Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, so I have heard that CA residents are only supposed to have one zonata, and they have to have a fishing license, but does that apply per household or per person? My boyfriend and I both have fishing licenses, but we live in the same house. So does that mean we can have two, or only one? If we could have two, are there permits we could get to breed them (without intent of selling) and how would we go about getting such permits?
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SNAKES
1.2 albino cal kings
1.0 het albino bananna
0.0.3 albino banannas
1.1 mexican blacks
1.1.1 knoblochi
1.1 pyros
1.2 mex mex
1.1 66% het hypo durangos
1.1 sinaloan milks
1.1 het hypo tangerines
1.1 cornsnakes (ghost, okeete)
0.1 albino ruthven
1.1 thayeri
GECKOS
1.1 snows
0.1 bell albino
3.1 leusistics
0.1 hypo tangerine
0.1 tremper giant albino tangerine
1.1 normals
2.1 tokays
1.2 crocodiles
1.1 african fat-tails

You can have one zonata per person with each valid fishing license. So in your case you can have a total of two. If you breed them, you would have to get rid of the babies. Once the babies hatch out, are you over limit? Technically yes I suppose. I hear through the grapevine that California might add zonatas to the captive breeding permit. I'm not holding my breath on this one though. There is no reason not to add them. They are very common. Here is a picture of some agalma that I hatched out last year. Since these are not native to California, you may have as many as you like. They're a great way to satisfy anyone's desire to keep legal zonata in California.

I have some more on the way this year.

Link

thanks for the info. i really wanted to get some baja mountain kings but didn't think i could keep those either. if i get a pair of them can i breed them? and if we were to keep a pair of zonata from california (not coastal or san diego) could we breed them and release the babies. or donate them.
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SNAKES
1.2 albino cal kings
1.0 het albino bananna
2.1 albino banannas
1.1 mexican blacks
1.1.1 knoblochi
1.1 pyros
1.2 mex mex
1.1 66% het hypo durangos
1.1 sinaloan milks
1.1 het hypo tangerine hondurans
1.1 cornsnakes (ghost, okeete)
0.1 albino ruthven
1.1 thayeri
GECKOS
1.1 snow leopard geckos
0.1 albino leopard gecko
2.1 leusistics
0.1 hypo tangerine
0.1 tremper giant albino tangerine
1.1 normal leopard geckos
2.1 tokays
1.1 african fat-tails
1.1.2 crested geckos (fires, red, yellow dalmation)

You can keep the Baja subspecies of zonata legally in California and keep as many as you like. Again on the native California subspecies, you may have one per person with a valid fishing license. If you choose to breed the two native ones together and produce babies then you would have to gift them away or release them. You don't want to release them back into the wild according to the Fish & Game regs although I don't see the difference between raising and stocking fish like trout and hatching out a few mountain kings and releasing them into your favorite rock pile. This issue has been discussed ad nauseum in the past. I am not a biologist or anything so maybe they can chime in here if they have any thoughts about captive produced snakes being released.
Link

Fortunately I think that Baja mountain kings are actually a species that you can legally keep and breed in California. I've seen reputable breeders and pet stores with them anyway. But I strongly recommend talking to the department of fish and game anyway, just to be sure about it.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

The possession limit for L zonata is one per the species. You can not have one of each subspecies. The subspecies L z pulchra is protected and may not be possessed at all. The State actually considers it a violation to have more than one per household. People have attempted to get around the possession limit by having a wife, girlfriend, husband etc get a license and claim possession of the second snake. You can not legally keep two using your boyfriend’s license. I have seen the issue referenced in print and have discussed this directly with California’s legal authorities and they do consider it illegal. As for breeding them, this is also a problem. It is illegal to release any offspring and illegal to keep them. You will not see California place L zonata on the permit list because it would create a loophole for unethical collectors. I am not sure about the Baja subspecies. It is perhaps the only readily distinguished subspecies but California considers zonata to be zonata. It is considered too difficult for field agents to try and ID subspecies. For this reason California does consider giving the entire species protected status. If you live in California I would suggest getting into the Arizona Mountain Kings, L pyromelena.
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Randy
Firehouse Herps

I believe you are wrong, Kyle Chang has clearly stated on another Kingsnake Forum, to the contrary. I also believe Rick Staub has stated that the fishing license is no longer required after it expires, so the following year you can keep the snakes, and not have to get another license.

You are correct about the license. You need one to collect the animal but not to posses it after the license expires. You are still however limited to 1 zonata per household at any given time. This should not be confused with one per year. You can not have more than one of the species and say your roommate or wife etc owns the second or collected it under a separate license. I have acquired this information through multiple discussions with California F&G officers and state herpetologists. I am not sure if the subspecies agalma is exempt from this regulation. I have never seen it referred to as exempt but it would make sense as the subspecies is not found in California and they are (too me anyway) readily distinguishable from the others in the complex.
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Randy
Firehouse Herps

a person and his live in friend, girlfriend or whatever, go hunting, and, each has a fishing license, they both find a zonata, and, they both bag the one they find, then upon leaving the area fish and game pulls them over, would/could they be cited for being over the limit? No, because each has a fishing license and are within the bag limit for the species. It's no different having them at home. The household (or car) doesn't get the license, the individual does, each individual is entitled under the regs to possess the legal limit. If they breed them, they have to give away the babies.

The propagation permit entiles you to sell captive bred offspring, I believe you still have to abide by the bag limits for wild caught animals though. If you keep a pair of snakes together and they breed, oh well, you just have to give away the babies.

If the animals end up in the same household it is interpreted by law enforcement as a violation of the 1 animal possession limit. This is to close a loophole where people were keeping multiple animals and claiming the extras belong to roommates or that they were watching them for a friend while he was out of town etc. California does not issue propagation permits for Lampropeltis zonata. The only native species eligible for propagation permits in California are…

Lampropeltis getula californiae (California King)
Lichanura trivirgata gracia (Desert Rosy Boa)
Lichanura trivirgata roseofusca (Coastal Rosy Boa)
Pituophis catenifer affinis (Sonoran Gopher)
Pituophis catenifer annectens (San Diego Gopher)
Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific Gopher)
Pituophis catenifer deserticola (Great Basin Gopher)

California still lists Gopher snakes under Pituophis melanoleucus.

If you have any questions or doubts as to California’s reptile legislation or the application of it please call the California Department of Fish and Game. I have obtained this information from both their printed material and through direct conversations with their officers.

Using loopholes to try and get around the laws is why the laws get stricter to enable better enforcement. . It is probable that many more states will soon follow Washington in banning the collection and possession of native species all together.
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Randy
Firehouse Herps

It wouldn't be a loophole if it couldn't stand up in court now would it? I highly doubt a conviction could come of it. I have never heard of a couple being convicted of it, or being cited for it for that matter. Aslo, wouldn't the department have to cite everyone in the household then? Each individual is entitled to possess "one", that was taken with a valid fishing license, or if given as a gift, say from someone who happened to find a gravid female. The regulation also allows for the take of one zonata a day, I can take take one a day, and feed it to my Savannah Monitor everyday, absolutely within the regulations.

I have researched this topic and you obviously have not. Why are you arguing? In the time it took you type your response you could have called the Calif Dept. of F&G. A simple phone call will settle the whole issue. If you are caught you do not go to court unless you challenge the fines. You will have your animals confiscated. They do have the authority to take all your animals and even computers. I do know of several instances where people have been busted for the scenario you are arguing for.
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Randy
Firehouse Herps

An excerpt from an article where officer Chang stated the following to a reporter: "Chang said there's no license required to capture a rattlesnake, and each individual is allowed to own up to two apiece of the seven species." I thought that there was one species C. v. ___, with seven sub-species. With that statement he is implying that not only can each individual own (14) Crotalus viridis..., but it also implies that you could own all (4) of the Lampropeltis zonata species from CA...Maybe Officer Chang could chime in and set the record straight here. I also do remember him on a kingsnake forum clearly contridicting your posisiton. I mean he spelled it out, wife, kids...

Oh yeah, if you noticed, he stated each individual, not each household.

You also stated in another forum that you have turned in many herpers from many states in to law enforcment, and seem to be knowledgeable as to, well, just about every states laws. Are you a memeber of Law Enforcement?

The thing about Calif game laws is that they are all up to the interpretation of the warden. Then again the warden's opinion is only valid if held up in court. Going to the DFG for info is often a wise choice, but unless you get someone who actually knows the species and issue, you may get poor info.

I am not a lawyer nor do I work for the DFG, but from my many interactions and working with this species specifically for years, this is how I see it.

First, a valid fishing license is only required if you plan to catch a zonata in the wild. No license is required if you simply possess one in your home. If this were the case, then you would also need a valid fishing license for any native frozen fish in your freezer, for anytime you bought a native fish from the supermarket, for any time a friend gave you a salmon filet, for any time a friend cooked trout for you for dinner, etc etc. A license is a take permit, nothing more. You do not need a valid license for game you caught last year. This includes the deer head on your wall.

The possession limit is one per person, not household. You do not give up your rights of possession by marrying or moving in with a friend who possesses a native snake. Every citizen of Calif is entitled to the possession of one zonata if they so desire to do so. Therefore, your girlfriend, boyfriend, son and daughter can all possess their own zonata, Cal king, skink, alligator lizard or any other species allowed in the state of Calif.

Further you are allowed to add zonata to the Captive Propagation permit (as a non-commercial species). This will not increase your possession limit for wild zonata, but will allow you to keep up to 30 zonata total that are captive produced. Again, only one can be wild caught. You will be required to keep records to verify the origins of all these snakes.

You are only allowed one zonata that is native to Calif regardless of the subspecies. This does not include the 2 baja subspecies (agalma and hererrae). I believe L. hererrae is a species now anyway so no longer considered a zonata subspecies.

If you breed zonata (accidently) and do not have a Captive Propagation Permit, then you must dispose of the offspring by the end of the year. You are allowed to give them away or kill them. That is it. Selling, trading or releasing them are all illegal. Of those, releasing them is the worse thing you could do IMO.

>>I have researched this topic and you obviously have not. Why are you arguing? In the time it took you type your response you could have called the Calif Dept. of F&G. A simple phone call will settle the whole issue. If you are caught you do not go to court unless you challenge the fines. You will have your animals confiscated. They do have the authority to take all your animals and even computers. I do know of several instances where people have been busted for the scenario you are arguing for.
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>>Randy
>>Firehouse Herps
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

That was basically my interpretation of the rules too. Rhallman doesn't know what he is talking about. Thanks for the clarification.

>>Further you are allowed to add zonata to the Captive Propagation permit (as a non-commercial species). This will not increase your possession limit for wild zonata, but will allow you to keep up to 30 zonata total that are captive produced. Again, only one can be wild caught. You will be required to keep records to verify the origins of all these snakes.>>

After rereading this it could be interpreted that this permit would allow you to sell zonata. It does not. The permit has two sides -- commercial (rosies, Cal kings, and gopher snakes only) and non-commercial (other non-protected species). The non-commercial side of the permit allows you to legally breed non-commercial species and retain a limited number of the offspring over and above the possession limits for wild caught specimens. You are not allowed to sell or trade these cb offspring. Here again you can only give them away or dispose of them.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles