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2004 Jungle Male - This guy has some really hard to pick up coloration. From some angles / lighting it barely shows the color... in others it shows up well. I picked out the ones that are the best representation.

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Guy Scavone II
GS2boas.com

pattern, my harlequin ... and now my jungle! I guess im just a color freak!

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np

to them.
Awesome animal.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

What I don't understand or seem to grasp is how some people can say they definitely can tell a jungle from a normal, yet Peter Kahl who has been working and is more familiar with this strain of boas then most of us has cases in which he can't tell wether a boa is definitely a jungle or not. Am I missing something here? If they can be identified the why were two possible jungles sold by Peter?

to those who produced jungles this year...
How many "possible" jungles did you sell? If my guess is correct probably none.

Therefore you either sold some jungles that were not, or conversely you sold normals that were jungles.

In the latter case those that were bought as normals will indeed produce jungles in the future...

But they cannot be sold as jungles because they were bought as normals....

This is all very confusing.

Bob

In no way shape or form are these comments made to degrade the people who have invested large amounts of dollars on their jungles and produced. What I'm getting at is that we all know that exceptional colored animals will come from normal boas. Who has not seen a boa from a regular breeding that just caught your eye and you say "wow"? How many people have seen aberrant boas (very similar to jungles) from regular breedings? We all pretty much know that we can get these type of boas with regular breedings, yet we act like if these kind of boas cannot be produced in jungle breedings (from what I have observed). I don't believe I have observed a case of an aberrant boa being born in a jungle litter and not be labeled a jungle. Who has not seen a boa born from a jungle litter and because 2 of the saddles are connected they were sold off as jungles? I'm not saying these boas were wrongfully sold. What I do believe is that as these boas become more common and more generations are born, we will eventually find a case or a few were a boa was sold off as a jungle and proved out to be normal/aberrant. This is just my opinion, what do you guys think?

A question to ask yourself; If I took the 4th female (or many of the other boas in that litter) in Jeff Risher’s (Hall Of Fame Reptiles) aberrant salmon litter and put it in a salmon jungle litter, would you be able to pick it out and say it’s not a jungle?

Notice from the pictures of my jungle above how there is a clear distinction between the lateral coloration and the dorsal coloration. It is a sudden and obvious change. This is a jungle trait. I have seen a range of different quality jungles and this trait has been apparent in each of them.

Also notice the bordering around the tail splotches, it is increased. Its even more obvious in person.

Those are just a couple jungle traits. Obviously pattern anomolies are another... undertone washout... etc.

Is it possible that, in a jungle litter, some will be borderline and hard to call? Of course, as you said, it's apparent that that is true because Pete has sold possible jungles. I believe however the vast majority of the time the jungle traits will stand out easily distinguishing them from the non-jungles. That possibility is a factor to consider, its not something one will encounter with hypo, albino, motley, etc boas. That aspect is no where near enough to keep me away from jungles however .

How many "possible" jungles did you sell? If my guess is correct probably none.

Amazing how you can keep banging your head on the wall about this morph, it seems you are interested in Jungles, why dont you just buy one and then you can stop guessing.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions. The whole point is to get as much information as possible before buying, not vice versa.

I saw the litter you produced and those are some excellent boas indeed. But isn't the purpose of a forum to ask questions or come up with educated guesses of what could be? I think what Robert meant is that only Peter Kahl sold possible jungles and as of this date (or that I know of) no one else has. Maybe only Peter was put into a situation where he was not sure, who knows?

I also want to get into jungles but that does not mean that I won't ask myself if my boa will produce a colorful and aberrant boa that will not be a jungle. Shoot, if my previous thoughts or comments don't seem to make sense let me know, that is why I posted them. All I ask is that you stand in a neutral position when giving your opinion, and not give an opinion solely based on owning that particular type of boa.

Yes, Pete has sold a few "possible Jungles" and no one else who has produced Jungle Boas this season has done the same (that I know of YET).

Have we sold some Jungles as normals for $85.00? Possibly, because we did not offer any "possible Jungles" for sale. Have we sold any normals as Jungles? I certainly hope not but I guess I can not say, "NO definitely not" because there is always that possibility lurking. The important thing is that we and I can say probably all the other breeders that sold Jungle Boas this season (Greg, Mark, Pete, Rich etc.) will stand behind our animals and if we did make a mistake (because after all, we are only human), I have no doubt in my mind that we (as well as the others I mentioned), would certainly make good on that mistake.

Anyways, I digress. My point is, how many Jungle Boas has Pete produced over the years? How many Jungle Boas has Pete sold over the years versus how many "possible Jungle" Boas has Pete sold? I've only produced two litters so my production of Jungle Boas is no where close to Pete's. I think the other breeders can say the same. So, when our track record of production reaches the level of Pete's I have no doubt, we will probably be offering a couple of "possible Jungle" Boas for sale.

In fact, I have three males from my Jungle x Hypo litter that I will probably be offering as "possible Jungle" Hypos. The only reason I haven't put them up yet is because I wanted them to gain a little bit of size so I could better evaluate their potential.

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com

Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

np

because jungle projects are still relatively new to most (even though they've been around since the 90's) people will make mistakes. but like Celia said, the honest breeders will stand by their animals if some turn out not to be jungles (although i'm SURE that VERY few animals sold as jungles by honest people, will turn out to be normals).

buying jungles is like buying het albinos...any normal boa with a lot of specks can be sold as a het albino, just like any aberrant boa can be sold as a jungle...by scammers. buy from people who you trust.

about "poss" jungles...you wont see too many females sold because they are, more often then not, held back. but there are people selling "poss" jungles. i know Jeremy Stone did it last year and i'm sure others are doing it as well.

some people have asked "why purchase a jungle when i could buy a very aberrant normal for a couple grand less?" if you just want a pretty pet, then buy the normal aberrant...but if you want to consistently reproduce aberrants, buy a jungle. just like buying a hypo instead of just a very pink/red normal.

the jungle market is strong...people are confident in the product. we just have to keep an eye out for the scammers who make us all think twice before a purchase.

search for threads on this forum for jungles...you'll have enough to read for a day.

thanks
Nick

I don't feel the jungle trait is as strong as people hope it is. The reason is alot of people, including myself can't distuingish a jungle from a nice looking normal. Some will say color and others will say pattern. Not all have the color or pattern and thats a downfall to the jungle and if that wasn't the case we wouldn't have possible jungles. Unfortunately this morph has been beat up and defended so much people are scared to fork out the cash as an investment type boa for feel of no one will buy them. How would a jungle mistake be made right is some one got a normal? Paul

that's why these debates keep occurring. I really enjoy seeing these topics (although not with jungles...i'm sick of it LOL...kidding ) on the forums...because it enables us as a community to investigate how legit certain claimes are.

with regard to...how can someone make a case of mistaken identity right (by mistakenly selling a jungles that turns out to be normal)...obviously replacing that animal with a DEFINATE jungle, hopefully of the same age so the buyer doesn't waste too much more time recovering. But we cant save the world...mistakes DO happen in this industry. THATS why you see the sale of "possible" jungles...to limit the mistakes.

Mistakes occur in many situations...split litters for example. If someone breeds a hypo male and an albino male to a het albino female....even if the end result, out of 20 offspring, is 10 albinos and 10 normals...you can NOT be 100% sure that those "normals" are in fact 100% het albino. Its possible that some of the normals took the wild gene of the hypo...hence only being 50% het albino. I know that many breeders avoid breeding multiple males that are co-dom or dom, and simple recessive to any single female, due to the possibility of split litters. Even if you throw in a hypo with a het albino female, JUST for one day...then change your mind and replace the hypo with an albino male for the remainder of the season...if you get albinos there is STILL the possibility that the hypo was able to fertilize one or two or more. Point is...mistakes are inevitable in this industry...and NO ONE wants them to happen...they are HORRIBLE for both the seller and buyer. we are all trying our best to limit these mistakes and at the same time provide the public with some amazing animals.

As far of jungles retaining their value...there is no doubt in my mind that these bad boys aint going anywhere. Look at the arabesques...personally i LOVE that morph...but their value is to a point where one can purchase an arabesque het albino for the price of a high grade hypo. And there is NO DOUBT as to what's an arabesque and what's a normal. Even last year...Steve was selling super arabesques for only 5k, the very FIRST year they were produced?!?!? Now look at the popularity of the jungles...controversy and all...they have retained their value over the last 3 years or so...that goes to show that there are enough people who love that morph enough to keep it as one of the strongest Colombian morph investments out there. There are still relatively few jungles being produced...so the supply is no where close to meeting the demand. Hell, even if they do drop to $750 a pop...two litters a year...10 jungles per litter...i'm happy!

Bottom line is that the jungle is an awesome morph...the way it plays with an animals pattern and colors is extraordinary. Mixing and matching them into other morphs will keep us busy for a long while. As we have more experience with them...the "possible jungle" title will be thrown out the window. we'll be able to tell an ugly jungle from a pretty normal from across the room. Again i bring up "poss" het albinos...some say they can actually tell which are hets and which aren't just by noticing certain characteristics. The longer these animals are in our collections, I'm confident that we'll be able to eliminate all doubt as to jungle...or not a jungle.

To "TopNotchBoas"...sorry brother...this thread was started to celebrate your BEAUTIFULL boa I should have started a new thread to blabber on the way I am

Thanks,
Nick

You know that jungle pic in the paper back Boa Manual?? Does anyone have a pic of that one they can post? That one has an incredibly unique look to it. I have seen alot of stripes, aberancies, and blocks, but not too many with that type of look. That one that Topnotch posted sure does come close to the saddle outline look of that one, even though his has a more normal pattern...It sure is a very nice jungle for sure though. Thanks Andy

for the compliment regarding mine.

Your welcome....I like that look of your boa. It just jumps out at you when you look at it! Thanks again for the help, Andy

I brought this subject up a while back, only I used the Harlequin story...as I'm sure you all know. I have to agree that what is happening or has happened is some of these animals were sold off as normals and actually have the genetic traits that everyone here is refering to, and ended up being bred in someones collection.

The problem that I am understanding little by little is... unless you buy the brand name item, and pay the brand name price you only have a cheap counterfiet at best! ...Is that fair? Maybe it is...Nike, and others are always putting a stop to the counterfiets...

So where does this leave the guy or girl with the really nice animal that may or may not be the same as the origional (real) one?
Well I was told initially to name my own line...now I am told that I should not do so...
I just do not see the sense in releasing these wonderfully unique animals out into a market to create even more of a problem down the road.

I mean if everyone can use our cheaply priced boas to produce the same effect as the Harlequin or the Jungle does that not limit the real deal market for the Harlequin or the Jungle? This may take 5 years or so, but tell me why I should buy a Jungle or Harlequin if everyone begins producing the same look?

Think about this, I could have just as easilly bought the Jungle or the Harlequin, bred it into what I have and label them the brand name goods...Is that what you want? Either we got lucky with getting cheaply priced real deal animals, or we have a new name to put on them, or it will only water down the real market over time because people will eventually see that these animals are cheaper and produce the same results. It only gets worse when someone buys one male Jungle or Harlequin to breed to 3 or 4 of these cheap imitation females to then sell them as the real deals...then what?

I think what may be needed is we post pics of our animals and let the pros grade them into a category, maybe sell them as possibles until further breedings establish them, or allow us to market them as a new line and become the competition. At any rate, I just stated a bunch of opinions for thought and would like to read what you all have to say. Thanks Andy Federico

"I brought this subject up a while back, only I used the Harlequin story...as I'm sure you all know. I have to agree that what is happening or has happened is some of these animals were sold off as normals and actually have the genetic traits that everyone here is refering to, and ended up being bred in someones collection."

Regarding jungles, which is a single gene mutation (BLOODLINE), it would be simple to prove it came from the same line, breed it back to another jungle if you get supers that prove out from the litter, then you have a true sweedish line jungle. If you didnt, then you dont. It is certainly possible that jungles could have been sold, unknowingly, as normals.

"The problem that I am understanding little by little is... unless you buy the brand name item, and pay the brand name price you only have a cheap counterfiet at best! ...Is that fair? Maybe it is...Nike, and others are always putting a stop to the counterfiets..."

Again, jungle is a specifc single gene mutation... it is not phenotype look.

"So where does this leave the guy or girl with the really nice animal that may or may not be the same as the origional (real) one?"

Simple, prove it out by breeding it back to a jungle. Although, because jungles are so distinctly different, it would likely be easy to tell from any offspring, regardless of what it was bred to. But the sure (proven) way would be to produce a super by breeding it back to a sweedish line jungle.

"Well I was told initially to name my own line...now I am told that I should not do so...
I just do not see the sense in releasing these wonderfully unique animals out into a market to create even more of a problem down the road."

There are certain requirements to name a new line. People often think they have something unique when they actually have something fairly common. Be certain you have something unique and genetic prior to naming a line.

"I mean if everyone can use our cheaply priced boas to produce the same effect as the Harlequin or the Jungle does that not limit the real deal market for the Harlequin or the Jungle?"

Show me another single bloodline that consistantly creates all the traits of the jungles (extreme pattern anomolies, abrupt dorsal/lateral color change, increased borders, washout, etc) that also produces supers.

Harlequins are another issue in itself. Harlequins are not likely a single gene mutation, but rather multiple genes that has proven to throw multiple pattern and color anomalies. Again, thats a seperate issue. People may produce pattern aberrancies here and there with other lines BUT are they doing it consistantly and to the degree that harlequins are? Do they have comparable color? Keep in mind harlequins werent some long time selectively bred line that started throwing aberrancies (like hypo/salmons for example).

"This may take 5 years or so, but tell me why I should buy a Jungle or Harlequin if everyone begins producing the same look?"

Depends on what you are looking for. Like Nick said, if you want a pet that isnt likely to throw consistant pattern/color anomolies, certainly buy an aberrant normal. If you want something thats proven genetic, get a jungle or harlequin. Jungle vs harlequin is a totally seperate issue.

"Think about this, I could have just as easilly bought the Jungle or the Harlequin, bred it into what I have and label them the brand name goods...Is that what you want?"

If you have a jungle or harlequin bloodline and you breed it to your non jungle or harlequins ... of course ... name them jungles or harlequins. ???

"Either we got lucky with getting cheaply priced real deal animals, or we have a new name to put on them, or it will only water down the real market over time because people will eventually see that these animals are cheaper and produce the same results. It only gets worse when someone buys one male Jungle or Harlequin to breed to 3 or 4 of these cheap imitation females to then sell them as the real deals...then what?"

Imitation meaning what? Normal aberrant female? They dont throw the traits that jungles do nor are they likely genetic, it will be easily distinguishable which are and arent jungles for the most part.

"I think what may be needed is we post pics of our animals and let the pros grade them into a category, maybe sell them as possibles until further breedings establish them, or allow us to market them as a new line and become the competition."

Are you wanting to establish some new line? If so, feel free and post pictures and argue your case as to how you've proven it genetic and why it is unique in deserving its own line name. If it is underserving of a new line name, people will let you know, and vice versa.

Andy,I mean this with all due respect,and,it's not meant to hurt your feelings,(or,anyone elses,for that matter.)You have produced a SINGLE generation of nice hypos,and,you deserve both "kudos" & respect for that...however....You do NOT have Harlequins,nor,Jungles...Harlequins are NOT Jungles,AND,Jungles are not Harlequins! that being said,before you decide in a single generation to come up with a "brandname" for animals that have yet to celebrate their first birthday,much less,show any clear palpable evidence through breeding,to be anything other than exceptionally light/bright/colorful first generation hypos...it would be much more appropriate for you to set up a series of long term breeding trials to discover what,if anything,is going on in terms of actual genetic influence that can be proven,or,traced to one,or the other individuals of the original lines you crossed to make the animals you have now...neither adult was related to the other,so if anything specificlly unique has occured,it is either a combination effect,or,is carried by one,or the other parent.(MHO) "Harlequin" is the name of the bloodline that produces the animals I'm working with. It is NOT a specific mutation,or,appearence produced from it...in other words,when I produce a litter of babies I do not label 1/2 Harlequin,& the other half "normals"...the entire litter are Harlequin bloodline animals,and,I have kept VERY accurate track of how each litter has been produced,(this is the primary reason I use a strict filial labeling system,and,still adhear to it this far into the project.)In breeding these animals back to other partially related counterparts there has been a significant amplification in the resulting offspring. I believe that a homozygous form from this line can be produced,(I may be sitting on some now,but,I'm not going to infer that they are until they prove it to me through breeding results!)This is VERY different from what is taking place geneticlly with the Jungle line,it is showing a clear example of a true "co-dominant" mutation,whereas I believe that the Harlequin animals may be a form of "incomplete dominance",the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned,(and,ultimately I'M the one that must be completely convinced before labeling them!)anyway,I just wanted to say that we as hobbyists need to stop looking at genetics in oversimplified two dimensional terms & need to start to think in realistic three dimentional ones...everything can be proven,or,disproven to fit conventional terms,but,very few things are proven in one single generation,or,breeding trial...."R"

That is a great answer for me. It may sound simple, but I accept being told to just continue breedings. I am fine with that. I just wanted to know how to go about nameing them or classing them "if" they prove to show genetic traits down the line? Being new to all this presents alot of problems in these areas where you all have been for some time now. I just need to understand the process. I do believe I have something unique...."what" is the big question. Thanks Rainshadow for your comment. Andy Federico

I think the big problem here is a general confusion/misunderstanding of what most breeders are saying. I don't know about others, but how I feel about this whole situation is that people seem to jump the gun.

I personally think that naming your Hypos their own line was a bit premature. I actually didn't even realize that the name "Incredibles" was what you were naming your line. I just thought you were describing your Hypos as incredible Hypos. Then I started thinking about The Incredibles movie and associating them with that LOL. Anyways, the reason I thought that what you did was a little premature was because I did not see how your Hypos were different than any of the other Hypos being produced. No offense because your Hypos are definitely some gorgeous looking boas. However, they came from other established Hypo/Salmon lines and were compatible with those lines. Now, if you had, say worked with these animals for several years, striving and ACCOMPLISHING to make them look distinctly different from the majority of Hypos/Salmons being produced by the general public, then I think you would have a good case for calling them your own line.

This is a problem of time. It seems nowadays that people try to take or find short cuts in order to outrace something that can only be accomplished by time and hard work. None of the "big breeders" got where they were overnight. It took them years of hard work, producing and selling quality animals and building a good reputation, to get where they are today.

What does this mean for the "little guys"? This means that you need to do your work before you can get where you want to go.

Do some Jungles or Harlequins slip under the radar and get sold as normals? YES! Abosolutely!

Can someone purchase one of these "normals" and prove it out to be otherwise? YES!!! Absolutely!!!

However, the KEY word here is "PROVE". You can not (well you can but it probably would not be well received by the general public) just take a normal and try to call it a Jungle or a Harlequin and ask for the prices that Jungles or Harlequins are fetching without being able to back it up.

It IS about the “name brands” but not necessarily about BUYING the name brands. You can certainly luck out and pick up a normal that turns out to be a Jungle. However, how do you know this normal is a Jungle? The only way you can know is if you devote the time and effort it would take to prove this animal out beyond a shadow of a doubt. Let’s say you picked up a normal female from me that we sold for $85.00 that was a really pretty boa. You breed it to a normal male or even a Hypo male or Albino male, etc. Well, she has babies and lo and behold, approximately half of those babies have the classic traits of a Jungle Boa – the aberrancies, the boldness, the coloration, etc.

Hmmmmmm…………….what do you do?

Well, if I were in this situation, there would be several things I would do. I would raise-up one of these babies and breed it to an unrelated normal to see if I could reproduce these aberrancies. I would get a male Jungle Boa from the proven Swedish line (if I was financially able to) and breed him to my original female to see if I could produce any Super Jungles from this breeding. If I couldn’t afford to get a buy a male Jungle Boa I would either possibly try and do a breeding loan with someone who had a male Jungle or raise up one of the aberrant male babies I produced and breed him back to the female. I would ALSO take the male from the original breeding and pair him up with a DIFFERENT female that was completely unrelated to see what I produced from that in order to rule out the aberrancies coming from the male.

Depending on the results of all these trials, you would be able to say a few different things…

1.) These aberrant babies are not genetic – I just got some crazy looking babies by luck.

2.) I lucked out and purchased a Jungle Boa for $85.00 and these are in fact genetically inheritable and compatible with the genetic Swedish line of Jungle Boas and I have proven this to be true

3.) I have proved out a NEW line of genetically inheritable aberrant boas and I have done the work to show that they are NOT compatible with the Swedish line of Jungle Boas and therefore I will be naming them my own line!

Now there could be other possibilities too because you never know what is going to happen.

I don’t think the issue here is whether the snake in question is a “counterfeit” or a “name brand”, but rather, people wanting to pass off a similar looking animal as the “name brand” without showing that it IS the “name brand”. You can’t take a knock off pair of shoes and prove that they are Nike shoes. HOWEVER, you CAN take a boa that looks like a Jungle and prove it out to be either a Jungle from the genetic Swedish line or an aberrant boa from another line or a “look-a-like” that is not genetic.

You also mention ”It only gets worse when someone buys one male Jungle or Harlequin to breed to 3 or 4 of these cheap imitation females to then sell them as the real deals...then what?” However, I don’t agree with this statement because if you breed a Jungle to a normal female or a “cheap imitation female” you WILL be producing Jungles. So you can rightfully market and sell the babies you produce from this breeding as Jungles.

If you’re not sure if you have your own distinct line or not or if you aren’t even sure of what you have, why bother selling the offspring as “possibles”? And “possibles” for what? Why wouldn’t you keep those “possible” babies and prove them out to be a definite and THEN ask the prices you want for them…?

Also, if you spend 5 or more years proving out your animals to be compatible with the Swedish line of Jungle Boas – are you going to be selling them off cheap? Probably NOT – especially after all the time and work you put into them! You would most likely ask the SAME prices as current market value is at that time.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that bottom line is there are no short cuts.

I don’t know…that was a lot of rambling LOL…

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com

Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

That was a very good post Celia. It helped me very much, and I honestly thank you. That is the kind of information I wish I got from the very beginning. I had produced 3 litters useing the same hypo male, and I have also seen very many other litters of hypos produced...I could not explain why the 2nd litter I had was so different. The female was the only different factor.
Well, I have a lot of future breedings to go, and I hope I have not made any enemies by asking all these questions, or stating my opinions. Hopefully, I am on the right track now. I thank all of you who frequent this board for your help and support. I hope to meet you all in Daytona, but if not this year for sure next year. Good luck on all your breedings! Andy Federico

I know these topics can spark quite a bit of debate and I think that debate is good because it gets ideas, opinions, and information flowing. So long as the debate does not break down and into insults/name-calling/etc. which doesn't seem to happen in this forum as much as it does in some others...

Anyways, we're going to be in Daytona so we look forward to meeting you in person there! I'm counting the days...!!!

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com

Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

more about color and washout than it is pattern. Didnt intend to spark a jungle debate!

i have a bunch of "not to aberrant" jungles. although i do want to show them off i dont want to spend the rest of the day explaining why they are jungles.

people will ask questions, and thats good for the hobby...but the whole jungle issue is a little redundant.

BEAUTIFULL SNAKE!!! MAN...I LOVE THE JUNGLES. i have more of them in my collection then any other morph...and i cant get enough . but thats an AMAZING example brother...if he'll breed for you next season then stock up on cigars for next summer

take care,
Nick

I got to see a jungle sunglow recently and it just blew me away, I gotta make or buy one of them, someday!

Its good to hear from a jungle veteran such as yourself complimenting my jungle, much appreciated!

I have this one salmon jungle male from one of our salmon jungle litters this year, that shows no jungle pattern whatsoever exept for some of the "floating bubbles" in his saddles near his tail.
But he does have the color.
Here he is pictured with 2 "normal" salmon siblings.
I KNOW what he is but I can't make someone who hasn't produced salmon jungles know.
He will grow old here & produce many beautiful babies before I would sell him as a "pos" salmon jungle.
If I were ever to sell one like him as a salmon jungle, I would guarantee his genetics & offer to replace the offending animal with one like this the SAME AGE, not a baby replacement.
By the way, I like your jungle & believe I have seen it in person before.

Thanks for the compliment. I got the jungle from P.Kahl. He may have had him in Daytona or something.

NP

No Post.

np

np

The main thing that I was getting at is that people say that a jungle is easy to distinguish from a normal, I still see that. I think color and pattern can be used to a certain extent when identifying jungles, but does not set a standard. Anyone can easily identify a Motley from a regular but I just don't understand seeing people on these forums stating that they can definitely tell a not-so-obvious jungle apart from a normal. WE HAVE ALL SEEN normals come in different colors, to say that there is no normal boas with the same color as jungles is unrealistic. I have seen Celia state that she may be selling some possible jungles and then states that jungles can be identified from normals. Doesn’t one comment contradict the other? We have also heard comments that the pattern is different, yet some jungles look just like aberrant boas.

No one did answer my question.
"A question to ask yourself; If I took the 4th female (or many of the other boas in that litter) in Jeff Risher’s (Hall Of Fame Reptiles) aberrant salmon litter and put it in a salmon jungle litter, would you be able to pick it out and say it’s not a jungle?"

I think because people got stuck and were unsure on what to answer. No one here can't say they have not seen jungles with almost identical patterns.

Anyways, I know that we will find more information as more generations are produced.

The purpose of my opinion was to state that there is no way to separate SOME jungles from normals as jungles and normals will produce unreal and different colors. Not all jungles are colored the same. There are 2 jungles on Peter site right now and both have different coloration. My comments were pretty much aimed at the people that believe that ALL jungles can definitely be identified from normals.

Okay...I went and looked at Jeff's Hypo Boas. They are all REALLY fine looking Hypos and I personally wouldn't mind picking up a few myself to add to our breeders - especially that first female.

As for female #4...looking at her, "Jungle" does not come to mind. It's hard to judge from a photo but I'm almost positive that in person, "Jungle" would be the farthest thing from my mind. She does not have any of the Jungle coloration that my Hypo Jungles have. She's aberrant but she does not have the extreme contrast you see in Jungles. If you are at Daytona this year, I welcome you to stop by our table and check out some of our Jungles and Hypo Jungles. I am sold out of Hypo Jungles but will probably have my holdback male with us just to display.

While I will be offering some "possible Jungle" Hypos for sale, I have not offered any regular "possible Jungles" for sale (yet). Jungles CAN be identified from normals but I do not believe I said that you can identify EVERY SINGLE Jungle from a normal in EVERY SINGLE litter...? I DID say that someone could luck out and purchase a "Jungle sibling"/normal from us for $85.00 and have it actually turn out to be a Jungle.

Thanks,
Celia

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Celia Chien

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com

Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

Maybe I jumped the gun a little bit in insinuating that you believe you are able to identify ALL jungles from normals. It just seems that many people give the impression that ALL jungles can definitely be identified from normals. While I think many can be identified, I don't believe all.... that is why we have possibles for sale.

I also wanted to find out if people thought we could have aberrant boas in a jungle litter that are not jungles, but no one really addressed that. What do you think?

I really do apologize if you feel as if I attacked you. I really do believe you offer animals of the highest caliber and practice exceptional business. I also find myself agreeing with much of your opinion you post on the forum (especially your opinion on people wanting to label an animal as a new/their line when there is no testing or no significant difference from the animals widely available or common in people’s collections).

I firmly believe that unless there is a SIGNIFICANT change in color or pattern AND testing has been done to prove it was not just a fluke, don’t try and label an animal as your/new line.

Anyways back to the jungles. What do you think about what I said?

No need to apologize. I just felt like I had to clarify a few things. I know this whole discussion has been both helpful and somewhat confusing all at the same time.

The reason we have not offered any "possible" Jungles for sale this year is because of the Jungles from the two litters we've had, we felt that all the Jungles were fairly apparent and honestly, there were no babies that we felt really questionable on. When the babies were first born, there might have been one or two but once they gained some size, we ruled against them being Jungles. However, I'm almost positive that the more Jungle babies we produce, the more we will see this dilemma surface.

Anyways, as for your question, I think it can be possible to produce aberrant babies from a Jungle litter that are actually not Jungles but just aberrant normals. However, would the aberrancies in the non-jungle babies be distinctly different looking than the aberrancies in the Jungles? I have seen several people advertise aberrant boas in the classifieds that had distinctly different looking aberrancies than what is common in Jungle Boa aberrancies.

I saw a little bit of this in my possible Hypo Jungles. There's one male we have that has a couple of connected saddles. However, these saddles are connected in such a way that I don't think it is a Jungle aberrancy but rather just a common form of aberrancy you see in many Hypo/Salmon Boas.

The reason I think this particular male is a "possible" is his coloration. All of my questionable Hypos from my Hypo x Jungle litter have the extreme contrast between the dorsal coloration and the side coloration. Some have it in a much higher degree than others so I am not sure what to think.

I will try and take some photos of the aberrancy on the possible Male that I am referring to in comparison to a connected saddle aberrancie on a true Jungle so maybe what I am trying to describe is a little clearer...

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com

Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com