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I was just wondering if anyone knew or could estimate the number of Alterna caught each year?

>>I was just wondering if anyone knew or could estimate the number of Alterna caught each year?

We really have no way of knowing. Best anyone could do would be a wild guess that could be off by as much as 100% or more.

So with that qualification, I'll take a wild guess.

I guess between 200-300 yearly for all locals.

The reason why I asked was that I heard (about 5 years ago) an estimate of 50/year. Since so many more hunters are hitting Texas now, I wondered if that number had risen.

DSM

>>The reason why I asked was that I heard (about 5 years ago) an estimate of 50/year. Since so many more hunters are hitting Texas now, I wondered if that number had risen.
>>
>>DSM

I bet it was more than 50 a year 5 years ago, unless we just had a really bad drought during that time.

I would suspect 50 come off 277 alone in any one year. I know two folks who together have 20 this year, so most certainly 50 was way too conservative.

Best
Joe

412

413 if I DON'T go

>I know two folks who together have 20 this year, so most certainly >50 was way too conservative.

Two people who have taken 20 alterna in one season? What the hell for? This is the sort of behavior that gets species listed. I have a grand total of two live alterna (many of you have none). As soon as I pair up my Crockett county female, I'm done.

I really wish the mystique would wear off on these snakes so that people wouldn't feel obliged to keep every alterna they find. It gives the hobby a bad name, IMHO.

(BTW - Joe, if you are implying that the two people found 20, but didn't take them all, I sit corrected. However, the original question was about how many were "taken". And even if those two aren't guilty, there are lots of others here who are. I just don't want us to be guilty of overharvesting these animals. Maybe it is time for TX to impose a possession limit - not a license, but a limit of say 10 total alterna in possession.)
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Chris Harrison
Does anyone else here think that these scrolling signature lines are stupid?

Because of my actions in the past, this may sound hypocritical, however...

I AGREE 100%!

I don't collect anything anymore unless I have a very good reason for it, and I don't keep snakes at home (I actually feel sorry for captive snakes in cages - it sucks IMO) I certainly don't see any reason to collect 15 or 20 alterna in a single season.

I also don't want to get into a soapbox with those of you do collect every alterna you see. I realise that you have a legal priviledge to do so and will not argue that with you.

Having said that, I wish more folks would catch and release. If you make an effort to get into photography, you can photo document your finds, GPS them, and your memories will last forever. Not to mention you don't have to clean up after or feed photographs.

I've skirted the issue when it came up previously, but since Chris called me out on it, that's exactly how I feel.

Best
Joe

Dr. Campbell once told me that "some people grow out of keeping snakes and others never do".

My cousin once told me that he didn't think keeping animals "in jail" was right.

To answer the first, I really dislike the "holier than thou" attitude that it implies. "I've grown up and you haven't" is what it says to me, and I don't think its a matter of "growing up" one way or another but rather of preference. If you decide to focus your efforts on photography or research or something else, then that's fine and dandy. But its not "growing up", and to think such is simply "putting on airs". If someone else chooses to keep forever, then that's their business. Its a lot of work, particularly with a large collection, but it really can be a labor of love. A passion, and I think its wrong to knock other people's passions (at least so long as they don't hurt other people LOL).

As for the second . . . do snakes' experience "happy"/"sad" or are we just anthropomorphisizing? They aren't people and have tiny primitive brains lacking in cognitive function, so any emotional labeling we put on them is simply us projecting our own emotions onto them. Animal "rights" for fish and herps is just plain bizarre (even more so than "animal rights" for dogs and cats, and don't get me started on "companion animals" and "adoptions"!). I rather think that my well-fed animals are quite "happy" (in the physical sense) to get their meals and avoid predation, drought, etc. In the physical sense, my 21 year old corn snake has led a quite "happy" life - plenty of food and lots of reproductive opportunities - he's probably been far more reproductively successful than any wild corn would ever have been.

So . . . I'm not knocking you saying you don't keep stuff any more (although I had wondered) - that's your choice and good for you . . . but be careful in the way you word things so as not to imply things like "I've out grown it".

Troy

ok now you picked a fight by putting words in my mouth!

Actually Troy,

What I was trying to imply, or what I will try to imply now, is that it is simply a difference of opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't keep snakes in cages because "I" don't think it's right. I'm entitled to that opinion w/o a label of "Holier than thou".

After Brad joined joined the discussion I was really hoping to mediate between Chris and Brad becasue we are all friends here and I really didn't want it to deteriorate into labeling and such.

And if I do feel as though "I've grown out of it" that suits me! That doesn't mean it should suit you too, nor did I ever imply that it should!

More about me: I don't keep snakes at home anymore because "I've grown out of it". I'm happy to go collecting with the Zoo and bring back snakes on permit so that they can put them in "Jail"!! lol I love that, hey I'm entitled to my opinion, but just like my religion I don't try to force it on anyone.

Saying "I wish more folks would practise catch and relase" is not the same thing as saying "hey you guys are all idiots for catching all these graybands" Remember, I used to be just as guilty as the next guy.

I don't think any less of you because you have different opinions than I do Troy! Nor do I think any less of you because you keep snakes "in jail" lol and I don't (anymore)!

So please, be careful about putting words in my mouth. If I sounded like that I am truly sorry and I'm glad I get a chance here to clarify my position, but to each his own!

Best
Joe

I hope I didn't come off sound condescending to you or Chris. That certainly was not my intensions. Also for the record, I didn't think you were trying to push your beliefs/opinions on anyone, but it did kind of look like Chris was. Anyway, I felt it only right to flip the coin.

I know full well that you do not condemn/judge others for collecting animals.

Best,

Brad

I'm not mad or trying to fight or anything, either (I've put lots of LOL's and smileys in here).

First off, tell me how your taking Chris's side in the discussion was "mediating" between Brad and him? LOL

Second, you are still using "holier than thou" language - e.g. "Remember, I used to be just as guilty as the next guy."

I don't think that you think less of anybody for keeping (although its hard to tell from reading your words online). But I do feel that your (conscious/unconscious> word choice (such as the "guilty" above) could certainly be taken as such.

I still think that use of the phrase "I've grown out of . . . " is a poor word choice if you think that others are entitled to continue to enjoy whatever you've "grown out of". Rather instead I would suggest that you use "I no longer enjoy keeping snakes, so I gave it up" - that has no implications that you've acheived a higher state of existence LOL (and you don't sound like you're "putting on airs" either )

Troy

LOL
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Steve W.

>>LOL
>>-----
>>Steve W.

Troy and I can handle this banter w/o any ill effects. At the end of the day we will still have different ideas on some things, but that's ok!

Best
Joe

Glad to here this. I was thinking about staying home next year. lol
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Steve W.

There are several reasons why I don't keep snakes anymore.

One of them is that I have grown out of it. When I see cool stuff in the wild I still have to fight the urge to bring it home and put it in jail though lol.

Another reason is that I didn't have time to properly care for my animals, and for the animals I kept that wasn't fair. If you take good care of your animals, then everything is fine by me. There are folks out there that do not take good care of their animals, I do not believe they should be allowed to keep animals. I hate to see any animal suffer, dog, cat, fish or snake doesn't matter, cruelty is cruelty. I'm not saying putting them in jail is creul, but neglecting them is. lol sorry I had to laugh because I picked up that "jail" thing from your cousin.

By the way, what is your cousin up to now days? Is he still in Alpine?

Apparently he's going to grad school there (doing what, I have no idea) and he's doing plant surveys for the USDA (right now, he was working fence on Clayton William's ranch earlier this year, what he'll be doing next week who knows). He told me "no snakes" were moving this year and I said except for the dozen or sol alterna caught in the past week LOL (he really hasn't gone out snake hunting with any seriousness in several years).

Troy

there and will be working with Rob on the noxious plant research part. He left last week i think to move to Alpine.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

I think Joe's lack of 'piety' is demonstrated by t-his forum. If Joe really felt that collecting alterna was morally bankrupt for others, he would no doubt walk away from the number one resource site used by alterna collectors around the world. He was one of the first to congratulate me on my eight alterna 'take' from Terrell county and requested that I write up the account for the Alterna Page - I just hope that the link to the story will not change from "Eight is Great!!" to "Eight is Greedy!!"(OH MAN!). And, he is more than open when it comes to disclosing possible new areas, or productive areas that are not well publicized. RP

True dat, Robert! I am fortunate to have had both Troy and Joe as resources for "my" unproductive alterna hunt, but Zee would probably say it was exceptional! (for him!) LOL! I didn't get one yet but he let me retrieve two that he spotted, so technically I "caught" 2 this year! I didn't find any but caught two! YEAH! Seriously, I have a lot of respect for you two and enjoy the fact that a man can express his opinions here 'cause this is America and as long as we obey the generous take laws, I think there are enough alterna out there to satisfy the demand for wild caught. I don't mind not being grown up yet and hope I never do, as far as west Texas is concrerned! Field herping is the one interest/hobby that I still have a serious passion for, and as such, I will continue to travel both known and less traveled roads in pursuit of happiness. Joe, the memories you shared as a kid could never be realized by a boy from Corpus until later in life, and Troy, you are an academecian, and fighting the good fight for Texas herpers, so I consider you plenty grown up! LOL! Gentlemen, can we agree to disagree? I hope this doesn't set anyone off, as I would hate to P.O. someone I haven't met yet but would like to! Wow, I can have as many alterna as I want? I just want one.....for now!
Todd Hughes
P.S. Thank you both for all your work, it is and will be greatly appreciated!

We've been in contact via e-mail and we contact each other via another forum, and in each venue our tone to each other is "downright friendly".

We've known each other 10 or 15 years and though we may have different ideas about some things or a spirited discussion once in a while, don't let the outwardly hostile appearance fool you, Troy and I are friends.

Troy gets into it with his buddy KW once in a while too. Those ones are fun to read if you ever get a chance

Best
Joe

Understood and never meant it to sound the way it did after rereading it. It's just, a newbie finds the forum, sits back and reads, then becomes a part of the whole, then it starts to sound like some of the guys on the getulas forum. Sheesh, there's a soap! Alterna reality show, LOL! Nah, I was just jawin'! I have lurked for about 5 years before I decided to grt off my butt and try my luck, yes luck,as I was a firm believer in facts and weather patterns and such but now include a section called just plain luck! Ya'll are great and it's a lot of fun to be on this forum.
Todd Hughes
P.s. Troy, you've always had some of the nicest alterna I've viewed!

Well, if you really think that by taking alterna from the road way and ignoring MUCH of its range and habiat is actually going to effect its population, then you must not realize how incredible their range is and just how many alterna there are. Please forgive me, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you Chris, it's just that this type of thinking scares the hell out of me. There are species out there that do need such concern, but alterna are certainly not one of them. They are extremely fossorial, are very secretive and have a huge range. I cannot foresee us ever being able to over collect them; as individuals or as a whole group. I can’t say that I would have collected that many myself or if I would have just let them go, it is likely I would have given some away to close friends. I say, good for them, I’m glad they have been so fortunate.

Best regards,

Brad Alexander

Brad,
I really can't speak for Chris. But I don't think that's the point at all. The point would be responsible use of wildlife resources.

Let's take Zonata for example, in your own backyard. If it were legal to take 10 everytime you hit the field, would you do it? I doubt it very seriously.

I "think" what Chris is saying is this "How many 277 or Langtry alterna do you need for a nice breeding colony?".

Chris will probably readily admit that you could not over collect alterna if you tried as far as the whole population is concerned. That is the whole reason we afforded the legal priviledge to collect them today.

Best
Joe

Yes, you're point is well taken and a good one. However, I can see a reason to collect what you are legally allowed. This would be for the pure passion of what you enjoy doing. On top of that, new blood and beauty lined up into your breeding colony isn't such a bad thing. However, I seriously can see the point that you are making and I do agree to a certain degree. It's the attitude more than anything that scares me. Chris seemed to approach it with a "how awful and how dare they do such a thing". Well, in my book, it really isn't that big of a deal. I think the biggest reason why it doesn't bother me as much as other species is because 99.9% of what is taken is from the road/cuts and other land is not as easily accessible. If there were an easy way to collect them like there is for zonata, then yes, 10 per person would be a bit extreme. However, you cannot flip them in numbers like some species; you just have to have a lucky encounter. So, if I go out and do what I thoroughly enjoy, herping for alterna, spend lots of money doing so, and I happen to get WAY lucky and find 10, then I might just keep them all. I'm sure there are many factors in such a decision that I would make, but I might let 5 or more go, or who knows what. I just know that this side of the argument is legitimate and worthy of voicing. I just see no sense in getting upset about someone’s good fortune, especially when it concerns a species that has an incomprehensible population with very few means to collect it.

Brad

P.S. I'm glad that some people feel that way, like Chris and yourself. It makes for a good balance, it's just not for everyone, and that's ok too.

Here's something to consider... it's neither here nor there regarding our discussion, but another thought on popualtion dynamics in regard to road cuts through alterna habitat.

I have an opinion that alterna are actually more common in certain places through their range on the sides of the roads.
Here's why I think so.

First they cut a road through level. They create habitat in the form of road cuts in the high places. They take the rubble from blasting the cuts and fill in the low places. This creates more habitat in the form of rip rap (talus if you will).

The roadway itself funnels water to the edges usually creating lusher grasses and vegetation than surrounding natural habitat.
The rest takes care of itself, mice, lizards, snakes, hawks, owls, skunks, etc. the whole food chain.

There are places in the natural Trans Pecos where these conditions are very similar, and they have high concetrations of alterna as well.

Best
Joe

I agree that some road cuts make for better alterna habitat than a lot of natural habitat does (like around Langtry?) but even so when you look at alterna habitat from above or from a distance, all the roadside represent is a whispy thread of accessible land.

Think of it this way . . . you've got a man with a full head of hair, and you pluck one. When it grows back, you pluck that same hair again. And again. Unless something else is going on, he's still got a full head of hair (Plucking one hair each time it grows back is akin to all the take along the roadside per year in my analogy). If you've got a receding hair line, thinning hair, or male pattern baldness, then you don't want to pluck any . . . but alterna populations seem to be rather stable or possibly expanding, so plucking that hair doesn't hurt at all.

Troy

I was just going to say....
unless you've got red hair like I do... you don't want to pluck ANY!

Troy, you havn't seen my head. LOL Ask Shannon or Aaron. lol
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Steve W.

> The point would be responsible use of wildlife resources.

While I doubt that I would keep 20 alterna (particularly Val Verde snakes) were I to catch that many in a season, I'm not sure that its "irresponsible". I think its still well within the parameters of "sustainable take". The 20 is certainly averaged out against 0 and 1 or 2 that most other collectors turn up with. Of course, I can't imagine getting that many in Val Verde - I'd get bored and head west for more of a challenge LOL.

> Let's take Zonata for example, in your own backyard. If it
> were legal to take 10 everytime you hit the field, would you
> do it? I doubt it very seriously.

Not the same thing. Apples and Oranges and all. You collect zonata off of hibernacula, and you can collect them in large numbers on any given day. Alterna you collect in their active season, and unless you get ridiculously lucky, you rarely find more than 1 or 2 a night (I know of someone finding 6 in one night off of Langtry, and that's the most I've ever heard of . . . ). You can get 10-20 zonata in a day in the right places without trying too hard.

> I "think" what Chris is saying is this "How many 277 or
> Langtry alterna do you need for a nice breeding colony?".

I think that 3 or 4 pair of nice animals would be about it for me, especially considering I keep a wide variety of snakes (I have 2 pair of 277s) . . . UNLESS I was going to focus solely on that location (like Dan did with the Gaps).

Troy

I think total take across the entire range is probably the most important thing to consider, because you can't get 20 off one location unless they are simply more common to begin with in that location.

However, I will stick with my opinion that one does not need 20 Langrty's in a single year, and IMO (purely subjective you see) that would be irresponsible use of wildlife resources (because you don't NEED 20 langrty's!)

Best
Joe

none of NEEDs any Langtrys (or a nice house on 70 acres of land, or anything else besides enough food to eat and a place to sleep - we could all live in a cubical and eat paste with our family, etc and our NEEDs would be met).

Its not at all about NEED but rather about desire and passion vs impact on the native populations. If there is no evidence of negative impact on the native populations, then I see no reason why not to allow someone who has a passion for alterna and the disire to keep bunches of them around to do so.

Troy

>>none of NEEDs any Langtrys (or a nice house on 70 acres of land, or anything else besides enough food to eat and a place to sleep - we could all live in a cubical and eat paste with our family, etc and our NEEDs would be met).
>>
>>Its not at all about NEED but rather about desire and passion vs impact on the native populations. If there is no evidence of negative impact on the native populations, then I see no reason why not to allow someone who has a passion for alterna and the disire to keep bunches of them around to do so.
>>
>>Troy

Apples and Oranges! Wildlife resources probably should not be compared to Food, housing, and land in this context.

I have different ideas, so we are going to have leave this as "difference of opinion".

You used the "IMO" in regards to what you THINK is irresponsible resource use and admitted it was purely subjective.

The responible resource manager tries to take Subjectivity out of the equation as best he can and to determine what sort of take the resource can withstand. For alterna, the evidence at hand suggests that 40 years of sustained take has not hurt the populations any so that there is no reason to change. Therefore, it is total take that matters - they guy that keeps 20 he finds in one year is balanced out by the dozen or more that keep 1 or 2. His take may SEEM excessive (in a purely subjective sense) but it really doesn't matter except in the eyes of those who's OPINION is that its too much.

Troy

his final decision will still be as subjective as my opinion, only hopefully he will have more evidence than I do. His final decision is after, his "opinion"!

Opinions are unsupported . . . hypotheses and theories are backed by evidence.

Troy

>>Opinions are unsupported . . . hypotheses and theories are backed by evidence.
>>
>>Troy

Well, he would have to have hard evidence of exact numbers of Gray-bands in the wild. Ain't that my friend ain't going to happen, so at the end of the day, it's an "opinion".

I'm going out for pizza, don't beat me up too bad over here!

Later
Joe

In wildlife management of small game, you NEVER have exact knowledge or hard evidence of numbers of the populations . . . what you do have are estimates of take numbers based on surveys. The wildlife manager looks for trends in the data, and then makes management decisions based on these trends.

For the management of these snakes, you can take a similar approach - you have to take what evidence you have and extrapolate from there. We can get reasonable estimates of take numbers over the years (even if anecdotal). . . we don't see any evidence of declining numbers. You take what you know about the animal's biology - sexual maturity at 3-4 years, maximum lifespan about 20 years, reproductive capacity 4-12 (or so) offsping per year, reproduction on a annual cycle in good years, less so in poor ones, etc.

All of the above takes the decision making from "OPINION" to scientifically educated guess = hypothesis.

Troy

When the state surveyed/monitored alterna collection numbers over a 3 year period, they determined that the number collected from the wild was miniscule when compared to the available habitat.

The only thing that matters is "is the take biologically significant?" and our current data suggests that it is not. Furthermore, the take is certainly less here in the 00's than it was in the late 80's and early 90's right after de-listing (and quite possibly less than during the 70's and 80's when it was protected, judging from old timer's stories).

I've caught 34 since 1987, and I've yet to let one go (although I'm at the point that if I caught one from Val Verde or even eastern Terrell Co that didn't fit in with my breeding groups that I would).

Finally, some people "get" the mystique of alterna, some never do. If you'll be happy with pairing up your Crockett snake, I'd suggest that you don't "get" the mystique. I'm rather a diehard, and I expect that hunting alterna will be part of my annual herping experience for the rest of my life, although over the past few years, my herping endeavors have changed to include a lot more travel outside of Texas . . .

Troy

if not now before on shear numbers of kept alterna ? I still know ( and I bet you all do to ) of people just keeping large numbers and even what i deem as ridiculous numbers of alterna just to be keeping but with other ideas of past and doesn't apply now. The obvious goal at one time for most multi kept alterna was the market value ( for most people ) that has definitely waned over the years. We know some people that still breeds alterna that will never even sale or trade all of the offsprings of a breeding and successful hatch. I ( and you all probably know as well ) some keepers that are or become over welmed by their collection of alterna ( add other species to this I guess ) and :> let's the collection go down hill, not able to feed as they should, make other priorities or other priorities come up and takes a toll on either the collection itself or breeding aspects that may include the demise of eggs/offsprings and or parent snake/s, have a disease come in because of lack of time or not good husbandry practices such as not quarantined wild caught animals.
Are they wrong, probably not but other than the so called professed thought or even spoken word of " I just LOVE these animals ". my opinion is my opinion that I do not understand the keeping of multi located animals from locations with all of my stated above. Understand that again I do not chastise anybody that does. I just don't or can't see it when it reaches dozen or dozens of species from a locality.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

I think Troy's point is none this matters as long as there is sustainable yield. Forget about alterna being ALTERNA for the moment and consider them to be any other nongame species to be harvested or hunted. As long as the annual yield is sustainable, as long as the take is biologically insignificant, which common sense dictates it is given the extremely limited access to habitat hunters have in Texas, one can do whatever one wishes to do with the snake. Does it piss me off when collections grow to a size that forces them to receive inadequate care - yeah it does, but IMO hunting regulations should be based on science which tends to lean towards objectivity, not morality which comes in a bunch of different colors

RP

I think something that got lost in Troy in I's banter is that even if the total take is well within the sustainable limit, that does not absolve each individual of the rsponsibiblity to use the resource wisely. I'm NOT talking about meager numbers of alterna like 8 from any one or two localities.

Troy brought up Dan Johnson, but I can't remember why. Dan is a perfect example of someone who used the resources wisely. He collected a relavtively small amount of gray-bands from several localities and made hundreds of them through captive breeding.

I just want everyone in here to know I'm NOT the anti-collector, I'm just preaching wise use of resources.

Best
Joe

That's all we can preach.

RP

I am going to put my 2 cents in here. I do not know who you are and I do not think I have ever met you. If I have met you in the past and do not remember, chalk it up to my old age. I do not know if you are from Texas or one that comes to Texas to collect. If you are from here you will probably understand my comments below. If not, I suggest you make your comments to your own state's wildlife department.

As far as your comments about limiting or anything else about possession of snakes is concerned, my response to you is to keep it to yourself.

For those who have lived through the "dark ages" of Texas illegalizing snake collecting back in the 70's, we would probably all agree that we do not want anything like that to happen again. One of the primary reasons anyone can now collect reptiles in Texas is because of the collectors providing statistics about the reptiles collected.

To come across with the statement that after you catch one more you "are done" is very hypocritical. Who is to say that the "one" you catch is not the one that would be critical to the specie at that local. I know that is a stretch but, it appears to me that since everyone on this forum is opinionated, you now have mine. WHEN AN OPINION HAS THE POSSIBILITY OF HAVING AN IMPACT ON WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS ACTUALLY ABLE TO DO OR NOT, WE SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL OF VOICING IT UNLESS IT REALLY IS YOUR INTENT TO TRY AND HAVE THINGS CHANGED LEGALLY. If so, make it plain and let the chips fall where they may. But, be very careful you may not really like the results.

ET

I do not get the impression that Chris was talking so much about population dynamics and sustained takes as much as public perception. It is not unheard of for our representatives to make an unsound scientific decision based on public opinion/perception or a lack of better understanding. I have a feeling that this may be where he was headed.

After all, for Joe Public Perception = Truth

Lance

I have 2.2 from 277, 1.1 from Langtry and 1.0 from Davis. I would like 2.2 more from 277, 1 black and bright orange Blair's from Langtry and 2.3 more from Davis. I would also like to collect at least 1 Black Gap to go with my 4.4 captive born Black Gaps. After that I might collect some Rivers and Huecos if I could find any but I would probably let go or give away any Sandersons, Christmas' or other localities because I like to have larger group of the localities I work with but can't take care of all the localities I want.
Somebody taking 20 277's does not concern me at all because of the situation in TX of limited access to habitat. I would like it if they would post pics though.