Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know I shouldn't think because my mind will wander, but you brought to my mind some really good questions worthy of discussion, at least IMO.

Alright, well first off lets take a look at Culberson county, for example. Anyone that has looked for alterna here knows its tough, really tough. Yet other species are abundant. Subocs for example, by the dozens. But not only subocs. There's a road in Culberson I like to cruise where you can find a dozen species of snakes (easily) in a night. In a weeks time that list may expand to 20 species if you include crepuscular species yet still no alterna.

What's so different about Culberson than Val Verde, except the amount of rainfall? And if that rainfall is so critical to alterna then why is it not so critical to those other species which are so abundant in Culberson?

Now let's move back east to Val Verde which arguably has the greatest population of Gray-bands in Texas. Other contenders are Terrell & Pecos. At what point does this moisture become too much as you are moving east? Troy mentioned the presence of Plethodon at least twice, I guess suggesting they are allopatric.

Or on an entirely different note, would you estimate the general population to equal in terms of alterna / acre of suitable habitat and that they are just more difficult to find the further west you travel, and away from Brewster and Presidio counties where we know they can found fairly easily.

Lastly, as a final point in relation to my list of suggested places we might find alterna at a later date. What did you think when you first heard alterna were present at King Mountain, or Iraan even. It wasn't so long ago that they were not known from these localities and their presence raised many an eyebrow.

I'm not suggesting I have all the answers by any means, because I don't. I do however think that if we put in enough effort we will learn some things that 10 years ago we might never had even thought of.

We have to get folks looking in all these odd places from the West side of the Sacramento Mtns all the way to Uvalde county Texas.

In closing I do want to repeat these 30 year old rumors regarding alterna localities that were told to Josef Laszlo, and passed on to me. The ones left that are unsubstantiated are

1) near Elephant Butte NM (drove past there but didn't get a chance to look at any habitat. Someone told me it stinks there so that may be that, but is that at all close to the habitat near the Sacramento Mtns?

2) Telegraph, Kimble county Texas - I've been there and hunted a canyon just south of Telegraph that looks plenty good. This one is not that far from known alterna locals and I really like the looks of the Canyon I herped way back when.

3) Uvalde county - someone told Laszlo that three alterna had been collected in Uvalde county, possibly by Garstka although I have a hard time believing he found them and didn't publish the locality when he wrote his 1982 paper. Additionally I have a friend who swears he has seen a Gray-band at Chalk Bluff. I've been there and the habitat looks right to me, plus it's on the west fork of the Nueces, downstream from known alterna locals on 674.

If you've got any thoughts on any of this BS I've written fire it back at me. I love this stuff, and the only reason I'm not out looking now is because I'm trapped at home with my two kids.

Best
Joe

Joe,

I've hunted the Caballo Mts. just west of Elephant Butte. They remind me alot of the Huecos...same type of limestone. Pretty orange subocs there...

Gary Keasler knows a biologist that hunted the road between Hillsboro and Kinston in the Black Range (Sierra County, NM)some years back that claims to have found an alterna there. According to Gary, the guy was looking for trimorphs and knew the difference between them and alterna. I've road cruised the area probably 10 nights myself and found trimorphs, leps, blacktails, etc. I know of several pyros collected on the road in that area, but the lower elevations look like they could support alterna. Wouldn't it be something to find an alterna west of the Rio Grande in NM?

"That's what I'm talking about!"

Way to go Dave, and let me say that I have no trouble buying into it.

NM just may be the best herping State in the southwest, over Texas, CA, and AZ.... man NM guys have it good

Best
Joe

> What's so different about Culberson than Val Verde, except the > amount of rainfall? And if that rainfall is so critical to
> alterna then why is it not so critical to those other species > which are so abundant in Culberson?

I think that most of Culberson (that is near roads) doesn't have enough fractured rock, or (where the limestone is fractured) enough relief (canyons and slopes). Places in Culberson that look really good to me (like the Sierra Diablo) you can't access. Also, the rainfall comes later in the year (mostly) away from the May/June peak movement. I think that Culberson actually has some good areas (as good as the Davis?), but most of it is away from the roads.

> Now let's move back east to Val Verde which arguably has the
> greatest population of Gray-bands in Texas. Other contenders
> are Terrell & Pecos. At what point does this moisture become
> too much as you are moving east? Troy mentioned the presence
> of Plethodon at least twice, I guess suggesting they are
> allopatric.

My point with Plethodon is that a cut that has salamanders in it active in the winter will be too wet for an alterna to live in. My experience suggests that the easiest way to kill and alterna is to hibernate it too humid.

So, my suggestion is that as you move east, you get outcrops that might otherwise look good for alterna, but that are too wet for the snakes to hibernate in. Also, compound this with a dense forest canopy (too many darn cedars!) and you get habitat that isn't really good for the beast. One thing that does make me wonder though - the density of the cedar is a recent, man-induced change . . . perhaps the habitat on the eastern end of the range was once more conducive to alterna colonization than it is today?

> Or on an entirely different note, would you estimate the
> general population to equal in terms of alterna / acre of
> suitable habitat and that they are just more difficult to find > the further west you travel, and away from Brewster and
> Presidio counties where we know they can found fairly easily.

In general, the rains come in Val Verde typically in May/June, which stimulates movement at a time when the snakes are already geared up to move (breeding). I think alterna are indeed more common on fractured limestone than on similar Basalt - but I also think that roads situations and weather conditions also make them more collectible in the east than further west.

> Lastly, as a final point in relation to my list of suggested
> places we might find alterna at a later date. What did you
> think when you first heard alterna were present at King
> Mountain, or Iraan even. It wasn't so long ago that they were > not known from these localities and their presence raised many > an eyebrow.

The first I ever heard of King Mountain was when there was an alterna caught there. I was probably a freshmen in high school. I had known about Iraan for longer. It didn't really raise any eyebrows, though, because (a) I didn't know what the place looked like and (b) I knew they were in Iraan already, which is only a stone's throw from King Mt on the map . . . However, looking at the habitat, doesn't look like a stretch to me at all - King Mt is just about contiguous with ridges that connect all the way down through Iraan to the Pecos at Sheffield, etc.

On another note, all of this talk about King Mt makes me recall another potential area - SW Reagan Co near the Crockett/Upton Co line. I know there are Pictigaster there - the THS had a field meet there in the early 70s. Anyway, I'm sure there are alterna there (its contiguous with Crockett and Upton habitat, more or less).

> 1) near Elephant Butte NM (drove past there but didn't get a
> chance to look at any habitat. Someone told me it stinks there > so that may be that, but is that at all close to the habitat
> near the Sacramento Mtns?

This is on the Rio Grande N of Las Cruces - if there were alterna there, they'd also have to be in the Franklins, Organs, and San Andreas Mts . . . there are subocs and trimorphs there, though.

> 2) Telegraph, Kimble county Texas - I've been there and hunted > a canyon just south of Telegraph that looks plenty good. This > one is not that far from known alterna locals and I really
> like the looks of the Canyon I herped way back when.

This is close, but I think just a bit too far.

> 3) Uvalde county - someone told Laszlo that three alterna had > been collected in Uvalde county, possibly by Garstka although > I have a hard time believing he found them and didn't publish > the locality when he wrote his 1982 paper. Additionally I have > a friend who swears he has seen a Gray-band at Chalk Bluff.
> I've been there and the habitat looks right to me, plus it's
> on the west fork of the Nueces, downstream from known alterna > locals on 674.

Chalk Bluff is on the main Nueces - the west prong joins the Nueces below Chalk Bluff but north of 90 . . .I think the Chalk Bluff ridge looks very promising for alterna, though. One thing about this area, though - I've seen very few snakes, period, along 55, and I drive it every day during the school year . . . just a few emoryi, atrox, pituophis, and masticophis basically. But I do think that this part of Uvalde Co is very promising for alterna.

One last thing to consider about all this peripheral (to the known range of alterna) habitat . . . maybe the snakes just haven't gotten there yet? Maybe alterna are still expanding their range and they will get to these places someday? We don't really have any data to suggest which parts of alterna's range are the most recently colonized (I would bet the Edwards Plateau snakes are, but that's just my guess).

Troy

I thought maybe the sinkhole reference was Gelbach and Baker 1962, but best I can figure is Tennant came up with on his own in 1984 from somewhere??

Here is what I had come up with for Edwards for Tennant 1998

"Other Edwards County localities
Additional specimens are reported from Carta Valley (p.d.F.), a cave in the Devil's Sinkhole & 17 miles west of Rocksprings on Hwy. 377 (Tennant, 1984). Gehlbach & Baker (1962) report a specimen from Dunbar cave, 37 kilometers southwest of Rocksprings. All of these specimens were light "blairi" morphs."

On the Range of alterna and Fossil records, I only have three fossil records, none of which will tell us much about a recent invasion into the Edwards Plateau. Here are those records:

"Fossil records verify the presence of L. alterna at Fowlkes Cave in Culberson County as far back as the late pleistocene (Parmley, 1990). Van Devender (1978) also reports fossil records from a packrat midden in southern Brewster County and cave fill at Baker Cave in Val Verde County that were 15,300 - 670 years and 9,180 -220 years old respectively (see also Miller, 1979)."

We need more fossil records.

Best
Forky

It's Gelbach and Baker 1962. Devil's Sinkhole.

Well, if they are at Devil's Sinkhole, then it stands to reason that they could be on 335 . . .

as for the rest . . .

""Other Edwards County localities
Additional specimens are reported from Carta Valley (p.d.F.)"

This one is at UTA, I've got a photo of it - light blairs

", a cave in the Devil's Sinkhole"

there is only one cave there . . . still, I have wonder if it isn't being confused with the Dunbar Cave animal below.

"& 17 miles west of Rocksprings on Hwy. 377 (Tennant, 1984)."

Not surprising at all - this is one of the areas that I've been looking - the cuts look good, and there is lots of natural exposed rock. All I've found here so far is a Copperhead, though.

" Gehlbach & Baker (1962) report a specimen from Dunbar cave, 37 kilometers southwest of Rocksprings."

This is off of fm 674.

The thing that makes me wonder is that I have a dot map (from Dixon) with the Dunbar Cave specimen marked, but not the Devil's Sinkhole specimen.

Troy

Troy,
a couple of notes on your post.

The Carta Valley snake I referenced is actually a Roadkill I found there before they widened 377. Back when the road was narrow the was a nice "s curve" right at Carta Valley with great rocks and many Sotols right off the road. I'm sure some of the old timers here remember that. The UTA specimen would make two from Carta Valley AFAIK. (also see Miller 1979).

Dunbar Cave is NOT off of 674, it's actually off of 377 (23 miles or 37 km SW of Rocksprings. That is actually the specimen reference by Gehlbach and baker 1962 UMMZ122688.

Still waiting to hear back from Tennant to the exact source of those two references (17 miles west of Rocksprings and Devil's Sinkhole).

Anyway, I'm glad you brought it up because Tennant may have fudged that Sinkhole snake unless we can track down the exact reference.

Best
Joe

Well, if they are at Devil's Sinkhole, then it stands to reason that they could be on 335 . . .

Troy

when I said see also Miller 1979, I meant to attach that at the end of Dunbar Cave paragraph, not the Carta Valley paragraph.

I don't think either of us doubt the validity of 377 specimens, especially given the Gehlbach records... it's that sinkhole snake that's bothering me now....

Forky

"We need more fossil records."

Careful what you wish for, Joe...

Most of these snake fossil records (almost all) are based on single vertebral elements: one vertebra (sometimes fragmentary) from a vertebral column that numbers over 200 in Lampropeltis. I believe that the majority of species level identifications in North American snakes are based on "unique" vertebral characters that aren't actually unique and are essentially misleading because of variation. There is a huge amount of variation within the vertebral column of even a single snake, much less within a single species. I recently evaluated the vertebral characters that have been published to identify rattlesnake vertebra to both the generic and species level. I found such high levels of intra-individual variation that none of the published "unique" characters even worked at separating the Crotalus species from the two Sistrurus species. There are some vertebral characters that help with identifications, and a number of snake genera really can be distinguished from each other based on good, unique characters. But by and large, because of this tremendous variation within this long column, I think most species level identifications based on snake vertebrae are suspect and that the majority of snake vertebral fossils can only be diagnosed to family or genus.

I picked up a copy of Gartska 1982 yesterday and it further confirmed my fossil ID suspicions: Gartska was unable to distinguish between L. alterna and L. mexicana vertebrae - he couldn't find any differences. So my question is how do we know the fossils that have been identified thus far as alterna aren't actually mexicana fossils (wouldn't that twist some folks into a knot?), or maybe Lampropeltis sp. is really the closest ID? My take home message with all of this is to take the fossil identifications with a grain of salt.

Sorry to be such a downer...though all of this talk of peripheral or little known alterna localities has got me trying to figure out where I will go on my single night of road cruising next month (Austin to El Paso to help move my sister-in-law to Austin) - a multitude of choices. With my stellar road-cruising record, however, you can rest assured it won't be Juno!

travis

Excellent point Travis, and something I should have been more than aware of from my dabbling in vertebrate paleontology. I'm sure you know how tough it can be sometimes to ID a caudal vertebrae from 80 mya.

Anyway your post caused me to review Parmley's 1990 work. It seems he was on top of things and compared samples to complete skeletons in both his own collection and the collection of Midwestern State University. He seems to a good job of differentiating the species of lampropeltinine snakes (Colubridae) with verts present at the Cave site, even in regards to getula, alterna, and triangulum.

Interestingly enough, the Crotaline and Racer verts he does not try to separate to a species level because he states they are indestinguishable from each other.

His samples are as follows:
Pituophis melanoleucas - 3 verts
Arizona elegans - 20 verts
Rhinocheilus - 94 verts
E guttata - 7 verts
Bogertophis - 17 verts
alterna - 4 verts
triangulum - 4 verts
getula - 4 verts
hypsiglena ?? verts (he doesn't say how many)
tantilla - 3 verts
gyalopian - 2 verts
sonora - 8 verts
diadophis - 4 verts
masticophis or coluber - 37 verts (he comments there is no way separate the coluber verts from the masticophis verts)
opheodrys - 2 verts
nerodia - 1 vert
thamnophis marcianus- 1 vert
thamnophis sp indet. - 2 fragmented verts
crotalus sp. indet 57 verts

He even comments on the merits of his marcianus over cyrtopsis on the basis of the higher nueral spine.

If you'd like to look over this paper, I'll scan it to PDF for you. It's a pretty good read and one I've been fond ever since it came out (Journal of Herpetology Vol 24, No 3, September 1990)

Best
Joe

Just thought I'd scan the diagrams for you. Of course he doesn't go over every vert from head to tail, but these diagrams look pretty convincing to me

Best
Joe

hey Travis,

Had a great trip the rest of the way after you left Comstock. Rick and Melissa scored twice, and it seems, everyone else in Texas did too. However, James and I didn't this year. But, came home to a couple of gravid females laying so now we are watching eggs.

It was awesome to see you. That lepidus we saw was the only one we saw the whole time!! I guess I am doing too much alterna hunting with James and losing my perspective on lepidus LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have several DOR's for your museum.

I agree with you about fossils and vertebrae.... but maybe Gartska couldn't tell the difference between alterna and mexicana vertebrae because they are the same beast??

Hope all is well. Congrats on the Longhorn baseball victory. Hugh

don't diss on Juno travis...
juno giveth, and juno taketh away

on an interesting side note, we caught a bairds the night you left

hope all is well-
james

This is on the Rio Grande N of Las Cruces - if there were alterna there, they'd also have to be in the Franklins, Organs, and San Andreas Mts . . . there are subocs and trimorphs there, though.

I've got two comments regarding these thoughts.

Firstly - why would they have to be there too?
Secondly - maybe the are there too? Or maybe they are in in two of the three, or one of the three.

If the population has recently expanded into these areas, I could see whay you would think that. However, it is important to remember that these habitats were more mesic 15,000 years ago than they are today. See Parmley 1990 and his Fowlkes Cave study with regards to species present 15,000 years ago vs species present today. I'm not sure exactly how this relates to the range of alterna then vs the range of alterna today, but it could help explain the emergence of the species into the Edwards Plateau (a more mesic environment).

There could be relic populations in several places you might not expect them to be because they are "trapped" by barren bolsons today.

It's all very interesting to me. I like bouncing these ideas off of other folks. More feedback please!

Best
Joe

It's a little bit like saying since Willards are in the Animas, then they have to be in the Hatchets too, or even Chiricahuas.

They may or may not be there, but I don't think they would have to be there.

Best
Joe

the Animas are on the periphery of willardi range, linked to the main population by a chain of willardi-inhabited Mts (as are the Peloncillos, both linked by the Sierra San Luis and other ranges further south). The Hatchets are peripheral to the Animas, and apparently lack both willardi and suitable habitat - although willardi may have once existed there, they apparently do not any longer.

The Elephant Butte area would be extremely peripheral, and it stands to reason that if alterna were there, they would be linked to the main body of alterna's distribution by a chain of suitable habitat in between. Such suitable habitat does, in fact, exist in the form of the Mt Ranges I mentioned - in fact, the habitat in those Mts is better than that at Elephant Butte. Furthermore, some of those ranges (in particular, the Franklin and Organs) are herped fairly extensively, suggesting that if alterna were there, then one (at least) would have turned up over the years. And to forestall the "but they occur in the Huecos, but are rare" argument - over the past 30 years, around 8-10 alterna have turned up in the Huecos . . .

Troy

forstall for how long?

No alterna have been found in the Apaches yet. I expect that to change relatively soon however.

What about the Chiricahuas? Linked by the same Mountain ranges?

I suspect the El Paso Bolson is an effective east-west barrier, but habitat is linked around that bolson from the East, then North and west.

I just refuse to accept the arguement that they aren't there "because they haven't been found yet". There are still some surprises waiting for us, most assuredly.

Best
Joe

none have been found in the Apaches, but they've been found in Mt Ranges on both sides (Guads . . . Delawares 62/180 . . . Davis Mts). I also saw a snake there in 1989 that could have been an alterna (on 2185) - snake got off into the grass and I couldn't find it.

I still think that Elephant Butte is simply too far away from the known populations of alterna for it to be a credible possibility. Even if the "chain of habitat" went East/West, you'd still expect alterna in the San Andreas, Organs, Franklins, etc. All are much better habitat than the Elephant Butte area, and in between (geographically) Elephant Butte and the Huecos, etc.

The Chiricahuas are not connected by even small rock ridges to any place that has willardi . . . add to that the mt range being one of the most extensively herped areas in the country and I think "they haven't been found there over the past 50 years" is pretty strong evidence that they aren't there.

And that's what you have to do with these peripheral alterna locales - "they haven't been found there yet" is just one piece of evidence that you have to consider. Another thing to consider is that alterna does not have many (known) disjunct populations in the states (as would be expected of a "relictual" species) and the distance an area is from the known range. Add all of that up, and you get decreasing likelihood of existence. So, I would say that it would be very unlikely that alterna exist in the Elephant Butte area. Of course, if you got one there, it would "prove" me wrong. LOL

Troy

maybe i should say how close the snake was found to the edwards county line rather than how far from sonora...some dude from san angelo emailed me a few years ago re that record...he said that a dor was found even farther north....if i get down this year...i just moved and gettin' hitched 7/30...things look bleak...i'm hittin' that county line.............next year too...catchyas on daroad.......

I certainly think alterna do occur in the Apaches. I think the primary limiting factor there is the rock. The Permian limestone that runs from NM down through that section of west Texas is much harder, sharper, and resistant to fracture than the limestone on the remainder of the plateau. It tends to form large slabs that fracture only as they become completely exposed. At first look the landscape appears ideal, but there's often very little subterranean access for the crevice-dwellers. That limit in subterranean access I think limits the size of the population. Give that reef another 10,000 years to degrade and I think we could have a ball there!

As for Elephant Butte, it looks wonderful. Anyone who's experienced the hair-raising that occurs with the stimulus of driving through good Chihuahuan desert habitat would have their hair stand up in that place. I've spent a lot of time there over the years. There's a LARGE population of subocs and a sizeable population of ashy gray, dark chocolate, thin-banded Trimorphodon. The area's disjointed from the range of alterna to the south and separated by several heavily-herped mountain ranges (albeit herped in a way that would be less likely to produce alterna). That combined with a heavy population of what seems to be a niche substituting Trimorphodon and I'd venture what I feel to be a pretty solid guess that there are no alterna there.

The Franklins and Huecos present different ends of the collecting spectrum with different results.

The Huecos are a very lightly collected area that has produced 8 snakes. Yes, there is a road through them, but it is very lightly travelled.

The Franklins are in the middle of one of the larger cities in the US and are bisected by two roads that are pretty heavily travelled. If you go into the UTEP collections, you see jars and jars of Trimorphs, Leps, and Bogeys from these roads. No alterna. With the number of snakes that have been hit on those roads (particularly Trans-Mtn Road) over the last 20 years, you would think an alterna would have been on the list if they were there. And yes, people look as they drive the road.

In other words, a lot more sampling has taken place in the Franklins and no alterna have turned up. In fact, it is probably true that the Franklins are among the top three best sampled mountain ranges in the Trans-Pecos.

-----
Chris Harrison
Does anyone else here think that these scrolling signature lines are stupid?

I'll take it on faith that there are no alterna in the Franklins. I do not expect alterna to be sympatric with klauberi, which would be my biggest problem with alterna anywhere near the Black range. I do expect them to be sympatric with lepidus lepidus, which is probably why I expect the best chances for an expanded range are in the east where lepidus lepidus is known to have a greater range than alterna.

Speaking of which, does anyone here have any info on the alledged specimen of lepidus from Pipe Creek Texas? That's one that I still have trouble swallowing. That's also not far from the last reported annulata in Bexar county - Helotes Texas 1949.

Forky

Hey Joe,

Devil's advocate here, but wouldn't you call the lepidus found in the Hueco Mts. klauberi? Certainly they are as much klauberi as those in the Franklins.

Of course, the whole l. klauberi and l. lepidus taxonomy is very open to question too. About as much as alterna, mex, greeri, thayeri, pyro, etc. is!!!! LOL!!!!

Have a great weekend!! Hugh

Hugh,
I've never had the pleasure of examining one up close! So I really can't comment.
I'll see if I can dig up some specimens to look at and add my two cents, if it's even worth that.
Have any photos of Hueco leps to share?

One the mexicana complex taxonomy, have you ever seen a wild aquired specimen that you could not attribute to one species or another (other than specimens that may not have been described at this juntcure?).

Have a safe and happy 4th!
Forky

Hugh,
and just to clarify a little bit.... I think we (myself for sure) have a better understanding of what's going on with the kingsnakes than we do with the lepidus group, especially if you start looking south of the border.

I was not aware of the questions surrounding the Hueco leps (you learn something everyday, if you're lucky). But you got me gassedup to see some now.

Best
Joe

Hey Joe,

I have some slides (dating myself) of Hueco leps, but nothing I can get into the computer with my techno deficient life. I have had several over the years, and bred them in the early 80's, all from the south end of the range. They are very clean banded, no intercalary speckling or blotches and usually a light tan to pinkish color. One of the most unique mountain ranges for lepidus. I have heard that occasionally, one can get Franklin looking beasts out there and also that there are very typical lep lep beasts north of the highway?? I have collected several and seen quite a few others. All were the tan klauberi looking beasts that I mention above.

The alterna complex is an interesting one indeed. The variation among the forms is awesome. C. lepidus is another complicated and stimulating pile of questions. I dabbled in the taxonomic part of lepidus for a few years many many years ago when I was at A&M. I have subsided to demographics and social behavior for the last 20 years out here in AZ.

I could send you a slide if you want to see a Hueco lep.

Cheers, Hugh

Hugh,
Interesting. Photos have been pouring in since last night of Hueco lepidus. Some interesting animals indeed. So far nothing that jumps out at me as a "klauberi" yet. Maybe I just haven't seen the right photos yet.

Oddly enough, The most klauberi "looking" lepidus I've ever seen Texas came off the Gap in 89. It was an incredible looking beast that defies my feeble attempts at a description, but it looked like some of the klaubs from Durango, but in orange, chestnut brown, and pink. Wish I had a photo of that thing, but the guy who found it cooked it accidently.

Forky

Hi All,
I think that klauberi type leps are found all around the Western part of the trans-Pecos. I remember seeing a road kill on 17 in Lympia between the rest areas that was a pink, heavily banded snake with almost no mottling, beautiful. Also, many of the leps around Redford on the river road are like that. The Hueco animals that I have seen are light pinkish, with little mottling and thin bands. I would say they look like a nice intermediate form. Just my 2 cents.
Jim McLean

From a gestalt perspective I would agree with that assessment. Davis lepidus generally have a more "klauberi" type apearance especially than say those in the east around Terrell and val Verde county.

So far the thing that jumps out at me is that, occasionally you'll see a lep lep that has some "klauberi" appearance, but klauberi that resemble lep lep in gestalt are far less common.

There is a gray area between specimens that look like these:

this goes back to what I said:

"I think that we (me at least) have a better understanding of what's going on with the kingsnakes than we do the lepidus group"

Sometimes you get a thayeri that looks like an alterna, so much so that it might cause someone like Liner to misidentify the animal. Luckily there is enough discrepency in ventral counts, and no known sympatry between mexicana and alterna, that if we are given a location it's usually enough to make a quick determination as to the identity (as of today at least).

I'm not sure this is always the case with lepidus group.

That might sink my gut feeling that you won't find "klauberi" sympatric with "alterna" but for now I'm going to stick with that general assessment.

What that probably alludes to is that alterna and mexicana are more derived from their common ancestors than lepidus and klauberi - which makes sense. Especially given the fact that almost no Crotalid species are separable by vertabral characteristics where as Permley seems to think that triangulum, mexicana, and alterna are all distinguishable by vertabral characteristics.

As always, I'm just thinking out loud, so if you guys have any feedback on this feel free to fire it back at me.

Forky

>>triangulum, mexicana, and alterna are all distinguishable by vertabral characteristics.

should be GETULA, triangulum, and alterna

That is quite a difference. LOL!!!

APOLOGIES TO ALTERNA FOLKS FOR THIS RATTLESNAKE POST, BUT THE CONTENT HAS SOME RELEVANCE TO ALTERNA TAXONOMY.

Hey Joe,

Thanks for the nice photos and your interesting posts. Gestalt is how many folks make many species ID's. And gestalt is only as good as the eye of the beholder. What I see in your photos for instance, are a lep lep below (for fun Val Verde?) and a klauberi (Durango?) that has at least one lep lep characteristic...

Many moons ago I borrowed a few hundred museum leps from the northern part of the range (AZ>Tex, Sonora>coahuila). Then I constructed a table of the 7 characters used by Gloyd to distinugish them when he described klauberi. I did this for Jim Dixon at A&M to make a point on color pattern use as a character in highly variable species. By design, I did not know the locality info of the specimens when I took the data. Out of the nearly 200 animals I examined that were all ID'd as either lep lep or lep klauberi, I found two pure of each. One klauberi from the Franklin Mts, one klauberi from the Hueco Mts. one l. lep from near Pandale and one l. lep from the Huachucas in AZ. Obviously, there are problems with the characters from those days, and yet, most of us have no problem gestalting the difference?? I just call them lepidus in the US.

Happy 4th!! Hugh

because they the same species (at least they are considered the same species by these humans that like to draw lines in the sand and say everything on this side is this, and everything on that side is that) and that species range is large and includes diverse habitats and elevations.

I apolgise to for the off topic posts, but lepidus are one of my favorite snakes even if I'm not what you'd call an expert on them.

I'd really like to see the one resembled lep lep from the Huachucas, but it's probably a mute point anyway. After all you had no problem nailing those photos to within one county in Texas and the klaub is fairly typical of the Durango specimens.

There is credence to gestalt though, as it's not limited to color and pattern alone. One of the reasons you nailed that Terrell lep lep is the stout body and large head, clearly physically different from most "klauberi" types. (of course the slate blue / gray color and pattern is also a calling card of leps in that area).

I'm going to go back a statement I made earlier and say that lepidus and klauberi are (clearly) not as far removed from their common ancestors as are mexicana sp. and alterna.

Back in 82 Kardon flipped a C. aquilus east of San Luis Potosi. It was the first specimen any of us had ever seen in life. Here is the picture.

I incorrectly insisted this animal was a lepidus of some sort. Kardon and Peterson weren't so quick to make a determination. As it turns out it was C aquilus, but not your typical square blotched aquilus, and the rattles were clearly larger than any triseriatus I'd ever seen. It was a long time before I accepted the animal's true identity. After I read the passage in Lamar and Campbell I felt vindicated (a little). Campbell and Lamar indicated that aquilus was in fact more closely related to lepidus than triseriatus, and felt aquilus should be elevated to species status rather than staying in the triseriatus group.

It's all interesting to me. Maybe we should have a lepidus sub-forum for the alterna page?

Happy fourth to you Hugh!
Best
Joe

>>Many moons ago I borrowed a few hundred museum leps from the northern part of the range (AZ>Tex, Sonora>coahuila). Then I constructed a table of the 7 characters used by Gloyd to distinugish them when he described klauberi. I did this for Jim Dixon at A&M to make a point on color pattern use as a character in highly variable species. By design, I did not know the locality info of the specimens when I took the data. Out of the nearly 200 animals I examined that were all ID'd as either lep lep or lep klauberi, I found two pure of each. One klauberi from the Franklin Mts, one klauberi from the Hueco Mts. one l. lep from near Pandale and one l. lep from the Huachucas in AZ. Obviously, there are problems with the characters from those days, and yet, most of us have no problem gestalting the difference?? I just call them lepidus in the US.
>>
>>Happy 4th!! Hugh

Your idea is plausible. I was born in El Paso and my grandparents owned a ranch on the foothills of the franklins for many years.
We saw many snakes in the area but no alterna.

I think Troy may have hit something as well stating that alterna may still be in the process of moving to their maximum potential range.

Take Care,

Steven

The north 3rd of the Franklins looks to be the same permian limestone that you find in the Huecos. Unfortunately, there are no roads in that area.

What if the alterna do not occupy the igneous rock to the south, but have colonized the limestone where nobody has looked? lol I have to admit, I WANT to believe!

They would need a line of contiguous habit or a crossable barrier. I am with Chris on this... If the UTEP clan has not found one then I am inclined to think they are just not there.

Hi Guys,
I'm really enjoying this discussion about possible new alterna locales, even though I'm more of a rat snake man. I remember when I caught my 1st West of Alpines in the Summer of '94 (I think. I had caught a male in Paisano pass on the road and was worried about pairing him up. Who would have thunk that I would have found a female the same night, but where I found her was the amazing thing. Those cuts in the plains West of the pass are o.k., but hardly as fractured as you would want and so isolated. I would never have thought that I would get 3 from the same cut. Alterna are truly amazing living undrground in those plains and coming out where the outcroppings occurr....which is pretty scattered.
I will bet you anything that the sheep and goat industry has increased the Val Verde, Terrell, etc. populations. I think the balance of grass to rocks is just about right for a bumper population of alterna (and a lot of other snakes,too). I'm sure that there will be more range extensions in TX and probably other NM, too. Heck, even around here Pantheropis guttatus (slowinski)had a range extension a year or so ago to Calcasieu Parish.
This is really a great forum and a great topic!!
Thanks,
Jim McLean

Fire me up, Joe I'm ready and willin'! I think anything is possible, especially when it comes to snakes and ranges.
Todd H.

I've read through the entire thread thus far and have found it all very interesting. A lot of good points and exciting ideas going on here. I wish I had all the time in the world to JUST hunt Texas, particularly some of these places of questionable alterna interest. I can't add any serious intellect to this topic but I can say this, they are where we find them. I have come to realize that we all tend to underestimate the elusiveness and the survival ability that many herps, particularly fossorial snakes have. At this point in my herping hobby, with what I've learned thus far, I would not doubt any claims of range extensions on a species like alterna.

I think it was last season I heard of some guy talking about how he had found, or maybe heard about someone else finding alterna on some road just over the NM state line (it was a post on KS I think). From what I remember, he had found like 2 or 3 in one night on this road. The exact name of the road escapes me at this moment but I did check it out and to me, it looked like dog crap for alterna. But hey, who knows? I would have to check my map, which I don't have handy right now, but I know it was in Eddy County. Of course, there's no big surprise about Eddy County as they are known from there, but, this area did not look like what I would think to be typical alterna habitat. My point being, if this guy really did find alterna there, then it is likely they are eeking out a living in other crappy places too.

Once you get into areas that have smaller populations, you gotta factor in our likelihood of finding them, which is much less likely for two obvious reasons. 1 - low population density and 2 - if the population is small, then why? Most reasons would likely cause them to stay underground even longer than other populations, which we already know their surface activity isn't that great in the first place. Just for [bleep]sNgrins, let's say they are surface active in these questionable areas 10% of their lives (this is pure speculation and I have no clue as to what their actual surface activity would be). The only way to find such an animal would be with extensive field work on multiple fronts or just dumb freaking luck (I prefer the later). A guy can always narrow it down by searching under what we consider to be prime conditions but that still doesn't guarantee us a snake.

I’m certainly not trying to argue with anyone here, in fact, I’m trying to agree more than anything. I’m just adding my 1.5 cents of general herp knowledge. Like Joe said, there will be new county records eventually added (as well as new populations within known counties too). I’m looking forward to hearing about them (or finding them myself LOL).

Later,

Brad

when are you and Bob leaving. I'm digging up some stuff which can be of some help right now.

I'll be dropping you an e-mail with attachments and various leads.

Forky

July 22 thru August 5th (For a Texas guy, it would be like July 23rd thru August 3rd -- HINT, HINT).

Got your emails, thanks again man!

Brad

Yep. I used to think I had a rare talent 'till the alterna tamed that notion! But the splendida here are severely fossorial and I've managed more than a few of them, and recently some annulata, too. I hope to find some of these "out of the way" critters, too. They are just too cool!
Todd Hughes

Been trying to get Jay to go after some annulata down there.
How far west from your "backyard" did you have to go? Jay claims there ain't no milks close to home....

On the other hand, Jay's probably out there reeling in Redfish by the limits right now, so what can I say? Did I tell you he's a fishing guide? You need to hook up with him....

Best
Joe

Hey Joe, I'd guess that J.Lassiter's January snake was about 35 miles down the road( but he ain't tellin'!) That's okay I know! Or less, heck his is a Nueces county and mines a Live Oak county so his is from the very furtest west of Nueces. Mine is from the very furthest west in L.O. and we caught a hatchling in between last fall. If I was jay I'd be slayin' the reds now too 'cause it is just gettin' hot! Love this relict population discussion! That ol' suboc serpwidgeted out to 71.4"! I heard someone say the record is over 6'. Bummer. Anyway I got an ace or two yet to play and hope to see my own alterna soon. It;s not about the wantin' one anymore...just the capture. I kinda like the ideas of the catch and release discussed earlier...aawww who'm I kddin'? I'm gonna get me one of them rascals!LOL!
Todd Hughes

If you are talking about my anulatta then....Mine was collected in Jim Wells Co. not Nueces Todd.....On January 1st after 8 inches of snow on Christmas Eve and Christmas.....Under a firewood pile by my buddy's barbecue pit......
Just south of 308......
John Lassiter

My bad, John. I got my county line mixed up.
Todd

I've checked out that road (CR 725 just off of 285). First time I was with ChrisNM and Paul H. Couple atrox and a couple viridis. Our trip was cut severely short, however, as I got a flat tire and after it was fixed, we headed back. I drove through there again this year and there are some "rocky hills" (not sure how else to describe it) which might be good for alterna. I haven't been finding much at all lately, though, so I haven't tried again. CR 408 has subocs, molossus, and lepidus so that might be a good bet for alterna. On another note, I was down at the Sitting Bull Falls area and talked to a volunteer who said "NM Fish & Game have been coming down here at night. There's supposed to be a gray and black banded kingsnake that is endangered and they are looking for poachers..." So maybe I'll try that area also.

I just noticed your note, thanks for the reminder.

I would love to see some alterna from up there so I guess it's up to you and I to get a picture of one. I'll be out that way in the fall (hopefully).

Brad

This is not my idea but one mentioned from someone else here several years ago...

I think the best bet to find what you are looking for is to really watch the weather patterns and see when a big front is coming through. Possibly a low pressure system. Then get out in front of it several days before the front passes and hit your target area with everything you got.

The front should cause some movement from the alterna if they are in the area. The rest is timing and luck.

The tough part is being able to get out of work in a moments notice to hunt. Most of us have to time our trips around the moon because we have to put them on the calendar months ahead of time.

I think the easiest non collected location to find alterna is Sutton County. The area just looks like a range extension from 277 north. The toughest may be in New Mexico. Plus if someone does find one they may not come forward and say it due to the status of Alterna in NM.

Thanks for getting this stuff going. Nice to see folks generate interest in Alterna again.

Steven

Why not condense this discussion into a page on hypothetical range and locality information. That way maybe somebody with more free time than us can have a chance to get out to those areas and contribute tremendously to the herping community.

I know it would be a lot of work, but in then end if just one or two of these localities panned out it would be worth it.

Lance

I'm running out of ink and paper! You and Troy can present the facts and conjecture in a static main body of work - but it would also allow for updates as specimens are found...

RP

you should see the prospectus for south of the border where over 2/3 of alterna's range lies.

I'd be happy to compile a list of Counties, Roads, Mtn. ranges, and general areas north of the border that need more attention.

Forky

He will get some things done around here.

Lance

I have a special place in my heart for Trimorphodon. I keep a pair of lambda, which appears to enjoy wide distribution in AZ - just look at the range! What has limited wilkinsonsii to its range in Texas? Just curious.

RP

It's basically a mexican snake, found throughout the northern portion of the Chihuahuan Desert, but in Texas only known from four counties (Dixon) and usually encountered along the Rio Grande. Black Gap has a decent population of them, and apparantly so do the Chisos & Franklin Mtns. You can sometimes see them on River Road as well. Best time to find them is - you guessed it - after a rain.

Travis here in the forum should have a lot more information about them, see:

LaDuc, Travis J. & Jerry D. Johnson. 2003. A Taxonomic Revision of Trimorphodon biscutatus vilkinsoni (Serpentes: Colubridae). Herpetologica 59(3): 364-374. The authors recognized this taxon as species distinct from T. biscutatus, and recommended a standard common name of Chihuahuan Desert Lyre Snake, to better reflect its range.

They also range into NM. I'm not sure about the range into ole Mexico but I would guess it's pretty extensive. If you look at Trimorphs as a whole they have quite an extensive Range throughout the SW USA and Mexico

Many, many years ago, Ray Queen and I found a DOR on 90 near Valentine just after dawn. I always thought it was an odd place to find one, but I think the ones in AZ would be found near the grasslands. THis one was not near any rock outcrops. It is in the collection at LSU as are all of my DORs from TX and otherwise.
Jim McLean

In the areas I've herped, I've never encountered a Trimorph away from rocky hillsides or mountain slopes. They do have considerable range in AZ - but the association with rocky habitat has been a constant. In NW and SW AZ, I have seen them occupying the same general habitat as rosy boas and speckled rattlesnakes; in S AZ and SE AZ, I usually see them in close proximity to tigris, triaspis, even pyros. Never grassland. RP

My theory on the specimen that Ray and I found was it was flashed from some rocky area to the grassy area where we found it. It was near a culvert and it was August.
Jim

just for the record...

Labor Day Weekend, Highway 80, just south of Rodeo, NM....

It was a little neonate, maybe a whole 7 inches long.

And whoever was questioning 2004 Eddy Co. alterna.....I know of one confirmed animal, muahahahaha!

Chris

god I hate this new forum format...I want to use HTML kingsnake.com!

Beautiful little snake!
Todd Hughes

There is an alterna from Lobo just up the road from Valentine(LACM specimen). I'm not sure which record is more unusual!

>>Many, many years ago, Ray Queen and I found a DOR on 90 near Valentine just after dawn. I always thought it was an odd place to find one, but I think the ones in AZ would be found near the grasslands. THis one was not near any rock outcrops. It is in the collection at LSU as are all of my DORs from TX and otherwise.
>>Jim McLean