Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read all of the posts and I try to take it all in. What I keep hearing, or at least I think I am, is pretty hard to follow. Example being that Jungles came from ONE pairing originally (in Sweeden) and any Jungle must be able to be traced back to that breeding or offspring. This is to say that in the entire world the results could not have come from anyone else except this pairing or they are fake, not Jungles etc.

I find it hard to believe this is the result of some unique pairing that could never be reproduced again from others anywhere in the world.

If they (Sweeden) have the Magical pair.. what about the siblings of that magical pair, or generations prior to that pair.. am I to believe one magical pair happend to meet and in all the universe this is not able to happen again? The siblings to that magical pair that may still be roaming the woods are not able to produce Jungles. What if I take a trip and I find the siblings and bring them to the US and I HAVE JUNGLES... is there now a USA jungle line even though they maybe siblings from the start???? See the confusion.

Dont get me wrong.. I dont want to pay Jungle prices and get something that is not genetic. What is that worth.

However if something is proven genetic, how can I say for certain they are NOT jungles, or how can anyone else? Can you trace the animal back to birth and PROVE it was not a lost sibling to the JUNGLE SWEEDEN line that was captured weeks, months or years later and then sent to the US? If you think it is hard to tell exactly where Boas are captured and can not even really depend on the paperwork from the exporter, how can you tell me NO SIBLINGS have ever been caught later??

Even if the Sweeden group kept the entire first clutch.. what about the siblings of the parents, prior clutches, the grandparents, etc.

Everyone has their own opinion.. but for anyone to say they are certain.. proves they are not.

I know this is vague.. but I get more irritated each time the seperation gets deeper on this issue. Unless you can go back in time.. and show that you have captured the entire family of boas in the woods that ever came in contact with the Sweedish line.. I am not convinced they MUST come from that line. Again.. prove it is genetic... or prove you have the entire generations of boas including past siblings, clutches etc and I may understand.

This is not an attack or anything.. but simply me trying to understand what is going on. I have seen abberant boas have clutches with all normal appearing babies.. not genetic nor jungle or even close. But again is it fair or even possible to say that other abberant boas that have a clutch and it does prove genetic are 100% NOT JUNGLES?? I find it hard to belive that WHERE boas were found can not be positively 100% known from the exporters papers but everyone is sure that Jungles can only come from THIS certain pair.

Sorry for the rant.. been holding that in for a while.

I was not attacking or discounting anyones animals... I am just trying to understand what is going on and I often wonder how people can be so certain when it has been said before many times NO ONE is really even 100% sure where their animals came from other than NOT from the US.

Can you look at this boa below and please tell me where she/he came from? Is this a Jungle? Is it Not? Is it at all related to the Sweeden line? Maybe a grandchild of the orignal line.. maybe not? Maybe just a heat related pattern and not genetic at all? What if bred to a normal and half look like her or Junglish?? Then Jungle? What if bred to another that looks junglish and something resembling SUPER JUNGLES and Jungles come out.. then is it a Jungle??? So confusing.

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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

The Horse is alive & well,(and,has run,in wild-eyed terror,back to the stable,where it is now taking a quiet nap!*lol*)it has left you standing amid your own confusion,beating YOURSELF with that stick!...here's what you do...BREED that animal,IF you produce similar looking offspring,raise a pair & breed them to each other,IF they produce animals that look like the two ("supers" )Greg showed in his post,THEN you can pick your own brand new name for them!(or,call them Keller line killers,because it came from someone who has & is still working with them! give credit where it is due!He ultimately has the right to call them,(and,sell them)as he sees fit?)it would be different if you found it on the ground while on vacation in Colombia,(but,I STILL wouldn't call it a Jungle! *lol*)it is ridiculous to go through sooo much "what if" prior to even breeding that animal!(plus any naming rights should go to Larry shouldn't they???)I'm not trying to be mean Shawn,I just think,if you want a Jungle,buy one,don't bank on trying to convince anyone that you lucked up & found one in Daytona for under $200 bucks...not every aberrant,nicely colored boa is a "Jungle".put the stick down & BREED it!!!

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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

out, then you know it is from the same bloodline.

Yours does not resemble a jungle to me.

this seems so hard to understand or maybe it is because I am the only one who feels this way...

BUT I do NOT believe anybody said that "if your animal did NOT come from the Swedish line of Jungle Boas, there is no way whatsoever that it is a Jungle Boa". I know that I have personally said the EXACT opposite.

If you want a true, genetic Jungle Boa that has a Super form, your best bet is to purchase one of these animals from a reputable breeder working with the line. That is what we did.

But let's take your case for example. I do not know where your animal came from but let's say you picked him up from someone who had him as just an aberrant boa. There are questions about the history of Jungle Boas but what about the history of your animal? What was he produced from? What did his siblings look like? Was he an import? That's where I would start - finding out as much as I can about the history of my animal.

Take whatever information you can gather and keep it in mind and then START breeding your animal to try and PROVE him out. This is VERY simple. The Swedish line of Jungle Boas has a true SUPER form that will produce litters of ALL Jungles when bred to a normal. You can work with just your animals/"line" and try to prove him out but that will not tell you if you have a Jungle Boa or not.

Take your boa and breed him to an unrelated normal. If you produce a litter of half aberrant boas and half normal boas, that's a start. I would personally do this breeding more than once to rule out a fluke occurrence. If you breed him to three females and all three litters have the same result, then that's great. Take the babies from these breedings, raise them up and breed some to completely unrelated normals to see what you get. If you can reproduce the outcome, then you may be really onto something. ALSO take one of the babies and breed it back to the original animal. Do you produce some babies with even more extreme pattern aberrancies from this breeding? Take some of these extreme babies and breed them to unrelated normals - do you get whole litters displaying similarities to the original aberrant pattern?

If the answer is YES to the above, are you done?

NO! You may have just proven with your time and hard work that you have a genetic line of aberrant boas that even has a Super form! However, if your question is - Is my boa a Jungle Boa? – then you haven’t answered your question yet. While your animal’s history/lineage may not lead directly back to Lars Brandle this does not necessarily mean he is NOT a true Jungle Boa because who knows what happened to the original Jungle Boas' siblings or parents like you brought up. You might have one of their descendants.

Well...let's get to work then! What's the next step? Get a Jungle Boa from the Swedish line and start breeding. Your best bet would be to pick up a male and that way you could breed it to several of your females. Breed this male Jungle Boa to as many of your female aberrant boas as you can? What are the results? If what you have is in fact compatible with the Swedish line of Jungle Boas, you WILL PRODUCE SUPERS. If not, then you should produce normals, your aberrant line, and Jungles. If you DO produce a super from this breeding, take that animal and breed it to unrelated normals. Do you get litters of ALL Jungles from that breeding? If so, then CONGRATULATIONS! You have just proved out that your original aberrant boa is IN FACT compatible with the Swedish genetic line of Jungle Boas!

WOW - that took YEARS of hard work and several breeding trials with detailed data records of the results from those breedings! That's a LOT of work. We are talking about a minimum of 10 years of work or so.

This stuff is NOT easy to do. Like I've mentioned in past posts, there is NO short cut through time. When they first started working with the Jungle Boas, they thought it was a simple recessive morph. Only after years of hard work and breeding trials were they able to figure out the genetics behind the morph and we are STILL in the infancy of this great morph. Only this year have we really started to see people produce larger numbers of Jungles, Hypo/Salmon Jungles, Super Jungles, Sunglow Jungles, etc. I personally, am very excited about working with Jungles and think that they have a great deal of potential. That's why I initially invested in the project!

I don't think anyone is saying - "There is NO possible way you have a Jungle Boa UNLESS you get it from someone who works with the genetic line of Swedish Jungle Boas."

People have said - "IF you want a true Jungle Boa from the Swedish line that is genetic and will reproduce the aberrancies AND has a SUPER form, THEN your BEST bet is to spend the money and pick up one from a reputable breeder."

The problem here lies in people trying to call their animals Jungle Boas without being able to back up that statement. Then when others tell them, "No, that's not what you have" they don't understand how other breeders can tell them that because their animal "looks just like" the Jungles if not better!

All the above and all the recent posts I have made on this subject are my opinions on the matter. I know there are probably lots of people that are really sick and tired of seeing this topic. I half groan when I see it and before I read the questions, I say to myself – “Okay, I’m not going to respond because it’s just so tedious and these debates sometimes get so heated” – but almost every time after I read the posts, I feel that I can contribute and maybe help others understand a little better so I jump in LOL...

Okay...I'm jumping out now...

Thanks,
Celia

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Celia Chien

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com

Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

Has put a nail on the issue... Come on everyone, don't we have "Sharp" Albino, and "Kahl" Albino? Are they Albinos? I bet they're both are. Are they the same? I don't think so. So, unless your Jungle are truely from Sweden line with full document to back it up, or from reputate breeder, they are just "wannabe". You do need to put some sweats, and years of hard work before you start claiming. That's why the real one worth thousand of dollars. Just my thoughts

I only showed my animal as an example.. I am not saying it IS a jungle. However for those that think it dose NOT look like a jungle.. I can tell you Jeremy Stone held that exact animal as well as the siblings and he said it DOES VERY MUCH resemble a Jungle.. but that is here nor there. Just goes to show the confusion on what IS a Jungle. If you say they do not resemble a jungle, that is between you and JS as I am just trying to breed them and see what happens. I am not trying to stir the pot - but how can some say mine does NOT look like a Jungle when one of the BIG Jungle breeders holds them and says.. WOW.. wish I would have found them before you.. they look just like MY JUNGLES!

I am not wanting to name it either.. these are Larry Kellers animals, I did not produce them. Never stated I wanted to coin a name for them. In fact once I returned from Daytona 2 years ago I emailed LK to ask many questions concerning the parents, past offspring etc and told him what I wanted to try with the 2.2 I have. I also asked if he or anyone he knew who had past siblings of his ever bred them back together so I could see what they looked like. LK did say he has produced many clutches from the same parents and most if not all had a similar look to the ones I have.

Since Larry has produced more animals that resemble these from the same parents.. that should also help rule out a fluke one time thing, heat related etc.

I brought up the question because I have 2.2 that JS said IF on his table would have been sold as Jungles - so of course a light went off in my head to keep them for myself and see what happens when bred back together and to normals.

NOW if I breed 1.1 of the LK animals and I get what appears to be SUPERS then that will help.

Also if I breed one of my LK males to a noramal and get out about half that appear to be Jungles that will help.

The concern is if that does happen and it does appear to be genetic just like the jungles meaning JxN = half junglish or JxJ = Super then would they be considered Jungles or Larry Keller Jungles or what?? Of course a possible super would have to be bred back to a normal to verify. But this now takes me down to 2 breeding seasons vs about 10. Especially since LK has been breeding the parents for many years as well.

I agree a one time breeding does not a jungle make.. but at the same time if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. and continues to produce ducks.. is it not a Duck?

ALSO on a last note.. on my page I have had them listed since I bought them and they have always been listed under NORMAL BOAS. To see the rest you can click the link.

I need to get new pics too.. those are over 2 years old.
See the 2.2 LK animals here:

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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

This is a statement/question you just posed...

"The concern is if that does happen and it does appear to be genetic just like the jungles meaning JxN = half junglish or JxJ = Super then would they be considered Jungles or Larry Keller Jungles or what??"

I think this statement is premature when considered in the context of everything you said before it. Why would you call them anything BEFORE breeding them into the Swedish line of Jungles to see if they are compatible? If they are compatible, why would you not just call them "Jungle Boas"? IF they aren't compatible and you can show them to be their own line of genetic aberrant boas, then call them whatever you want whether that be "Larry Keller Jungles" or don't even use the word jungle and give them a totally unique name.

If you take what Jeremy told you to heart, and you think there is a good possibilty that they are really Jungle Boas, why would you not prove or disprove that beyond a shadow of a doubt before naming them? You've got to prove them out before you name them. That's one of the main reasons for all the confusion/conflict in the Ball Python market right now. Everyone thinks they have something special that they paid nothing for. Now this may very well be true - several of the new Ball Python morphs have proved it so. However, don't expect not to get any criticism about it because by making it public, you will get others' opinions about it.

I know you said you did not produce these boas nor are you trying to name them nor are you saying they ARE Jungles. I wish you the best of luck with those guys and no matter what they might be genetically, they look like a great group of boas!

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien

www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com

Celia Chien Photography

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

I only used my boas as an example because they were mine and I didnt want to talk about others animals that I dont know anything about.

Dont get me wrong.. I have high hopes for these. I have always planned on many breedings etc to see what I have.

I see what you mean now about breeding one to a true jungle for the Supers... to see if they are compatible. I was a tad confused at first because I was thinking it does not matter because ANYthing bred to a jungle will produce Jungles.. But we are looking for the Super form if they are compatible which will tell us Vs just half jungles. I understand now. On that same note I dont have a true jungle so I will have to do the breeding trials I posted,LK 1.1 and LK 1.1 then LK 1 to a non related female and see what happens.

I am not trying to predict what I will get or pre name them etc.. Since there was already a jugle thread started I figured I had a few questions or concerns so I would chime in as well. I just used mine as an example vs talking about others animals when I hopped on the subject of the Jungles. So the only reason I posted my animals was to have a picture to go along with the thread.. not predicting they are or are not.

I did say WHAT IF because that seemed to go along with the discussion below that originally started about the jungles. I was trying to figure out WHAT IF this happened what would they be called. I have raised these animals from 2 weeks old and have not brought this up before just to avoid arguments and peoples opinions. I just noticed that I could maybe learn something from the threads and had no other way to express my thought without using my animals as an example.

I do find it somewhat amusing, confusing and irritating at times that people seem to look to JS (and a few others) as a Boa GOD and what he says goes.. unless apparantly he is speaking of my animals. How can JS be an expert on Jungles but if he says mine look just like his others can disagree or say he is wrong.. ? Only time will tell.
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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

Last year,same animals,same scenarios,same questions...I told you pretty much the same thing....breed first,worry,theorize,hypothesize,afterword...regardless of the outcome you've got some great looking animals at a great price,& they should be appreciated for what they are,not what they aren't.

I have piggybacked on others asking so I could find out what to expect but I have never started a thread stating I had Jungles or even close. I have used the term Junglish in the past.. but again I never labled them that, tried to sell as that or anything closely related to that.

When others have similar situations as I have I chime in to ask the new question I have to clarify what my plans are.

Again I was wanting to find out the process to determine what I had and WHAT IF situations for a long term project. You are pretty sure I dont have jungles.. Who is to say the guy in Sweeden didnt purchase his animals from LK? This is just a statement not something I plan on tracing back.. or would even consider to be the case. Just that NO one knows where these animals came from to begin with... mabye LK got his from the same exporter Sweeden did.. any number of possibilities.

I am not attempting to start anything but merely asking questions. I can see no way for anyone to be certain they did or did not come from the same place, same exporter, same pond next to a nuclear plant, stream etc halfway around the world. I am just saying ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

Do I want Jungles .. YEA.. do I have them>?? Dunno.. I am and have always intened to do the breeding trials.. I am just trying to make sure that everyone - me mostly - knows what exactly those trials are and what I would need to have SOMETHING, anything.. Jungles, LK Jungles.. Boas... healthy nice boas.

I merely used mine as examples because there have already been breedings done in the past with their parents, and now I am trying to pick up where they may have left off. Of course when I am confused on the process I have no idea where to start.. which is where the WHAT IF comes in. Does this prove yes or no.. is there a better way.. a shorter way or what.
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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

I still have a pretty good memory do a Forum search,you even used the same duck analogy in the thread????? Bill bought some from the same batch,as did Gray,I've seen pictures of all of them.

It's funny to see someone say "they should be appreciated for what they are, not what they aren't." and only a few weeks back was getting upset because people were telling them that it appeared as if a new mutation did not appear to be the result of a specific line of boas they were working with. Funny how people will uphold what they work with but won't hesitate to insinuate what someone else has is not what they may believe.

Flat out saying "IT ISN'T",it isn't even something he produced under mysterious circumstances(or bred even once?). it is someone elses established line that he is basiclly asking public permission to label as something else.(or,that's what I get from this same repeated questions based on the same exact animals?)As for the reference to the patternless animals...the people talking the loudest about what they can't be,are also the ones that know the least about what they really are. our opinion has been as open minded as it can be,based on how they were produced...it's not like we jumped up in "all-caps" and,claimed they were supers? they're definately Harlequins though.Funny how you'd have anything to say about them either way?

If you are saying I am trying to label these animals as something they are not, and I did not produce them we have a communication problem.

Over and Over I said I was curious as to what it would take to prove or disprove something.. I never named them or took credit for them, and I also put they came from Larry Keller as well as emailed him to let him know what I was doing. This is far from what you suggest if you were talking about me. You seem to have answered another question there too so maybe you were not speaking of me at all.

I would agree with what you said had I posted either on KS or the classifieds.. SOUTHERNBOID JUNGLES FOR SALE.. when you see that you can call me on it. Until then I have what I said I have.. Boas from LK that I hope to use this year to see if they produce anything close to what is now being called Jungle.
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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

I'm saying go back & read your first post of the day...I don't see Larry's name mentioned there,do you? and,it was a brand new thread,not a response to the existing jungle related thread from yesterday.you're contradicting yourself,you keep repeating that you're just trying to understand & asking questions...these are the same questions you asked about the same animals a year ago & got pretty much the same information...Why is that? if anyone is in a position to produce a possible super form from this line,I'd think it would be Larry? why not ask him? he may not want to call them Southern Boid Jungles???

I emailed Larry YEARS AGO about this.. I have called him many times since.. more emails.. sent him more pictures, discussed the Jungles (FRIGGEN SWEEDEN LINE) and what JS told me.. what I thought about the potential of HIS boas and what he thougt, how may times has he bred the same line, what about the parents of them, grandparents, I also included him anytime anyone asked etc. I have NOT EVER CALLED THEM SOUTHENBOID ANYTHING or ttied to take credit for them.

I am getting a little miffed that you keep insisting I am trying to screw Larry or anyone out of anything since I have never posted these for sale nor tried to trade them or get rid of them in any manner whatsoever, not tried to take credit for them and name them.

I was asking WHAT COULD I PRODUCE - would it be this or that or a from of this or could it be something new? If you assumed by NEW I meant MY NEW or SOUTHERNBOIDS NEW.. that is on you because I have given this info to LK and it is no secret I bought them from HIM and they are HIS LINE. Other than emailing LK with the info and me posting I got them from him what else do you want me to do? Send them back to him? Lets get real here.

As for the Supers.. how would Larry be in any better position then me since I have 2.2 of the boas in question?? All 4 resemble a jungle as much as the next.

I specifically asked Larry if he ever bred siblings back and he said he sells them.. so NO. I maybe the first. He did not even say if he keeps any.. so how would he be any better off than me?

For GODS sake quit putting words in my mouth. This is why I have not brought it up before. WHO IN THE HELL SAID TO CALL THEMN SOUTHENBOIDS JUNGLES... I said I HAVE NEVER called them that or close... so why all this static about me not in the position to do this or name them when I have never planned on it. If they prove out to be ANYTHING I WILL CONTACT LARRY AGAIN AS I STATED AGAIN AND AGAIN...

I asked what the animals were in my first post to show the confusiong on JUNGLES if anyone said hey nice jungle....
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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

I don't see any difference in the answers you got today compared to the answers you got a year ago?

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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

Who cares if he ask 20 times. If you don't like it don't read it. Sounds like he may accomplish more in his 20 years in this hobby then you have in yours. Maybe he wanted to hear he same answers from different people. Get over it.

We "got over it" last year? I honestly don't think Shawn will be happy until someone,ANYONE replies & tells him what he wants to hear,that somehow he managed to get a bonafide jungle boa for around 200 bucks?(MHO)

if you have 2.2 pair of his siblings from his snakes call him and see if he wants to breed 1 of the females to his male and his female to one of your males then take the other 1.1 pair and breed them togeather. A lil team work between you 2 can cut a few years off this project. then you'll be just a few years from grand daughter and grandpa breedings ( man that sounds sick). also during that last breeding you can breed a super ( if there proveing out) to a normal to prove it even further. Its a though that i haven't seen on here. Good luck paul

I have a question for you. How are you so sure about these patternless boas you produced as being what you say them to be? You bred to an unrelated normal...right? Your Harlequin is said by you to not be co-dom? So how do you know the trait is not from the normal? Now, I have something else that I have been wondering about...

The Patternless is certainly showing up in alot of other boa breedings as well. Hogs, Motleys, Suris, Harleys, etc... Is it not possible that it is just a concentrated pattern reduction. I mean when you breed the aberant patterns you get reverse stripe tails in just about all boas...is it a fluke? I don't think so. I do not claim to know much on genetics, but when you see the litters where the stripes are moving to the top of the back of the animals and then you see the cean sides, what is so hard to understand when they pop out patternless?

How can you call it a super? I love the Harlequins and hopefully someday I will be able to afford one to have in my collection, but I really think the patternless boas that are being produced are nothing more than a fluke and I believe we will see alot more as breedings go on.

One more thing, If you watch Rich Ihle's DVD on boas he says himself that he has noticed diminishing patterns with every breeding ..F1,F2,F3,F4 etc... Well I would love to hear what others think about this. Thanks Andy

My input on this. I really think the patternless boas are a genetic trait that somehow popped out. Maybe simple recessive. I really think it's one of the best boas I have ever seen but I definitely do not think it was a fluke.

So just in theory let me know what breeding to patternless or one patternless to something else nets you? I never said I was right just asking questions to get more answers...I thought that was how this worked here...
When I say Fluke, I guess I should not have used that word...I do believe that if those boas were bred again, they indeed could produce the patternless again, but what do you get when you breed the patternless again? Andy

Good question Andy. At this point all our opinions are theories. I honestly think that this boa may turn out to be simple recessive. Why not? Could it be possible that both of the parents carried the gene for this boa? What I don't think is that the bloodline had anything to do with it. Honestly, if I had one in my collection, I would not care.

You honestly dont think the bloodline had anything to do with it?

What do you think the odds are, out of all the normals out there, that happen to throw patternless boas. 1 in 100? Nope .. 1 in 1000 nope... 1 in 10,000 nope.. get the point? Think lotto odds.

Are the odds of a bloodline known to throw a wide range of aberrancies producing a patternless boa better than a normal? Of course. To believe otherwise is frankly, stupid.

Speculations:

Is it from the harlequin bloodline alone? Maybe

Is it from the normal bloodline alone? Maybe, less likely.

Is it from both? Maybe

So your vote is that it came from the normal bloodline and had nothing to do with the harlequin bloodline? It can go any way, but to assume the least likely scenario is again, stupid.

I'm not sure how a thread about wannabe Jungles turns into a thread about me defending patternless boas??? however,neither Brendan,(who produced them.)nor I have made ANY CLAIM whatsoever about what these animals represent geneticlly!!! they are 50% Harlequin blood by simple logic.(the same exact logic used to produce all the other F1 Harlequin animals over the last eight years.)we do NOT regularly see any tendencies of reverse striping from this line,(so I'm not sure where you're getting that from?)until this year we have not seen any noticable reduction in pattern,per se,the standard tendency is for blocky,rectangular,partially striped/striped patterns that are dorsally restricted in those animals that display aberrancies....I understand that everyone is curious about what they represent,we are too! we simply will not know what they are until they are bred...they are DEFINATELY,a product of the Harlequin bloodline,regardless of ANY presumed,or,hidden genetic influence contributed by the mother. I have no real way to address the "co-dom" thing without some type of understanding about what you think "co-dom" means???(many people insist in refering to hypos as "co-doms"& "doms" that's two different genetic terms applied to one single mutation?)

I am only asking questions and questioning theorys...I love the Harlequins and if the patternless is a product of them that is great! I just see it way to much lately to say it is specific to your boas or any other for that matter. I cannot even see how it can be simple recessive either, but those are just opinions as well. It is my guess, but like I said I am not very genetically knowledgeable, but my guess is, it is something like a polygenetic thing...that when many breedings are performed these patternless can be created. That is the short version as I am heading out the door...but why is the patternless showing up in so many different litters? That's what has me so curious. Thanks Andy

I learn something new everyday. I didnt know I could search the entire forums for any post I had ever made.

I did a search and I have found my Jungle posts.. each refers to other Jungle questions that were brought up already that I was either adding to or asking about, or seen in the classifieds. I have never posted or started a post stating Look at My Jungles etc. This does not mean much.. but I stated earlier that I had never initiated the jungle argument.. I still dont think I ever have.. but then again I didnt go throug all 3 years to check. However as you can see I am asking the same questions over and over to make sure I am still on the same page for my projects.

Below are the posts I copied and pasted.. not very exciting.

Posted by: morelans at Tue Dec 2 08:10:32 2003 [ Email Message ]

Ok.. so I have a question about the Boas that look like Jungles. A few posts down there were pics of Junglish type boas that appeared to have the Jungle patterns. Lets say that whoever posted was able to get pictures of the parents as well as the grandparents of their Junglish looking boa and they ALL had that same look. Does the Boa then become a JUNGLE boas instead of Jungle looking Boas?

If we have to prove genetics by going back.. then how far back do we have to go to prove and label the animals as Jungle?

Thanks in advance.

Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com

Posted by: morelans at Tue Dec 2 20:40:27 2003 [ Email Message ]

I would like to thank everyone who posted both for and against the Jungle question I posted earlier. I am not fighting either way, but I did want to see where my Junglish looking Boas stood. I can see there is no quick answer and it looks like I will have to either get pictures from the breeder to show past siblings and or breed them to normals myself and see what comes out. I assume both would be the best case.

Since I have 1.2 I could breed 1.1 together and then a Normal male to a female and see if that pair throws Junglish looking boas. That is a long time off Im afraid. I guess I could cut that time a litte by breeding the Junglish Male to a normal female since they can reproduce at a younger age them females. That is ok as my male seems to have the more prominent Jungle look and coloration.

Well.. I guess it is back to feeding and cleaning for a while until they are big enough to answer the questions themselves.

Thanks again
Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com

Ok.. so I have a question about the Boas that look like Jungles that Matt posted. Lets say that Matt was able to get pictures of the parents as well as the grandparents and they ALL had that same look. Does the Boas that Matt own then become JUNGLE boas instead of Jungle Type Boas?

If we have to prove genetics by going back.. then how far back do we have to go to prove and label the animals as Jungle?

Thanks in advance.

Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com

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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

do a breeding loan with someone that does have a known jungle?
(Maybe JS would do it??)
Then you'd know for sure and it would be much quicker than
just proving out what you have is genetic over the next few
years. Because even if it proves out to be an inheritable trait
and does have a super form, you won't know for sure it is
compatable with the known jungle lines until they are bred
together and proved out.
just my $.02

Animals that "look" even MORE like Jungles than those...but,they are NOT Jungles! I think those animals are awesome & to get them as "normals" is even MORE awesome...certainly worthy of a long term breeding project. I think I'm the one that keeps trying to impart to people; "If you cannot trace the questionable animals back to the original bloodline",then don't try so hard to "what if them" into being something other than what they prove(through breeding,)to actually BE.it is entirely possible to stumble onto something that works the same way geneticlly,but,the only reason I can think of to attempt to jump on the Jungle bandwagon is to make a buck..can you imagine what a stupid move it would've been on my part,to sell my Harlequin animals as Jungles? regardless of WHAT Jeremy,or,Pete,or,anyone else said!the credibility of my entire project would be "SQUAT"(I've had other people with plenty of "Jungle experience" tell me "nice Jungle" btw)as far as the "compatability theory" goes,I think there will always be confusion with this subject regardless of the outcome,because of the "snowflake factor"(no two super Jungles,or,hets for that matter, that I've ever seen,look the same & have all of the same defining characteristics.)with variable traits you're going to get a variability in the expression of your results,(exclaimation point,then a period ) most of this confusion is self perpetuated by a two dimentional thought process,(the duck analogy)not because a similar,(or even identicle!) genetic mutation can,or,cannot sprout from a completely separate bloodline...

I see one aspect of the aberrant that resembles a jungle, however it is missing all the rest: Increased color, sudden dorsal coloration change, increased bordering, washout, etc. But again, just going from one picture. Seeing the boa in person could yeild another view.

I really could not put on paper what makes a Jungle.. I was just watching as JS pointed out the multiple aspects he said they had that matched the jungles.

I do not remember them all.. but I do know he said something about the holes in the saddles, color, saddle shapes squarer or something like that and a few others. Heck back then I had never even heard of a Jungle.. I just heard JS say "If on my table they would be 3K" 3 years later you can tell I still dont know much about them.. and still cant put it on paper exactly what makes on.

That is why I keep asking questions.. not to stir the pot but for me to try and get a better understanding of what I have.

I would be foolish to post normals for sale with odd patterns and try to price them as jungles but just as foolish to not find out and sell what I thought were normals and they turn out to be something.. jungles or whatever.

I wish I could take better pics.. I will try this weekend.
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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

Actually, you can put a $3000 price tag on an aberrant boa if it means that much to you. It may just end up meaning that much to someone else too. Stranger things have happened.

Sometimes something sells better because it has a higher price tag, sometimes not. You never know what is going to appeal to somebody.

I have spent stupid amounts of money (stupid by my standards, which are based on an empty wallet) on animals, well over what they were worth, just because I fell in love with it when I saw it and had to have it. It was worth that extra to me.

Simply put, and item is worth whatever anyone is willing to spend on it.

When my pastel looking circleback laddertail was 4', I put her up for sale briefly for $2000 - I had someone who was willing to pay that for her...but, I decided to keep her. Now that she is nearly 6', I would want $3000 for her...not that I would sell her... but, she is not a known Jungle, or het for rare MoonGlowDiamonds, or anything else. She's just nice, and nice has a price tag.

Jungles are gorgeous with the BOLD lines on clean, colorful backgrounds...On leos they are called "Bold Jungles or Bold Aberrants," they are worth more than normal jungles and aberrants.

Perhaps someday I can own a jungle. It would be nice...

But, until then, I am more than thrilled with my aberrants. Outrageous & tweaked patterns are gorgeous irregardless.

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StarlightSpecialties.com

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Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

Easy answer to a complicated question: if you have an aberant boa that you think is jenetic. First prove your animal on a normal (preferably a circle-back Or even a circle-back lader-tail; but definatly nothing striped or aberent). If it turns out to be a co-dominant trait then breed the original animal to a Jungle (or Sweed Jungle if you will); if from this breeding you get Super-Jungles then feel free to call your animal a jungle, and sell them as a new-bloodline that is compatable with the original. But if your line proves out to be jenetic but not compatable with the original THEN CALL IT SOMTHIG ELSE....DO THE WORK>>>PROVE IT>>>BE ORIGINALL!!!!!

THANKX KEVIN