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Continued discussion from below. Increasing fertility?

BobBull Jun 28, 2005 09:46 AM

I have had very lousy less than 50% fertility with my albino easterns. I have outlined in a thread below my "cookbook" husbandry. I'm relatively new to the hobby and am welcome to any suggestions. My largest het female just laid 24 eggs with 9 fertile and 15 slugs (I'm happy for nine fertile eggs, but being greedy I'd have liked 2 dozen even more).

I typically place the male and female together in a neutral sweater box. Even after mating I'll place the pair together every other night until the female totally rejects the male's advances.

The het female is 52" and 702 grams. Any techniques for boosting the fertility for a second clutch?
-----
Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

Replies (9)

FR Jun 28, 2005 01:13 PM

Instead of thinking of ways to boast your fertility, how about looking at how you lowered it. Again a disclaimer, don't be offended and no one is better then anyone. After all, were snake guys how good is that? (for us, real good)

a normal male produces good viable sperm, a normal female produces good follicules/ovum/eggs. Normally snakes reproduce without problem. That is their design. But things do happen both in nature and in captivity to change that.

In nature this is known and used by our game and fish departments, they base their take, on the recruitment of that years particular game species, higher recruitment, more take.

That analogy is only to start you thinking, its an ok comparison to reptiles, but not really. With mammals, food source is a direct link to production, as it is with reptiles. But then reptiles are not warm blooded so there are other influences.

Reptiles are not only tied to Calories(food) but also to weather conditions. Too dry, too hot, too cold, too wet. All can stress wild reptiles.

What does stress do, It causes harm, loss of weight, dehydration, and one huge one, atrophy(wasting away) of the sex organs. This was/is thought to be normal by some biologist. In fact, they would use preserved speciems to deterime what was there active season, but the size of the males internal sex organ development. Of course I am a goofball and do not agree. I agree thats its common and happens in nature, just not the how and why.

I think/know you find males with developed gonads, year-a-round. And males with undeveloped gonads, year-a-round. The successful breeder males develop enlarged gonads, these are the males you find in dens, groups, around females, etc. The subordinated males that you find constantly wandering, are the males that have undeveloped gonads. Which are the easist to find?

What that was all about is, in captivity, you and atrophy the gonads with stress. The problem is, you do not know which male has a full tank or empty tank or mobile sperm. You can check. But why?

All you have to do is not stress the male. I was amoung the fellas who invented hibernation(no brumation yet) OK, bears did, we did it with reptiles. Problem was, we did not understand it and that may be happening here.

Its my opinion, forced hibernation/brumation is stressful and without question can cause atrophy of the gonads. Which causes a horse race, will the female produce follicules before the male regenerates his gonads and produces viable sperm???? as you have witnessed, sometimes you win the horse race, sometimes you lose, sometimes you get a consulation prize(a few offspring)

When we first encountered this, back before most of you were born, a quick fix was, do not hibernate the male and his tank does not go empty. Or figure out what hibernation really is or is not.

So, to not have to reinvent the wheel and redo the whole nine yards(still wondering why its not ten) Allow males a choice of temps, heck, you can do that with females too. Then sperm is there when needed and not when the horse catches up. Whoops too late. But then you would not be hibernating or brumating, you would be allowing free choice. hehehe.

As with everything, there are degrees of results, those who hibernate with success(to them) are doing a good job. Those that hibernate with poor success, are not. You only need to fix the last one. Of course you could change your level of what you call success.

I have been using the monitors as a comparison, in that area, success is having your pet monitor around tomorrow, anything else is gravy. Here success is at a different level.

Again, without seeing your animals, I cannot make strong recomendations. But I commonly see this problem. and what I said may help. Think about not stressing the male. Surely it could be other things then hibernation. Also, in much rarer cases, the sperm dies in the female.

This can be determined by the eggs. But thats for another day. Your experience sounds like lack of viable sperm. Good luck FR

BobBull Jun 28, 2005 04:48 PM

The female in question escaped from her "hibernation" box the night before I went to put them into the cold cellar. She went 8 feet to a secluded spot. I recently finished a bathroom in my basement but the exterior wall is not finished. This left her an opening under the shower stall. She hibernated just out of reach from 11/13/04 until 05/03/05 when she took a crawl to shed.

The male was hibernated from 11/14/04 - 02/20/05. He was bred to females on 3/15/05
3/18/05, 3/20/05, 3/21/05, 3/22/05, 3/27/05, 3/29/05, 4/4/05, 4/10/05, 4/17/05, 5/11/05, 5/12/05, 5/27/05, 5/28/05, and 6/2/05. With 3 different females. Their clutches as follows:
Het-01 10 eggs all slugs 0 good
PHet-01 9 eggs 7 slugs 2 good
PHet-01 7 eggs 4 slugs 3 good
Het-02 24 eggs 15 slugs 9 good

The fertility numbers can be viewed as progressing in numbers of total good eggs, but for my objectives 28% fertility is not succesfull.

-----
Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

antelope Jun 28, 2005 08:50 PM

Bob, were they bred in the order you stated? If so, sounds maybe like the male "built up" his reserves over time or the more he had sex the more his hormones kicked in. The last sounds like a success to me. ??? enigma wrapped around a riddle!
Todd Hughes

FR Jun 29, 2005 09:20 AM

First, to solve a problem. you should follow "proper troubleshooting procedures) That is, the simplist things first.

As I indicated in my post, its most likely the males lack of sperm from being stressed from hibernation or some other reason.

Your information does back this.

A females responsibility is to produce eggs, yours are doing that, so your background info on them is not necessary.

A males task is to produce healthy sperm that has the mobility and stenght to fertilize eggs. This "looks" to be the problem.

Lastly, of course the eggs can die in the female, or the sperm can die while being stored in the female, but considering the problem was with many females, its seems logicial to point at the male.
The fact that his success is increasing with time. Points out that the problem is passed. As indicated in the first post, the problem most likely occured in the winter. simply put, a bad winter.

This is all in the first post. The problem is you like so many others, have a paradign of what is right and wrong, and refuse to take what you think is right into consideration. This is a huge problem with following methods/recipes and not understanding them.

The key to problem solving and understanding reproductive biology is keeping a open mind and using your own results to question your own methods. What I am trying to get across is, methods/recipes/husbandry are tools to allow results, they are not math, that is, they do not always add up to the same result. In truth there are hundreds of ways to breed kingsnakes successfully. Which one is the best depends on you and your understanding and goals. Which one is best also depends on your resources. FR

bluerosy Jun 29, 2005 02:43 PM

I am going to have to print copies for future reference. These are words everyone breeding snakes should memorize.

antelope Jun 29, 2005 08:08 PM

Frank, thank you for your insights. I enjoy reading about everyones successes and learn from the failures. I may attempt to breed my Mexican black kings next year or I may not. I want to read more about the nesting and wintering processes before deciding on a "recipe". Very interesting stuff and I hope you stick around the site for a while to expound more.
Todd Hughes

BobBull Jun 30, 2005 09:09 AM

Frank,
I'm not operating on any standard paradigm. I am using the typical recipe while I tinker with the collection in ways that coincide with my years of observation as a field biologist. My limitation with the snakes is not space or finances it is time allocation. Next year I'll try keeping the collection around 70 degrees with heat tape to provide areas of more intense heat.

I keep a large shoe-box in every cage packed with moist sphagnum. Without fail all of the easterns remain in these boxes for more than 90% of the observed time. I know that most keepers feel that moisture brings about blister disease, I have just not found that to be the case. Easterns are snakes of the CoastalPlain wetlands and are in my opinion well suited to life in humid environs. As a counter point my one L.g.nigrita will not use a humid hide even during shed, so his doesn't get one.

My original question was geared toward the possibility that I was introducing the male too early, too late, or not often enough, etc... Prior to your postings I had discussed keeping the collection at a cooler temperature, with my wife (also a biologist). Are conclusions are that fossorial snakes spend vast amounts of time at temperatures much closer to 60 degrees than at temps near 80. While they may need high temps for certain metabolic activities the remainder of their lives are spent in the ground, in the mud, under rocks, etc... but not where the temperatures reflect ambient air temps. The soil acts as a temperature buffer much like the ocean.

-----
Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

FR Jun 30, 2005 12:25 PM

Hi Bob, first, understand, we all have paradigns. It doesn't matter if your a biologist or not. In fact, biologist have some of the most defined institutional paradigns. After all, your not a biologist unless your taught to be one, that in fact is a paradign.

I agree with your last paragraph. But I do not understand the 70degrees and heattape approach. for instance, heat tapes are heat tapes, there are many kinds and some are good and some are not, which means, some may work easier then others. What is your particular heat tape doing?

As a biologists you do understand the snakes we are talking about work from a perferred base temp, as you mentioned and move to elevate their temps by need and behavior. They can obtain heat in many many ways, both from learned behavior and inhereted behavior. They pick heat by feel and by sight. Kings are more attuned to feel. Which leads to this, does the area you provide heat, feel right? Good luck FR

antelope Jul 01, 2005 02:40 AM

Expound on "feel" if you will, please, Frank. It's hard to know what lies underground for us surface dwellers! Would they move up to obtain more, hence the drawers under the cage approach?
Thanks, Todd Hughes

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