Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

I was wondering if modified barns would make good enclosures. How easy is it to maintain heat and humidity? Could a "greenhouse" like enclosure be made easily with a barn-like structure?

I am looking for info on building LARGE enclosures. Any help would be fantastic.

Thanks and Best Wishes,

Chris

Chris,

I have built and helped design enclosures for crocodilians. I also am friends with curators of two of the largest croc collections in the country and have seen their holding facilities.

Modified barns do make good enclosures and there are ways to make them quite efficient at maintaining heat.

How large of an enclosure do you need and what will you be using for pools?

I'm very busy this week but will try to help.
-----
Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

2.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

4.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

Hi Chris,

As far as pools are concerned, I haven't quite figured that out yet. I am still pondering back and forth from more natural ponds, concrete ponds, the thin pond layering (quadruple padded), or one of those preformed pool liners that have descending depths. I was thinking at minimum of a 35' x 35' enclosure. I already have some drawn plans that I would share, however, I decided to break my scanner. I will try doing another one in paint or something, but I can't guarantee that it is going to be that good. Of course, I would like it to be as cost effective, but at the same time, be perfect for my crocs. At the same time, I thought about building a second one, that I could use to house other snakes, monitors, etc. If you have pictures, or already made plans with some info that I could use to better educate myself, I would be forever thankful.

You can either respond here or send me an email at the link above, whichever is most convenient for you.

Thanks a ton for your help!

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>Chris,
>>
>>I have built and helped design enclosures for crocodilians. I also am friends with curators of two of the largest croc collections in the country and have seen their holding facilities.
>>
>>Modified barns do make good enclosures and there are ways to make them quite efficient at maintaining heat.
>>
>>How large of an enclosure do you need and what will you be using for pools?
>>
>>I'm very busy this week but will try to help.
>>-----
>>Current snakes:
>>
>>1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)
>>
>>2.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)
>>
>>4.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

It sounds like you are planning on a pretty permanent facility. Sounds awesome.

At that size I would look into the metal barns. You'll likely be using a lot of radiant heat so I recommend you insulate the building yourself. Don't just use a stock insulation package that comes with these metal barns.

A super cheap choice are those metal barns that basically look like half of a large galvanized pipe. These don't utilize space that well but if you have your ponds against the walls the lack of height is less important.

Regarding the pools, I highly recommend concrete. I have poured several of them for turtles, fish, and crocodilians. It is not very difficult. I learned how to do it with an outdoor water pond book put out by Sunset Magazine. You know, one of those $10 books from Home Depot.

Concrete ponds are much easier to keep clean, especially for crocodilians.

Having drains running to the local sewer lines is ideal, but if that's not possible then use submersible pump wells that are outside each enclosure in your walkway. I built a turtle pond once with one of these wells and keeping things clean was not that difficult.

HHHmmm,

Metal Barns. Never thought of that one. Yes I do plan to make this permanent. Do you happen to have any websites that show those and give pricing?

As far as the concrete pool is concerned, that is pretty much what I was thinking. The only thing that I am concerned about is the concrete causing irritation to the bottom of the croc's bodies when they belly-slide down into the pool. Is there a good way to seal the concrete and at the same time, make it not so abrasive? I certainly plan on running the drain into a local sewer line. It will certainly make life easier.

Your time is much appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>It sounds like you are planning on a pretty permanent facility. Sounds awesome.
>>
>>At that size I would look into the metal barns. You'll likely be using a lot of radiant heat so I recommend you insulate the building yourself. Don't just use a stock insulation package that comes with these metal barns.
>>
>>A super cheap choice are those metal barns that basically look like half of a large galvanized pipe. These don't utilize space that well but if you have your ponds against the walls the lack of height is less important.
>>
>>Regarding the pools, I highly recommend concrete. I have poured several of them for turtles, fish, and crocodilians. It is not very difficult. I learned how to do it with an outdoor water pond book put out by Sunset Magazine. You know, one of those $10 books from Home Depot.
>>
>>Concrete ponds are much easier to keep clean, especially for crocodilians.
>>
>>Having drains running to the local sewer lines is ideal, but if that's not possible then use submersible pump wells that are outside each enclosure in your walkway. I built a turtle pond once with one of these wells and keeping things clean was not that difficult.

>> Metal Barns. Never thought of that one. Yes I do plan to make this permanent. Do you happen to have any websites that show those and give pricing?

No, but I'm sure you can fine a distributor in your area. They are pretty common. You can often buy used ones. You have to take them apart and reassemble, of course.

>>As far as the concrete pool is concerned, that is pretty much what I was thinking. The only thing that I am concerned about is the concrete causing irritation to the bottom of the croc's bodies when they belly-slide down into the pool. Is there a good way to seal the concrete and at the same time, make it not so abrasive?

I have seen an awful lot of croc holding tanks made of bare concrete so I assume it is not an issue. Epoxy pool paint can be used but it is very expensive and not easy to work with.
-----
Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

2.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

4.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

Ok sounds good. I will look into those. Is there a need to "seal" the concrete at all, just due to leakage and so forth? Do you happen to have any pics of croc enclosures using these particular "Metal Barns"? I can't say that I have ever personally seen them, but they certainly sound interesting.

Thanks for all of your help!

Chris

>>>> Metal Barns. Never thought of that one. Yes I do plan to make this permanent. Do you happen to have any websites that show those and give pricing?
>>
>>No, but I'm sure you can fine a distributor in your area. They are pretty common. You can often buy used ones. You have to take them apart and reassemble, of course.
>>
>>>>As far as the concrete pool is concerned, that is pretty much what I was thinking. The only thing that I am concerned about is the concrete causing irritation to the bottom of the croc's bodies when they belly-slide down into the pool. Is there a good way to seal the concrete and at the same time, make it not so abrasive?
>>
>>I have seen an awful lot of croc holding tanks made of bare concrete so I assume it is not an issue. Epoxy pool paint can be used but it is very expensive and not easy to work with.
>>-----
>>Current snakes:
>>
>>1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)
>>
>>2.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)
>>
>>4.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

>>Ok sounds good. I will look into those. Is there a need to "seal" the concrete at all, just due to leakage and so forth?

I don't have any pics. I'll e-mail my friend and see if his facility seals their concrete pools.

Are you posting these questions on the croc forum? I imagine there are a lot of people over there with experience with this stuff.
-----
Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

2.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

4.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

>>Are you posting these questions on the croc forum? I imagine there are a lot of people over there with experience with this stuff.

Yes, I have posted these questions in the past. They usually give ideas, but most of them dont respond. I also ask for other pics of facilities and so forth, but no such luck there.

hey chris...
I would like to help... but I dont know what are "barns"..

could you explain or mail me a pic..

tks

rick

UUhhh,

You know like horse and cow barns. Something of that similarity, but "modified" so that it can hold heat and moisture well.

>>hey chris...
>>I would like to help... but I dont know what are "barns"..
>>
>>could you explain or mail me a pic..
>>
>>tks
>>
>>rick

>>As far as the concrete pool is concerned, that is pretty much what I was thinking. The only thing that I am concerned about is the concrete causing irritation to the bottom of the croc's bodies when they belly-slide down into the pool. Is there a good way to seal the concrete and at the same time, make it not so abrasive?

>>>I have seen an awful lot of croc holding tanks made of bare concrete so I assume it is not an issue. Epoxy pool paint can be used but it is very expensive and not easy to work with.

The zoo I work at housed 1.1 African Dwarf Crocodiles [one is the oldest in captivity and the oldest known crocodilian] in a pool with gunnite walls and a gunnite deck. If you know zoo construction, gunnite is a pressure-blown concrete that dries with a very rough texture. The crocs never had any skin issues from the gunnite, getting in or out of the pool. Keepers however curse the stuff as a light brush against it with our flimsy skin often results in road-rash [had more than my fair share]. Those crocs are now housed in a different building with a smoother deck that I believe is painted with an epoxy sealant of some sort or it may be simply dyed and sealed concrete. We now house a Dwarf Caiman in the aforementioned pool and he hasn't had any issues either although he spends probably 99.999999 percent of his time in the water.
-----
Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

Matt,

Thank you for your response. Understanding that crocs have very tough skin, and minor abrasiveness shouldnt be a problem. I just wasn't sure about over a period of time whether it could cause any irritation to their undersides. Looks like I dont have to be that concerned about it.

Thanks for the info, and if you happen to have any croc enclosure pics or anything I would appreciate it if you would post them. I am CONSTANTLY looking for ideas. I just want to make sure that their permanent enclosure is perfect in every way.

Thanks again for the help!

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>>>As far as the concrete pool is concerned, that is pretty much what I was thinking. The only thing that I am concerned about is the concrete causing irritation to the bottom of the croc's bodies when they belly-slide down into the pool. Is there a good way to seal the concrete and at the same time, make it not so abrasive?
>>
>>>>>I have seen an awful lot of croc holding tanks made of bare concrete so I assume it is not an issue. Epoxy pool paint can be used but it is very expensive and not easy to work with.
>>
>>The zoo I work at housed 1.1 African Dwarf Crocodiles [one is the oldest in captivity and the oldest known crocodilian] in a pool with gunnite walls and a gunnite deck. If you know zoo construction, gunnite is a pressure-blown concrete that dries with a very rough texture. The crocs never had any skin issues from the gunnite, getting in or out of the pool. Keepers however curse the stuff as a light brush against it with our flimsy skin often results in road-rash [had more than my fair share]. Those crocs are now housed in a different building with a smoother deck that I believe is painted with an epoxy sealant of some sort or it may be simply dyed and sealed concrete. We now house a Dwarf Caiman in the aforementioned pool and he hasn't had any issues either although he spends probably 99.999999 percent of his time in the water.
>>-----
>>Matt Campbell
>>25 years herp keeping experience
>>Full-time zookeeper
>>Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

a modified barn sounds like it could work very well for an enclosure. i would say to ad two or more large skylights to the roof to allow for natural sunlight to light the barn for the most part, as well asa to provide a green house effect for heat. the barn would also be nice because of the height, which could be used to provide cave type burrows and a deel pool without sacraficing much space. i would also look into insulating the walls to cut down on the amount of energy needed to heat the place. good luck with it, sounds like a good project.