Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just received the worst snakes I have bought in years. I am let down about the wasted cash but even more it is probably going to cost me a pretty penney to take thses guys to a vet. They arrived looking too thin[in my opinion]. They don't look like captive born,,,,,moreso like wild caughts due to their somewhat ragged appearance. So I left them alone in thier temporary tank for 24 hours. The next day I take a better look at them and they just look a little wrong. Minutes after putting one back he laid the nastiest pile of god knows what. I don't know if it came out of his mouth or his,,,,,you know. It was chunky and white and smelled worse than anything I ever smelled from a snake. I felt I had to feed them asap and to my surprise they both ate. The stools from the snake I just mentioned looked better this time. Unfortunately the other snake regurged and it was hideous. It always is but this seemd even nastier than usual. These guys are about 3 foot and supposedl het for white sided. We'll see about that if they pull through. The dealer has not returned my emails since I first complained. Is regurge common in rat snakes? I mean these are sub adults.......not tiny hatchlings so besides the occaisional time a food item a little too large for a snake was consumed[which was not the case here]I practically never see this happen. Has anyone ever seen anything like I described concerning that awful white chunky slop? I have nowhere to keep these snakes except in the same room with my other herps, they're on the quarantine side and that's at least 5 or 6 feetfrom the other stuff but this sucks because I have a lot of snakes, and all are in perfect health. I hate to think these sick animals are near them. Please let me know what you think? Thanks Tom

As far as I know, regurging is not a common problem w/rat snakes. However, it sometimes indicates improper temperature. Snakes require a certain temperature range in order to digest their food properly - generally around 85F plus or minus a few degrees is optimal. Too hot or too cold and they may not be able to process their food. So one suggestion is to monitor the temperature closely in their enclosure.

But from what you describe, there appears to be more to it. Can you be more specific about how they "just look a little wrong"? How are they behaving? Active, secretive, lethargic?

Another possibility is that they somehow ingested something they shouldn't have - possibly diseased mice, or something toxic to them, perhaps even some substrate. Until or unless they begin to feed, digest, and "process" normally, I would avoid anything like aspen bedding or reptile bark, and just stay with newspaper or paper towels or something like that. (Easier to clean up, too!) Keep the enclosure clean, and the water fresh.

The snakes themselves also may be suffering from some illness or disease, but only a qualified herp vet can make that determination. If you are in an area where Black Rats are indigenous, you may be able to find a herp vet that will examine and diagnose them free of charge. But since you bought them, I think that's unlikely. If they don't improve over the next few days, you may have no choice but to take them to a vet.

I wish you luck, and hope this helps. michaelb

Thanks for writing, my temps are optimal, my room has 38 snakes and 29 hatchlings too. Theyre on newspaper[ I usually use carefresh] and they always have clean water,...and tanks for that matter. They are not very active but do poop a little almost every day since I had them. That first mess the one left was hideous and just looked sickly. The ones head looks too big for his body and the other was so thin it just about had the fold near the tail that a sickly thin snake will show when its in bad shape. I am checking on them and all my snakes about 3 times a day and now I am in a bind even more seeing they both puked,,,,,I can't feed them for several days now. To get back to how they resemble wild caughts.......all i can say is in my experience usually captive born animals barely have a scale out of place and shine like healhty animals should. This pair looks run down and the skin is a little rough and very dried out looking. Since they've been here and been fed and given clean water they did perk up a bit, which only enforces my suspicions they were not cared for properly by the guy I got them from. The disharge form the ones looked like rotten lumpy milk! gross! I will write again and let you guys know if theyre doing better or worse. Thanks Tom

Let me start with these are only my opinions.....

I never feed snakes that just arrived, I set them up and feed them in a week or so. The regurge could have been due to the stress of shiping. More likely it is due to something else like an internal parasite load. I would definately get any parasite problem taken care of right from the start. I would also keep them on newspaper and check the water bowl for mites. If they are wild caught they probally have internal parasites and mites.
I really hope they are cb and het for white sided as the seller said they were. I hate to hear about misrepresentation and rip off but they sure do happen. Keep us posted and don't hesitate to email me with questions.

Thanks
Don Gallagher

Hello and thanks for writing. I usually never feed snakes for a few days or a week when they arrive but these guys were just too thin. They looked not far from showing that sickly fold in the skin near the tail and I just figured the guy who had them before me was not feeding them much.One has a scar on his head, the other seemed a little better looking but that one regurged too. They are on newspaper and I have cleaned every bit of feces and disinfected the area with Nolvasan soon after it happens. I have over 30 snakes and they are all well cared for. I had a Suboc recently get mouthrot, and I took it to the vet immediately and he seems back to normal now, but man it cost me 160 bucks on top of the 250 dollars I paid for the snake. It was either too moist[though only form the water dish being in the tank] or a sliver of aspen from another tank fell into his and ended up in his mouth. Regardless, that was the first sick snake I have had in years. If it is my fault, or just one of those things that happens to the best of us I am all about getting the snake back to perfect health. In this situation I am at a loss cause I wan't the snakes ot be healthy, whether theyre hets or not, but this all relates back to one saying, you get what you pay for. Tom

Good luck w/those guys Tom it sounds like you are doing an awsome job w/those guys. I have been a certified vet tech for 12 yrs and work with a good herp vet in Mesa. I know what you mean about the bill getting up there, I'd have a hard time affording it if I wasn't in the position I am in.

I think about what I have heard about subocs being sensitive to water in their cages every time I slide a box in and water spills. I have been lucky and not had a problem yet. This is my best yr for subocs, I woke up to 7 eggs yesterday and have two more gravid females. Good luck w/ the black rats and your collection.

Don

Ya know being a Jersey Dog[ curently living in TX] I never got to see a Suboc when I was younger. They looked nice in the books I had but to hold one is just about as cool as it gets being a snake lover. Thier calm temperments and sleek body design is just too cool for words. I bought a pair of Axanthics Blondes and now I have the fever. I want more but I usually don't buy more than 1.1 of anything til i see how I do with them. They seem a little more fragile then most snakes, but this is why I was so alarmed about my Black Rats. The ones I have seen looked pretty muscular if ya know what I mean, and mine looked more like the Subocs........thin and fragile. I swear even though they regurged they got some nutrition out of the meal I gave them and now seem a little more beefy. Many of us snake guys have several snakes, I barely know anyone who only owns one. And getting caught in a bind like I am can really suck. I was so used to receiving quality animals that I didn't take into consideration that these would arrive sick. My rodent bill annually is huge and I really don't have the money to go to the vet right now. I was at the end of my snake budget when I made this purchase. luckily a friend from my herp club is coming by with Meds soon. My Suboc seems to have made a full recovery, i am hoping these Blacks do too. It will suck if they are not het for white sided......but for now I will be happy just to see them return to health. The paranoia of these snakes contaminating the rest of my collection is the worst part, so as you can imagine these guys are in the cleanest tanks imaginable. Glad I got some vet strength disinfectant. It makes this crisis a lot easier to deal with. Good luck with your Subocs. I will be starting a new thread on the Blacks in a day or 2. One of them ate last night, I hope it keeps the meal down. c ya Tom

I would have to agree that the regurge could possibly be just from the stress of shipping. Being too thin could signal an internal parasite of some king though. Next time they poo, take a sample to your vet and have him check it for parasites (preferrably on the same day). If he can't or won't, find a veterinary teaching hospital and take it there. Certain parasites, such as crypto (extremely rare in CB) can spread quite rapidly to other herps by contact with feces. Keep the cages clean, clean, clean until you know something and make certain to wash your hands well after handling the new snakes or even feeding or cleaning their enclosures.

good luck,
e

After hearing that they just don't look right.I'm hoping they did not send you W/C and pass them off as Het Whitesided.Don't get me wrong,I have two wild caught black rats,but they have both adjusted well and have never regurged.
It just seems fishy that the dealer will not respond to you about the issue at hand.Good luck and keep us posted on your progress with them.

I agree with the others that the stress from transport may be a factor. But I still think there's more to it.

The fact that BOTH snakes are showing similar symptoms gives me cause for concern. You clearly have enough experience to suggest that it's not a result of contamination at your end, or improper housing/temperature. There's something here involving disease, parasites, or some kind of toxin.

If it's toxin of some kind, they might work it out of their systems and show improvement. But if it were me, I wouldn't take the chance. I support the other posts here: get fecal samples and get them in to have a vet examine them asap, especially if they do not show definite signs of improvement over the next day or so.

Good luck and keep us advised,
Michaelb

Hi.... I was wondering if you went to the Board Of Inquiry with this. Would love to know who sold you these snakes so I won't do business with them. Was also wondering how the snakes are doing.... and you too.

MissHisssss

I sure did post my story on the BOI. I am so bummed about this. It is on page 2[I believe]I also use the screen name Nokturnel Tom on there. I would just give you the title of the post but is specific and names the biz name and the persons name and I think that is not allowed on this forum. Tomorrow is the big day the snakes get weighed and dosed with Meds. Believe me when I say I wish this could've been taken care of allready but I am basically trading a hatchling for this service from a buddy of mine and he couldn't get over here til tomorrow. I made a big mistake with this purchase by only speaking to one of this persons references, After the fact I emailed the other one he gave me and the guy said he has never done buisness with them, ouch! My collection is close ot 40 breeders and to think that these guys have to be in the same room with them is just awful. I have things maintained perfectly though and am disinfecting like a madman. If you don't find the post on the BOI i can email you off this forum. I would hate for anyone else to fall victim to this guy. As the moral of story goes, If it's too good to be true, it probably is. Tom

Hi Tom.... I found it on the BOI. Thanks for putting it on there to help others. I'm amazed at how many bad reptile people there are out there trying to rip people off. What a shame!!! I hope things work out for you, and your snakes, Tom. Keep us posted.

MissHisssss