Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My wife and I just went to Tuttle Creek Lake in Kansas. We were working a road cut when we were stopped by a game and parks officers. I hadn't realized that we needed a hunting permit to look for herps, we don't have anything like that where we are from, so I will admit that I erred on that one. However even had I know about the law, I wouldn't have thought that we were breaking it, because we weren't planning on taking anything. We're pretty big conservationists and would never even think about keeping WC (just our preference), we only wanted to get some pictures of the collared lizards in that area. We even told him as much, but obviously he didn't believe us. After searching our car, and not finding nothing, he actually commented on the fact that we didn't have any containers to collect anything. He seemed surprised and maybe a bit dissapointed about this, but I did tell him before he searched that that wasn't our plan. At this point he started to look angry and ranted on about how it was illegal to even touch a reptile with a permit. He explained that according to Kansas law , the word "take" meant: to harass, possess. chase/pursue, or to actually collect (but he did say that he THOUGHT that it said this). Therefore it was illegal to take pictures of herps and everything else that is in the hunting guide. The only animals that are allowed to be taken without permit are gophers, moles, and invertabrates. I wish I would have thought of this at the time but I was too busy trying to comfort my wife because the prick made her cry during his lecture, according to his logic bird watching woudl be illeagal too. But we all know this isn't the case.
Fortunatly he just gave us a written warning for each of us and told us that if we planned on looking for reptiles in Kansas, then we had to get permits. He did however take his sweet time writting out those warnings, and he didn't even tell us that that was what they were until the end (after he had already written and signed them).
After he left, we went back to the office and the elderly woman there was shocked at what had happened. She said that she had never heard of that before, and if it was the officer that she thought it was, then "he just felt that he needed to show us how macho he was." I did find that a permit is needed to collect reptiles, but it didn't say anything about photographing them and that the permit is $71 a piece! I will be writting the Kansas game and parks about this, but I wanted to see what other people thought I should do. Was he justified? Was I in the wrong on this one? I do understand that he had probable cause to search our car, I'm not going to fault him on that, but after I told him that I wasn't collecting and after that was proven by him not finding any collection containers, I would of thought that enough was enough and that he didn't have to be so rude and belittling. Like I said the prick made my wife cry. Just let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Trevor

If I didn't get it, please forgive me......if you are a Kansas resident you are allowed to find and keep up to 5 animals of any species not on a list of protection. You WILL need a valid in state hunting license of general. I forgot the cost but it is below $25. It DOES NOT provide you with any commercial activity. If you are from out of state, the same applies but with the $75 ( I thought the cost was ) cost and with NO commercial attachment. Now if you were stopped at a wildlife area, a " State Natural " area, a state park, yes you could be in violation. But doing what they DID was in my opinion an over zealous situation and un-called for but look at our problems of past on this same scenario for years in west Texas. Remember that it is up to the individual of the agency to determine, construe, decide, reasonable suspicion, potential wrong doing to what they may do to you in this type of case. Now the collecting of reptiles for commercial value in Kansas is allowed but with special permits. there is NO law governing just the looking for reptiles in Kansas as long as you are not in violation of the above as long as you are on public property or with permission on private property.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

My hypothetical scenario ( even though I had a scientific permit for 2001, 2002, and 2003 ): I want to collect up to 5 individuals of species of reptiles for but not necessary > exhibit purposes, maintain in captivity, keep, breed with no commercial purposes, photograph in field, search for, etc.

Reply from Chris Mammoliti, Chief of operations office of Pratt, Kansas of the Department Of Wildlife & Parks State of Kansas :

" We have received your application for permit and based on the information in your application, we have determined that a Scientific permit is not required for stated activity. As per K.A.R 115-20-2. with a valid hunting license you are allowed to posses a maximum of 5 individuals of any non-protected species not on a protected or SINC list ".

Anybody that has been unduly harassed by game or wildlife officer needs to call Pratt, Kansas and get this information to show and or report a problem due to any harassment. Office number of Operations : 620/672-5911.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Dont stand for that BS, document what happened, relay the officer's badge # and name to the supervisor for the area and DEMAND A FORMAL APOLOGY! As these parks are funded by OUR tax dollars they have NO RIGHT to use intimidation practices, if you were completely legal than you have nothing to worry about by following up on this, to just walk away would be letting the officer get away with it and result in more nightmares for others. I personally would have set him straight about making my wife cry, NO ONE MAKES MY WIFE CRY through intimidation or threats, he may have slapped the bracelets on me for telling him to buzz off but I would NEVER stand there and let some LE type reduce my wife to tears. I do not tolerate fools or bullies, as a biologist Ive had to set one or two rangers on the correct path (I let them think they got someone then I whip out my credentials and SCP's and school them about environmental law, my field, and the fact that I am now going to report them and their behavior to their boss) They usually adopt a much more approachable attitude following my "class".
Remember this is America not Nazi Germany, do not break the law but do not allow the law to break you!
Cheers
B