canyons, and is best developed on south-facing slopes. Steep, boulder-strewn hillsides with rock outcrops, interrupted by small, relatively level areas, are covered in most places with a tall pine-oak woodland and often a dense understory of herbs, shrubs, and thick tangles of vines.... This region occurs for approximately 51 km (32 mi) along Highway 40 between elevations of ...7900 and 5900 ft...."

Interestingly, Lampropeltis mexicana greeri occurs in the Pine-Oak woodland farther east, beyond the crest of the Sierra Madre, in a much cooler, drier setting.

Eventually, as with most species, live material will make its way into Mexican or US zoo collections, with excess material being made available to private parties...some day.

As for maps of the region, there are topographic maps for many parts of Mexico, but to my knowledge these are not online; a quick Google search will yield several vendors who will sell you topo sheets for specific areas.

Bob

I've been waiting five years for Rob Bryson to publish his paper before sharing my photos of the holotype. These were taken about 3 to 4 weeks after it was found. Its color was still very good and not faded from the preservative. Gerry Salmon and I examined it for quite a while. We kept saying, "What the heck is this???" I thought it looked like a knoblochi x mex-mex. NEAT SNAKE!! Dan

After reading Rob's paper, I was very pleased to see in APPENDIX 1 the thayeri Gerry and I found near Iturbide (UANL 5773) was used in Rob's molecular analysis.

Here's a photo of the head.......what do you think?

Dan

that the L. Webbi looks like a mex-mex x knob. Very interesting.

Since you've had 5 years to mull this over have you tried breeding mex-mex x knoblochi to see what they look like?

Does anyone have some pics of mex-mex x knoblochi they would like to share here?

Thanks for sharing the pics, Dan

...one incredible kingsnake, and what an interesting story. I am really excited about finally being able to see it and add the photos to my files. Looking at this animal I can only imagine the interesting variability that it displays within it's populations. Something we may never in our lifetimes get to experience.

What a mystery.....

Mike!!!!!
Where have you been man?
Nice to see you're still ticking......
Cheers,
John Lassiter

... I just keep goin', and goin', and goin'... just way too busy these days to share thoughts here with everyone. Always reading and keeping up with issues but not enough time most days to sit for very long. I love this place here in the kingsnake forums so no fear, I will never leave!

Check this one out, you haven't seen him for a while. Go to my gallery via the link below for the full size view...

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=221936&size=big

Thanks for the great pics Dan.
Hopefully, we will all be hearing more information about this new interesting L. webbi in the future.
Happy Herping,
Uncloudy

Hi Uncloudy

No baby thayeri just yet but my first clutch is due approx. July 4th. I'll make sure to post some pipping pics next week. I'm excited to see what would come out of lil' orbs. My 2 females that produced they eggs that's due soon appears to have another clutch coming. One just had another prelay shed yesterday. Here we go! Take care.
-----
Jonel @ Selective Propagations
www.spsnakes.com

I can't wait to see some of your baby thayeri myself.
It is going to be X-mas in the summertime for all of us breeding these variable kingsnakes.
John Lassiter

.

No Babies yet but first clutch is not far away.....45 days so far.
Jim