Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My new baby BCI ate on Wednesday and I bought her on Thursday with a visible lump. I was concerned on Friday and Saturday that the lump wasn't reducing very much and today, she regurgitated (she also deficated).

She's alert and looking fine. Temps are 84 on one end and about 92 on the other.

What should I do?

Thanks for the help,

K

It is usually not a good idea to sell a baby snake that has just eaten, it is best to wait 4-5 days. Handling the animal could be the cause of the regurge, so do not panic. Wait about 8-10 days before you feed her, feed her a smallish item and she should be okay. If she regurges again a trip to the vet may be required. Good luck

Yea, that is good advice and just make sure the food item is like a fuzzy size. Once a snake vomits, it vomits the beneficial bacteria to digest food, so you could have more problems if it gets another food item and it vomits again. You now need to feed in small items for a month or longer to ensure it builds up its beneficial bacteria. Oh, and wait two weeks to feed it again. The earlier you feed it, the more likely it will vomit again. If it starts to loose weight rapidly, then the problem may be bad bacteria, a virus, or parasites. Mostly likely it is not, so do not worry and do not handle the snake at all unless its a must to clean its cage.

Dan

Oh, 84 and 92 are too warm. I would have a it at 76 at night and 82 in the day. And heating pads will cook the food in the snakes belly if it gets too hot, so if your using one, get rid of it.

Dan

your temps are fine if they are accurate. and it is not necessary to lower them at night.

heat pads are also fine...as long as your temp is accurate.

I disagree, a range of 84 and 92 is way too warm especially for a baby boa. And especially for a baby boa that has vomited and is already suffering from dehydration. I have visited many a rain forest around the equator and the temperature drops in the 70's at night and sometimes in the 60's. And I have heard and seen dozens if not a hundred cases where heat pads were not used properly and made the snake vomit from overheating the snake. I dont know this guy, but if its a question of lowering the heat, get rid of the heat pad. It might be good in the winter, but not now in dead summer. Heat tape if better. And you may have success with a heat pad, that is fine, however I have never seen a need or use for one in 30 years of keeping snakes. I personally use lighting for heating as its natural to the snake for the heat source to come from above.

Dan

Again.... do not get rid of the heat pad. You can take the advice of someone who has dealt with boas for 30 years and obviously is not known. Or you can take the advice of the people known for producing the best boas on the planet. Peter Kahl, Rich Ihle, Jeremy Stone and Jeff Ronne are only a few examples of people that ONLY use lights as a source to see their animals. Instead of getting rid of your heat mat get a good thermostat. I'm sure this "other person" will continue to argue and press the issue that he has 30 years experience, so to end this argument I suggest you contact Jeremy Stone as he has dealt with this issue with great success. And feeding a pinky mouse in a week will be fine for the boa; the meal is so small that it will not take the boa much effort to digest it. Again, people will tell you that they are right and that you are doing things wrong, ignore these people and go to the experts. I named a few on top and they're links on kingsnake to their websites.

I vouch for oxyrhopus and know his experience from this and many other forums. If only I'd be so fortunate as to have a collection as his.

My own knowledge and experience also has led me to use overhead lighting as the heat source as well. Heat tape works, and is fine so is not a bad alternative. Heating pads are a poor-mans version of heat tape and like everything else, you get what you pay for.

And those temps he gave might be during the day when the heat pad and/or lighting is on and perhaps he does turn the heating source off and there is a nice drop in temps. But to advise someone who maintains his snake at an average temp in the upper 80's, and to permit a drop is not safe to me, and I am not sure why you would think that is OK for a baby boa or even an adult boa for that matter.

Dan

and you will see that it is not necessary to have the temps drop at night unless you are breeding. while some may have success that way... most of the successful breeders will tell you you don't need the drop. a 92 degree hot spot is fine, although some will probably say 84 degress on the cool end should be dropped a couple of degrees.

check out the care sheet info from clay english and you will get most of your questions answered. the site is:

http://www.redtailboas.com/general_care/general_care.html

also, having light 24 hours a day is not recommended. almost of of the "expert" breeders use under the tank heating.
Boa Care Sheet

Research what on the web? I guess perhaps you don't know me and my experience of keeping boas for many years and my success with treating sickened snakes. That is fine, and I just think those temps are too hot especially for a dehydrated snake, and I do not think I said keep a light on for 24 hours a day as that would add stress to the snake.

Dan

it was for the person needing help.

i am sure you are an expert. i was just going by what the clarks, ronne's, etc of the world advise on temps. i just have never heard anyone say 92 on the hot spot is to high.

i don't think the temps are what caused this. my guess is the animal regurged because it was transported and put in a new environment right after it ate.

Yea, and I figure a few things also. Its a baby snake perhaps stuck in a 10 gallon tank or maybe 20? Either case, a warm spot of 92 is fine, however not many baby boas go to a basking spot during the day to warm up. They perhaps prefer to go in their hide box and do not emerge until lights out. Now in winter that snake may make it to a basking spot but I perhaps not now, especially being sick. Either case, the web is a good suggestion you made for researching information. Personally I dont know why half these folks are not asking the person they bought the snake from? I guess some pet stores do not have the information?

Dan

I didn't call the breeder because it's a holiday weekend and they're closed.

Thanks for the help.

Most breeders continue to cheek their emails even after they are closed. Try emailing them. Regurgitating is a problem that you don't want to have. The good thing is that the boa has regurged only once (that you know of). So, if this is the first time, take your time in rectifying the problem correctly. The delay in recovery and even death comes from people being too impatient and rushing recovery. It will take numerous weeks before the boa starts feeding regularly. Wait about a week and feed ONE pinky. In the meantime contact the original seller and get as much information as possible (this will help you determine if there were other factors in the regurgitation). If the boa does not regurge the pinky after a week, try giving another one. The boa will not gain drastic weigth with pinkies but that is okay, YOUR BOA WILL NOT STARVE. Have you looked the boa over for mites?

I definitely agree with chiplatham when it comes to keeping your boas. He clearly stated that a "heat pad is okay to use..... IF THE TEMP. IS ACCURATE". It does not matter of its heat tape or a heat matt just as long as you are using a good quality thermostat that gives you good temperature control.

Sorry Dan but I really don't agree with the way you keep your boas, keeping them for 30 years does not make you an expert or means you keep your boas better then anyone else. Especially since it seems you are keeping your boas in a manner most high end breeders would find outdated. I don't know of ANY established breeders that use lights for heat in their enclosures. A snake does not get most of its basking heat from above but from the ground. If the air temperature is 90 the ground temp. is maybe 99 (in the sun/when basking). That is why people now use "heat guns" to determine basking temperatures. If you want heat from above I suggest using heat panels.

Back to the subject, the following are conditions for keeping your boa/s. Oxyrhopus may not like them but it's the exact same conditions Rich Ihle uses, so you make the call.

The ambient temperature inside the enclosure should be about 85 degrees with a warm side of 95 degrees. The “hot spot” of the enclosure should be about 104 degrees (check with a heat gun). Humidity should be kept at over 60% (spraying on a daily basis will accomplish this).

Hope this info. helps.

I do not think it is wise to even consider to advise this fellow to feed his snake one week after it vomited a mouse. Even a pink may be vomited if he takes that risk, and if it vomits again, then the baby boa may become further dehydrated and eventually die from organ failure. There is much information on how to maintain snakes which vomited with probiotics and proper temps. In severe cases, I administer about 1/2 cc of probiotic to help establish a good bacteria count so the snake can digest food better in two weeks. And I never said I was an expert or kept my boas better than anyone else. I said I treated dozens if not hundreds of baby boas that have regurged and I have been very successful. And your wrong about the heat source as in the rain forest, if a boa basks it usually heads for an area where the sun is making it through the forest, and most bask somewhere in a tree. And I also did not say that breeders use lights to maintain their boas. That would be hard to install with most housings arrangements for large breeding boas. However the case, maintaining a large heathy boa with a 12 inch heat pad is quite different from putting that same heat pad on a 10 gallon tank with a sick baby boa. If I had a dime for every novice boa keeper who brought me a burnt and dried up and dehydrated baby boa or ball python from those heat pads, I would rich. Perhaps if you've experienced the same, you might have a better understand where I am aiming to help this fellow.

as to heat and light and such...the school of thought has changed over the years and for good reason. most baby boas on the trade market today never basked in the sun in the rain forest.... nor did their parents, grand parents, great grand parents, etc.

for wild caught animals.. i would agree with the old school view. it is just that very few colombians in the trade market are wild caught specimans these days. most have been bred in captivity for generation after generation.

Well I do not think this is an old school/new school issue. I think your advice and the other fellows advice was fine for a larger healthy boa. Sure I would wait a week with a 3 foot boa and offer a smaller food item, however I have done that with many a baby boa and it has proven to regurg again or poop out a partly digest meal, and even worse, permitted bad bacteria to have something else to feed on. However when I provide a baby boa to someone, I recommend a high temperature in the low to mid 80's and that can be accomplished with a a simple tube lighting for 5 bucks at Walmart or a small heat pad for a 10 or 20 gallon tank. A timer on the light or heat pad will allow it to go off several hours during the evening so the snake can enjoy a temperature fluctuation to the upper 70's. Perhaps you and others may not agree that a temp fluctuation is necessary, however I have found it very essential to rearing many species and I try to replicate what they experience in nature. And when I was in tropical rain forests, it got down right cold for two or three hours in the evening. I am not saying do this for a captive specimen confined to a 10 gallon tank, however these species do thrive like this in the wild. And I personally maintain myself well over 100 different species of snakes, and I do not mean 100 different snakes, I mean 100 different species. So that ought to give you some degree of what I am jumbling with trying to keep conditions accurate for each different species from arid dwelling snakes to tropical forest snakes, to water dwelling snakes. And it has worked great for me. If something else works for someone else, that is fine too. I am always open for suggestions and learn stuff every day even from the most inexperienced person.

However the case, some novices place the pad under the hide source and over a few weeks the snake is dehydrated and the snake remains in its hide log most of the time. And of course, if the person is located in a cooler climate, and their room temp is in the low 70's or upper 60's, they will of course need a heat pad on 24 hours a day, however only partly beneath the hide log. Oh, and I have visited many boa breeder operations and they use heat tape and panels and some have installed lighting for heat during the winter. However the case in south Florida where I am located, heat pads and the such are not as practical for most of the year.

Again, why do you keep bringing up your experience? It really doesn't matter if you've dealt with 10,000 different species? We are only concerned with redtail boas and most people here have dedicated their time, effort and money into only this species so your knowledge of a black mamba means nothing. Snake keeping has evolved and it's obvious some people have not caught up. Like I said the "credible breeders" that we all know like Peter Kahl, Rich Ihle, Jeremy Stone and Jeff Ronne only use lights to view their boas. Please contact them as they will be able to give you accurate steps to take for the recovery of your boa.

This is my last message as by know we know that someone will continue to respond with how many years experience they have and how many 100 different species of snake but only one boa and that their way is the correct way.

Your gonna make false accusations about me owning black mambas and never post again? That is very mature of you.

I never mentioned my experience but once, so what gives with your misleading statement? And it was only made to counter someone who recommended something that I believe may lead to the baby boas eventual death. So sue me for being a concerned citizen.

And what gave you the impression I have black mambas? I do not have black mambas. But black mambas use the sun, not the ground for thermal regulation just like a boa. Happens to also be contrary to your observations about boas.

What gave you the impression I have one boa in my collection? I presently have 20 boas in my collection. At one point I had 100 or more boas in my collection. And I have successfully bred them since the 80's and helped and consulted with some of the same people you mentioned. And I might have taught them something so why are you allowing my experience to bother you?

I have to admit that I am a bit excited this week. I bred waiego island tree boas several months ago and the Mom is gonna drop any day now. I am not aware of any other person who has kept and bred this specific island species since it has only been recently imported, so I may be the first. And if you can put me in contact with anyone else experienced in this species, I would appreciate it. Thanks..

Dan

and mainly interested in effeciency.

When keeping a certain species becomes an artform of masterfully mimicking the natural environmental factors the animal benefits the most. While naturalistic vivaria (whether it's the entire enclosure or just a viewpoint on a heating/lighting debate) suite some people, others are interested mainly in what keeps the animal alive and/or breeding.

A long time ago success was measured by keeping an animal alive in captivity. Then it was lengthening the lifespan. Now succuss is defined as maintaining the animal adequately enough where there is successfull breeding. When are we going to quite with the present bar of success and just do everything we can to allow our animals to flourish?

for boa constrictors that are captive bred, their natural habitat is the environment of the breeders they were bred from. keeping a "pet" in the us means keeping a captive boa.... unless one plans on letting it roam around the back yard and lives in florida or california.

it is not to say that a boa would not do well with heat and light from above...treees in their enclosure, etc. but that is NOT the point.

the point is that boas in captivity have been proven to live long healthy lives with "captive" "Mass" methods.

I wasn't saying that the mass methods don't work. The many recognized experts you mentioned are proof of that. To think that they are a snake version of puppy mills may be a bit misleading. My point was merely that snakes have not evolved to conform to captivity in the few generations that had occured in the last 10, 20, or even 100yrs. They are designed to florish in their native habitat. My position is more noticeable in other, more demanding species while the boa has minimal needs. I believe this idealogy pertains to all species, however unnoticeable. Captive animals live longer due to better nutrition, health care, and the lack of predators. Not because they live in a box that is heated from either above or below.

np

keep the animal in a draft free place,92 is great for a hot spot as long as it can cool off to 84 to 82 like you said you have it,,,,NOW do not feed it.wait 3 weeks please. its for the aniamls own good and you'll be happier in the future,"was the stool that it passed real ruiny?After 3 weeks feed it something very small like something that wouldn't leave a lump in it,and wait a week at least and allways keep fresh water with the animal it could have been something it ate with the mouse that messed its gutts up,so take it easy on feeding as this will make it all that much of a problem........
Greg
this will work i have seen it work time and time again so please don't try and bash on me,as some think they know everything.i'm just trying to help him keep his animal alive and healthy
Link

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Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

Thanks you! Very much the same advise my breeder gave me.

It sounds right on the money.