Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Recently looked through a reptile care magazine published in Great Britain I believe. There were ads from breeders in Europe as well.

The thing that jumped out at me, besides the amazing reptiles and morphs they are breeding up there, is the caging seen in many ads and reptile rooms. Specifically, no racks, but rather roomy caging with hides and such. I'm talking for snakes as well as lizards. Even gartersnakes.

Does anyone know if rack systems are more of a U.S. thing?
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Mark G

"Sweaterboxes are boring"

Hi Mark,

I exchange e-mails with several keepers in Europe and have numerous articles translated from the European hobbyist literature. We have some trouble conversing but ultimately the point gets across.

In a nutshell, they tend to use very large, planted vivaria for just about everything. Racks are for hatchlings, but many raise their babies in planted tanks as well.

I'm referring to mainland Europle. In England and Scotland they follow the more American style of keeping - sterile racks.

A couple of further points.

In many translated books/articles you will read about minimum cage sizes that are absolutely huge. For example, the Gonysoma I keep have a recommended cage size of 5'x5'x5' in German articles. A 10% increase from there is required for any additional specimen kept in the cage.

But in reality the cages used are not nearly that large. In Germany and other parts of Europe there are humane requirements for such cages and the authors simply regurgitate these recommendations. Don't get me wrong, they still use HUGE cages, but a pair of Gonyosoma (ratsnake) do not get a walk-in room. Probably more like 48"x30"x36".

Another interesting point is how some of them interpret behaviors in such large cages. In the US we often remark that small cages are better because in large cages the snakes seem nervous and don't feed as well. But in continental Europe they interpret this as more natural behavior and indicative of a snake that is being kept properly.

Very interesting paradigm.

It's important to point out that the Europeans pretty much have us whooped when it comes to breeding difficult species and the number of generations produced by moderately difficult species. That should not be lost on use Americans.

My only other point is ventilation. If you read the Chondro forums here or on other sites there is a huge emphasis on minimal ventilation to keep humidity high.

The Europeans I talk with find this philosophy totally laughable. Their idea is that ventilation is a good thing. If maintaining heat is more difficult then heat the room - it's cheaper anyways. If maintaining humidity is more difficult then mist them more often. In other words, don't compromise the ideal environement for the snake out of laziness.

That is similar to their ideas about large cages. Don't keep snakes in small cages so you can keep more snakes, keep snakes in large cages so you can keep fewer snakes better.

As you probably know, I'm taking steps towards a more European/Philipe de Vosjoli style of keeping my Gonysoma.

Hope you get a lot of responses.

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Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

2.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

4.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

Mark and Chris,

I have a friend in his late 70's and Austrian. He's been a past president of the N.Y. Herp society and all of his cages for years have been natural.Painted 3D type backgrounds,(He's also an artist!) Waterfalls etc. He even has cages that work using his house windows, with lizards basking even in the winter because of thermostaticly contolled outside hinges that open and close. He has had lizards that have lived in excess of 30 years!

I think there is a lot of good to be said about both styles as well as some negatives.

I think in general though that the fewer kept better is a good goal. It's VERY easy for us to fall into the trap of "aquiring" more than we need, myself included.

Here in the US, it is often the philosophy to keep as many snakes as possible in as small a space as possible.

I sure hope the newbies in this hobby aren't tainted by this. I would hope folks use some imagination and try things. I bet in time egg-binding would be very uncommon, zonata disease a thing of the past, etc if we learn how to keep each species rather than putting them in a polypropylene box under the same conditions as 5 other species in a rack.

Mark
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Mark G

"Sweaterboxes are boring"

Thanks for the great info Chris.

Judging by what was on their pricelists, I gathered that these folks are doing something better... what is a real accomplishment in the US is done with apparent ease in Europe.

I too noticed alot of ventilation, room for the animal, and in many pics overhead heat in their cages. Quite the opposite of many rack setups for adult snakes here in the US. Interesting.
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Mark G

"Sweaterboxes are boring"

>>Judging by what was on their pricelists, I gathered that these folks are doing something better... what is a real accomplishment in the US is done with apparent ease in Europe.

I agree. CB Gonyosoma, for example, are not that hard to find in mainland Europe.

Some of my contacts comment that attending the Hamm show in Germany is a real treat. You will see stuff CB that you've only read about. One example would be two or three species of small Agamid lizards that have never been bred in the US. I wish I could remember the species names as they are just incredible. I have seen two of the species at US Zoos and they just made your knees shake. No doubt they would be extremely popular in US collections.

I once googled the latin names and all of the hits were either academic papers or European hobbyist sites.
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Current snakes:

1.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

2.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

4.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

I'm on the fence with sweater boxes and sterile cages personally. I certainly think there is a place for them and I am not condemning anyone for using them. It does give me pause sometimes when I see us holding large animals permanently in small boxes, sometimes it reminds me of how poor food animals are kept(I'm not a veg!). I sometimes think it gives fuel to the PETA crowd needlessly.

On the other hand it's obviously hard to monitor the health of your 3" lizard in a cage 12'x12 x 12 or providing a beautiful habitat for a snake that is going to hide all the time and would rather press itself in a small spot just larger than itself a majority of the time when not looking for food or some other life function.

Either way, wanting the best for your charges is a good goal. Stay well

The Hamm show has many thing you would like to bring home. But too many people at the show.
Also most of the interesting things are bought before the show, the rest of the interesting things are just the "normal" stuff, to put it a bit hard.

But Yes, most people in Europe only have cages for the adult snakes, and most young also. It´s just only begun with the racks.
I like both. cages for adult and rack for babies, and yearlings.
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Regards
Brian
Denmark - Europe

Chris really makes some good points based on his observations. I too have conversed with some European keepers and have many websites bookmarked dealing with vivarium design. The long and short of it is that the Euros are more concerned about creating as natural of an environment as possible. I also get the impression that many European keepers tend to keep less species because of the size of their homes. Smaller room sizes dictate fewer animals if you're going to house them in naturalistic vivaria - therefore they tend to put more into their vivarium designs than we do. Unfortunately, I think there's also a consumer culture in herp circles here in the states. I think a lot of people are more interested in simply getting stuff and trying to breed it or simply having a postage stamp collection [little bit of everything]. I think that mentality in a lot of keepers leads to the idea that if you've got the money you can always get something else and just build or buy another rack. Finally, if you're interested in vivarium design, Phillipe De Vosjoli's new book 'The Art of Keeping Snakes' has some fantastic ideas on naturalistic vivarium design.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

>>Unfortunately, I think there's also a consumer culture in herp circles here in the states.

I think that's true, but I don't believe that motivates the attitudes towards keeping. I have numerous times read posts where relative beginners were ridiculed for wanting to keep whatever species in a natural display instead of a sterile setup - even when only one snake was being kept.

>>I think that's true, but I don't believe that motivates the attitudes towards keeping.

I think what I was trying to get at was that many people get into snakes and because of the immense variety available on pricelists, many of those herpers slowly get carried away. I think the consumer culture I was mentioning is almost like a collector mentality - 'I have to get one of these, one of those, some of those...' etc. When you start acquiring a larger collection you're faced with how to house all of those animals and the easiest method is rack systems with sterile setups. I think the other thing at work here in the states is an almost complete lack of promotion of the concepts and benefits of naturalistic vivarium design. I also think a lot of keepers simply don't care about the vivarium concept. After all you can make the argument that if a snake eats and breeds in a sterile rack, why go to all the trouble to set up a vivarium? In those cases the keeper is interested in the snake itself but not necessarily the 'whole' snake as it were - ie. the snake as a living animal that interacts with it's environment [other than thermoregulation], and can be enriched [there's that zoo concept] by a more naturalistic environment. One of the great things about making vivaria is that you can change and modify them over time. As you add or take away branches, move hides, the snake is behaviorally enriched and is able in a limited way to experience the novelty of changing environments as it would in the wild. Anyway, I think the gist of what I was getting at originally is that most keepers don't have exposure to the concepts of vivarium construction and as a result tend to go for the easiest route - racks and/or sterile setups. The only way to change this is through promoting naturalistic design and it's benefits, but how to do that is the real question.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

Matt,

While I agree with most of what you say, I sometimes think it's important to play devils advocate.

I think one of the benefits of the naturalistic environments is that it keeps the keeper interested in his charges and adds another "dimension" to a hobby that can be a bit boring without looking to aquire other animals to "toy" with, to keep things challenging.

Some other questions I am mulling over are:

I am around Horses, cats and dogs regularly and we do not attempt generally to reinstate their wild background and they are largely fine being kept that way.

When we put an animal in a very large cage we tend to see them act differently. (I am in favor of larger cages) Normally docile animals strike, smash into the glass, rattle tails and freak out at times when keepers come close( and they will ALL the time because you live there). Some settle some don't. Is this "stress" good or bad? We made the decision a long time ago that these are captive animals, there is no returning to the "wild".

Are they really "happy" with plants and the like? especially captive bred that have never hidden in the bushes? Putting Fido out in the outback?

I am not suggesting that naturalistic caging is bad,it's probably alot better. we should make our captives as comfortable as possible but when I see my friends animals in beautiful cages with waterfalls and painted background, wonderful lighting etc., when it's all said and done it's still a cage and they can't move past that pane of glass. A cell is still a cell even if you paint a jungle mural on the wall and pipe in a nature sounds tape. Are naturalistic cages good for our animals or also a salve for our consceinses? Just some questions I'm asking myself.

>>A cell is still a cell even if you paint a jungle mural on the wall and pipe in a nature sounds tape. Are naturalistic cages good for our animals or also a salve for our consceinses? Just some questions I'm asking myself.

I completely agree. No cage is going to recreate a wild animal's environment, no matter how detailed or how large unless you can make a cage acres in size, in which case we're not really talking about a 'cage' anymore, are we? I don't think the animal in the vivarium really cares if the plant is live or fake, or for that matter it could be a plant made from legos. Ultimately, creating a vivarium with live plants, waterfall, numerous hides, misting system, multiple levels, etc. is more about creating an aesthetically-pleasing environment that best duplicates a natural environment in the exceedinly unnatural captive environment. As a side note, snakes that have issues being a natural cage where they're striking for example, is something that can be corrected by designing the cage differently. As an example, someone may have a tree boa [Corallus hortulanus] for example - a notorious striker. Anyway, the tradition is to set in some branch or branches, throw in a couple plants, maybe a vine, etc. Most of these cages I've seen have a great open void between the perches and the front of the cage, thus giving the snake a great view of all the commotion outside of the cage. Of course you want to see that cool snake while it's perching there, but you're effectively stressing it out in an unfavorable manner with that wide-open space. Plants could be put in place in front of the perch which would help to shield the snake from movement outside of the cage. Sure, you're going to have more trouble seeing the snake, but then again it will probably be less apt to strike. Also, think about some of these species - these notorious strikers - many are in the wild [their natural environment] aggressive about defending themselves. I for one have never seen a wild S. American tree boa that didn't try to do a number on whichever wildlife show host was examining it.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

I recently downsized my collection of Kenyan sand boas to 2 pairs and in the process moved away from sweaterbox racks to the 24 x 12 x 12 cages made by herpcages.com. My snakes are a lot more active now than I ever remember them being even though the setups are basically the same (temps/substrate/amount of space/etc.) except they are in cages rather than a rack system.

Since KSB are fossorial, I never gave keeping them in sweaterboxes a second thought. Now, however, this increase in activity level has me wondering some things. Are they somehow stressed in this new setup (even though in most regards it is identical to the previous set up)? They have been in the new cages for several months so I would have expected them to settle down by now.

Were they always this active and I just missed it because they were in sweaterboxes? If that is the case, it is really too bad that I have missed so much.

Should they have more space to roam? I think most KSB keepers would say that 24 x 12 x 12 is plenty but perhaps they should have more.

And the biggest question I have been asking myself: Should I go to the trouble of creating a large, decorated environment for a fossorial snake that spends most if its time burried in the substrate. Anyone have any thoughts?

I feel myself being pulled towards the "do more with less" philosophy and am really glad to see more and more discussion on this topic. I am definately starting to agree with de Vosjoli that this is the next step in the evolution of herp keeping. Thanks for taking the time.

Rob

Rob,

I'm presently downsizing too and am wrestling with the very same issues. I have been using very large cages for a while now and yet I also see that There is something to be said for the sterile ultra clean conditions possible with appropriate sized boxes/cages.

I had a Galliwasp several years ago in a very nice planted terrarium. To this day I could not tell you anything about him. The crickets and food animals dissappeared and I occasionally saw him flit by in a panic but.....

The "third wave " husbandry/practices have been around a long time. I think we should probably be somewhat cautious and not throw out the baby with the bath water. I certainly think we should be careful not to squish our animals into unreasonable cages but as North American Hobbyists we've made some dents in the hobby too. You could also dig a pit in your backyard and do a great job breeding like some of the pros, but for many of us, whats the point?... No sense in reinventing the wheel maybe we should glean the good things and improve..

Good luck.I'd be interested in hearing how you make out.

There has been a very knowledgable guy posting on the kingsnake forum and it's recently come up that some one has done field observations over a long period of time and found that a hatchling (maybe Pyromela?) spent most of it's life not 20' from where it was hatched. another hobbyist lost a Rubber boa for an extended period of time just to find it one day within inches of where it had been caged. I think to be fair to ourselves we have to look at the whole picture. Just food for thought....

Hi Bob,

I agree with what you are saying and don't think we should totally abandon all that has worked for us in the past. By most people's measure (will an animal breed for you) my KSB were completely "happy" in their sweaterboxes and I enjoyed them immensely. At that time, however, my focus was on breeding and that has changed for me. Along with my change in focus came a desire to actually see my animals without disturbing them by pulling out a drawer. What I found (ie: my snakes spend an awful lot of time on the surface for a fossorial snake) is what led me to the questions in my previous post. I certainly don't have the answers nor do I condemn the sweaterbox approach to keeping and/or breeding snakes. As I said, my focus in the hobby has simply changed from keeping animals for breeding purposes to keeping animals simply for the enjoyment of keeping animals. It's not that I would go totally nuts and keep a 2' sand boa in a 4' x 2' cage. I have just been wondering if perhaps a 36" x 12" x12" cage with a little furniture might be a little better for the snake. Just some food for thought. It generally takes a lot to get me out of my lurking cave (I actually come here to read daily) but this is a topic I have been giving a lot of thought to lately. Take care.

Rob

Rob,

I feel pretty much the same. At times I wonder if we lose something by having 60 Cal. kings 40 Easterns 20 milks 40 Amelanistic,triple het/ motley/vanishing/snowy hypo...

Does the hobbyist/breeder really "know" his animals as well as the person who has a handful of a subspecies but is interacting with them regularly as opposed to the person who is scattered in too many directions and constantly cleaning cages and never really spending any length of time with a particular animal? I am sure there are advatages to being able to work with the many but is there a down side?

I don't have any answers. Just food for thought.

Mountain kings and rubber boas are known for occupying microhabitats where movement only happens when they need to, like to search for more food or mates or to adjust temperature or moisture.

But it remains that 20ft of rock habitat is a far cry from a shoebox held at 82 degrees. And to prove it, leave any snake cage open and see if your snakes are there 12 hours later. Snakes move, even if just a few feet.

>>There has been a very knowledgable guy posting on the kingsnake forum and it's recently come up that some one has done field observations over a long period of time and found that a hatchling (maybe Pyromela?) spent most of it's life not 20' from where it was hatched. another hobbyist lost a Rubber boa for an extended period of time just to find it one day within inches of where it had been caged. I think to be fair to ourselves we have to look at the whole picture. Just food for thought....

Hi Rob
More food for thought.. draw your own conclusions...

I did an experiment with 2 rosy boas kept in huge cages with lots of hides, decor and such. Rosies are probably alot like Kenyans in their methods I would guess, so maybe this applies to Kenyans too? Anyway, here is what happened.

I found that the rosies didn't move around all that much, and they definitely preferred to stay near their basking area most of the time. The decor served virtually no purpose. Conclusion: rosies don't need a large cage.

Now comes the interesting part... because I used a ceramic heat emitter to provide for a basking spot, the snakes had to bask at the mouth of their hides. What I began to see was true thermoregulation where the snakes would bask a little, retreat for awhile, come out later and bask awhile, etc. It isn't that they needed a huge cage at all, they just needed a temp gradient and a cage where they could CHOOSE THEIR TEMPS. If I could provide that in a smaller cage, I theoretically should get the same effect.

(The snakes also seemed to do well with the added ventilation.)
Ventilation is important for all snakes. Many racks simply do not provide much of any. Better to have a ventilated cage and let the snake cram itself into a tight hide or into a humid hide then a cage that is a constant hide. I think of some racks as constant hides. The snakes never get to venture out. That has gotta suck.

Now my rosies are in smaller cages but with the same features as the larger cage described above. The cages have substrate, a few rocks and some folded newspaper for them to hide under. That is it. Very simple. The rocks heat up under the heat emitter, and the snakes but-up against them or sit under the newspaper under the heater. The snakes move around to adjust temp. They feed like monsters.

I have the same setup for some Childrens pythons.

This isn't to say bottom heat is bad or wrong. It simply isn't the only way to do things, but it is still a good way. In nature you have both. The earth radiates heat for awhile when the sun goes down. That is like bottom heat. But it isn't 90 degree Flexwatt surrounded by cold cage floor. THAT is my problem with undercage heating.

I think sweaterboxes are fine if one could provide adequate ventilation and a true temperature gradient. Many racks don't, and that is my beef with them. Not so much for sandboas and rosies, but much worse for more active, agile snakes that move around more (even if they are content to sit still alot of the time.)

You do not need a pretty vivarium, but you do need ventilation, some room, a temp gradient and hide spots. I think your 12x24 hercages.com cages can provide for that. I have some of those too. For the ones that do not have a screen top, drill extra holes for ventilation (use a Unibit.. cuts plastic like butter with no cracking or burrs.)

Good luck. Let us know how your Kenyans do.

I was thinking of doing something similar, thanks for the results. Definitely an issue worth tossing around. Yeah, I love that UNIBIT, makes perfect smooth holes!

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the great info. The biggest difference that I can see between rosies and KSB is the burrowing habits of KSB. Of course I have not kept rosies so I could be totally off base on that but I have never used hides for my KSB because the substrate itself is a hide. In addition, I have always used bottom heat because the snakes spend so much time under the substrate. Your post has got me rethinking that, however, and perhaps overhead heat would encourage more natural behaviors even in a burrowing snake.

At any rate, the move from racks to cages has been fun to experiment with and I am not sure that I would ever go back to racks (except possibly for hatchlings if I ever take up breeding again). I think the use of cages, if nothing else, allows for more experimentation in husbandry methods (overhead vs. subsurface heat for example) and better observation of the results since the animals can be seen without disturbing them. I am sure that I will try some overhead heating for my KSB just to see what happens.

Thanks everyone to the input and thanks to Mark for starting such a great thread, I have really enjoyed the discussion. I will keep you posted on my progress.

Rob

You're right Rob, and I neglected to think of that. Kenyans will hide in the substrate, where rosies make use of burrows, rocks and ground cover to retreat. So I guess their methods are a bit different.

Anyway, it will still be interesting to see how a Kenyan does with overhead heat. You may find that it isn't worth it, or you may find that they thrive. I'd be interested to find out any results if you choose to try it.

Another interesting part of this is to use one of those temp guns and record the temps of your snakes at various times while providing a range of temps. I just started doing that. I hope to see what temps the snake chooses at various times of the day and year when given choices.

Good luck.

>>Hi Mark,
>>
>>Thanks for the great info. The biggest difference that I can see between rosies and KSB is the burrowing habits of KSB. Of course I have not kept rosies so I could be totally off base on that but I have never used hides for my KSB because the substrate itself is a hide. In addition, I have always used bottom heat because the snakes spend so much time under the substrate. Your post has got me rethinking that, however, and perhaps overhead heat would encourage more natural behaviors even in a burrowing snake.
>>
>>At any rate, the move from racks to cages has been fun to experiment with and I am not sure that I would ever go back to racks (except possibly for hatchlings if I ever take up breeding again). I think the use of cages, if nothing else, allows for more experimentation in husbandry methods (overhead vs. subsurface heat for example) and better observation of the results since the animals can be seen without disturbing them. I am sure that I will try some overhead heating for my KSB just to see what happens.
>>
>>Thanks everyone to the input and thanks to Mark for starting such a great thread, I have really enjoyed the discussion. I will keep you posted on my progress.
>>
>>Rob
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Mark G

"Sweaterboxes are boring"

In theory, (I'm only guessing here) wouldn't overhead heating be ideal for Kenyan Sand Boas since don't burrowing snakes instinctively dig deeper to cool off? It may also lure them to the surface to bask some.
Anyways guys, I've really loved reading this thread. Nice to see a discussion like this.
As a semi-novice I have a "fence sitter" cage myself. 12 sq feet, plants in pots, overhead heating, plastic caves, basking rocks (with a big rock for feeding), normal waterdish and coconut fiber for fake dirt. It's not exactly a slice of the wild, or technically naturalistic, but it's pretty, easy to maintain thus far, and Sophia seems to enjoy it.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Rob,

The zoo I work at has 5 KSBs - all [except the 2 on exhibit] are kept in Neodesha cages of roughly the same size you're talking about. Each cage has a 2 inch deep layer of builder sand along with a couple hides and a water bowl. I find the boas in a different place every morning. Being nocturnal I don't see much activity from them during the day, but there's always evidence in the sand of their movements from the night before. I've noticed similar behavioral changes like you've observed in snakes in my own collection when moved from a small sterile set-up to a more natural cage. It's just one of the rewards of naturalistic design - getting to see a larger behavioral repretoire
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)