Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Saw this one on the classifieds. Would this be a pure chain King? Nice looking guy either way. Thanks in advance.

Steve
Link

I,m not sure what it is, but it sure doesn't look an Eastern King to me. I'm sure some others on this forum can help with a possible species i.d.

Todd

be able to see the head. Maybe has some Eastern in it, but doesn't look "pure" to me. I'm interested to see what others think.

Todd

But a chain X splendida cross is what it appears to be. . . (note the "sock-head"

One of those chain kings must have caught a bus to the desert to dive into a new "gene POOL", LOL!

Zee

I would even say it has no Eastern blood in it at all. The stripe on the neck tells me it's a splendida X cal......looks typical in comparison to others I've seen.

Brandon Osborne

Yes, that could very well be it, a Cal king X Splendida. I was only giving a "BEST" case scenario of a "western" chain king!!!
But what about the "Bus" hypothesis? What if an eastern really did get tired of living in the east coast, hopped on a bus and wanted to go check out the desert and found himself a pretty "Sock-head" (girlfriend)??? LOL!!!

Zee

I didn't think he was 100 percent Eastern, but just wanted to see what others thought. It's being advertised as a 'Chain King'

Steve

Advertised as a Chain King. . . .Hmmmmmmmmmmm. . . . . .
Ok, it does have chains, buuuuuuttttttttt. . . .

Here's a pic of a NICE 37" WC North Carolina, Chain King from Richmond county. A VERY clean high white with wide bands example. . .

Zee

hahaha yep thats a chain king i guess but id say by the pic its a WESTERN chain AKA lampropeltis getula californiae AKA caliking ,,,,,, pretty funny to post it as an eastern folks ought know what they sell afore trying to sell'um someone should let the seller know IMHO,,,,,,,thomas

It clearly has no eastern in it.
It clearly has some Cal King in it. It might have some splendida in it, but it isn't a wild caught splendida x cal intergrade.

What bothers me is the orange colored scales on the back between the dark blotches. Something tells me that snake has some non-kingsnake genes somewhere in its past.

This is the problem with hybridization. After a while, people don't know what things are a just make up names for them by looking at a few pictures in a book.
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Chris Harrison
Does anyone else here think that these scrolling signature lines are stupid?

After looking at the pic a little more, it does appear to possibly have some floridana mixed in as well. This could be where the orange is coming from. It's pattern also resembles some of the albino cal x floridana I've seen posted. I do agree......it's very hard to tell. Cal X Splendida X Floridana? Who knows?

Brandon Osborne

Unfortunately "Who-knows" are becoming more common in the pet trade these days. . . I own one too, it looks like a Cal king X goini (was labeled as a goini at the NC reptile show). I can't find the pic right now I'll post it later. . .

Zee

It was sold as a Goini at a reptile show in NC. I liked the way she looked and bought her anyway. I think it might be a Cal king X goini. . .

Zee

Now I really like this one of yours Zee. Can you find true blotched kings that have this look? Blackish saddles on a white to cream body for a nice high contrast. Very nice indeed.

Steve

...is it you have pictured ?

Are you referring to the last picture? The last picture is a 26.5" female goini that I bought at the NC. reptile show last fall (it was the last one left at his table). I was told by the owner that it was the only one that came out white looking out of the whole clutch. He said that all of her siblings were orange looking. Seemed like no one wanted her so I bought her because I liked the "different" look. She does have quite a bit of orange on her belly though. . .
BTW: The other (first pic) is a F-1 goini from Krysko.

Zee

This is the problem with hybridization. After a while, people don't know what things are a just make up names for them by looking at a few pictures in a book.

Chris,
The "problem" is we don't need hobbyist falling into the same mudhole as the academic sector. I understand that all of us cannot be experts in every area, so please do not try and spread rumor and conjecture that can be misconstrued and influence an untold number of people who will never know any better.

1) If you have to look the snake up in a book you are already in trouble with identifying the snake. If look the snake up in a book wouldn't it be more more prudent to key the animal out since it required looking up a pic in the first place?

2)Any snake can be misrepresented by a seller. Whether hybrid, pure, locality specific, captive born, wildcaught ect ect.

There have been a lot of posts on natural hybrids, intergrades and more recently some post by FR about the splendidas. If someone purchases, collect or breeds a snake you will run into a problem if he does not know what it is and sells it as whatever on the internet. Even morphs like ghost and snows are mislabled. So you see the "problem" is not hybrids but all snakes.

It sounds like it is the sellers that are the problem.

There have been a lot of posts on natural hybrids, intergrades and more recently some post by FR about the splendidas. If someone purchases, collect or breeds a snake you will run into a problem if he does not know what it is and sells it as whatever on the internet. Even morphs like ghost and snows are mislabled. So you see the "problem" is not hybrids but all snakes.

If ALL people correctly represented their snakes as they are, we wouldn't be questioning what this snake is. But the fact that so many sellers do misrepresent and the fact that so many hybrids are being bred today, I think we have to see both as the problem.

I've said this time and again, anyone who wants to keep their collection "pure" shouldn't have any problem with any of this. Eliminate all subjectivity in the selection of your breeder stock and the problem goes away. Period!

I mean would you ever buy a animal from a pet shop and except it as “pure” regardless of how it looked would you?

Sean
I think you missed my point. There is no connection to JUST sellers and hybrids. Its ALL snakes and sellers that are the connection. Bad peoiple are in all areas of life. We will also have the misinformed and those who use this hobby strictly for financial gain. I personally think all snakes are beautiful gems so I harbor no hate towards any type. Just people.

Hybrid snakes are fine for the hobby and they will not harm the environment. This is what certain individuals with half a brain want people to think. Whenever I hear hybrids are bad it hits a nerve and its all because of misinformation and peer pressure.

>>Hybrid snakes are fine for the hobby and they will not harm the environment.

hybrids may not harm the natural environment (unless, of course, other "bad people" choose to turn some of them loose into it). But i'd argue that their presence diminishes people's appreciation for wildlife in its natural forms and that could in turn add to the threats to the natural environment. I'd be curious how you think they are "fine" for the hobby, unless it's that the beauty of some of the results might attract new hobbyists--albeit people who might not recognize there are wild types that are beautiful too and that because they're natural might be even more impressive and more to be appreciated.

Of course, perhaps there's an argument for people following the lead of some of the tropical fish hobbyists and painting their specimens prior to sale. The bright colors inarguably produce some colorful specimens that are arguably pretty--if you don't realize they're just artificial constructs unlike what might be found in anture--and interesting--if you don't mind the bolts showing in their necks. Seriously, though, insteasd of name-calling (see below) advance your argument by putting together a serious presentation of how hybrids are "fine". I'm willing to read it with an open mind. Well, half of one, at least.

>>This is what certain individuals with half a brain want people to think.

that's just a dumb argument and your other posts over time on the forum have shown you know that, imho.

>> Whenever I hear hybrids are bad it hits a nerve and its all because of misinformation and peer pressure.

Well, let's look at those two things separately.

what misinformation? I'd propose that every hybrid created creates a new life form that can never revert to the nominative form. It exposes herpetoculture to risk from people who do not adequately--much less properly--identify them; some differences are subtle enough that keying--much less photo ID--will not be sufficient to provide accurate post-hybridization identification. It's not so much hybridization as it is bastardization. Dogs have evolved into a number of "types"; is that a desired goal for the snake world--that someday people will be breeding "those red things" and "those things with the ziggly stripes that look really cool to me" or whatever, and no remnant of appreciation for their origins? WE are--or were, a decade ago--in a captive environment in which people prized animals for their identities as they existed in the wild, relished breeding them, appreciated the variations within the natural species and subspecies and insights into natural phenomenon such as intergradation and even--as phil peak's posts show jsut today, in variations that might or might not be related to habitat. We relished seeing a specimen in the wild (will finding a hybrid in the wild someday really make your socks roll up and down?) And so on. So if you cite "misinformation", give some examples of it (i'm sure you can find some, and some will have no merit, some some merit, and some a lot--so we can evaluate them rationally).

As for peer pressure, i can only figure you're trying to object to anyone who might be influenced by or agree with someone who posits an argument that there are undesirable effects from hybridization? It's hard to imagine how the masses could be influenced by a bunch of half-brains.

This half's for you,
Terry

Ahh Terry, let me guess you are a refomed 60's child that is now a democrat?..also this isn't the first time that (you so eloquently put) hybrid snakes are piles of cr*p and that you don't want to be associated with them.

I'd propose that every hybrid created creates a new life form that can never revert to the nominative form

All snakes evolving into new life forms. What about the natural hybrids? What about the crosses that happen in nature creating "so called" pure forms?

Let me get this straight your whole arguement is that hobbiests should not breed hybrids is because they might be released into wild populations? I hope not. But lets say a few escaped. Just like any snake , right? Like boas in Florida? and brown snakes in Hawaii? Bad arguement Terry. Those snakes will establish colonies that causes an imbalance to the whole system. By your own criteria we should not own ANY snakes at all. We should move to Mars and let mother earth do whats "natural" while us "unatural" beings raise "unatural" babies in tupperware to produce mutants morphs and allow ourselve to think we are doing the right thing..

Next time you breed any snakes Terry mix them in a bag and arbitrarily pull them out and breed them. Then you will be half a step closer to whats pure and natural selection will take over. Just be sure not to *whoops* get any intergrades mixed in before you do.

>>Ahh Terry, let me guess you are a refomed 60's child

I prefer to think of myself as an UNreformed child of the 60s, thank you very much.

>>.also this isn't the first time that (you so eloquently put) hybrid snakes are piles of cr*p and that you don't want to be associated with them.

No, that's not what i say. Actually i say
--many of them are very beautiful, and interesting, and
--i think they pose some huge problems for herpetoculture's future, and
--i don't want to be associated with them.

>>All snakes evolving into new life forms. What about the natural hybrids? What about the crosses that happen in nature creating "so called" pure forms?
1. i think you'd agree naturally occurring hybrids (not intergrades) represent less than 1% of wild caught animals. that being the case, they may occur in nature but it is an extremely rare occurrence.
2. forest fires occur in nature--and unlike hybrids, in many environments those fires are often essential to a habitat's life cycle.
3. You justify hybridizing because it (very rarely) happens in nature. At least that seems to me to be your primary argument. i assume then that you also believe that since forest fires occur in nature, we should all feel free to start one any time we want, for our personal gratification? ("oooh, look at the colors!" "look at the patterns in that smoke plume!" )

I don't think so. I think we need to stop, and consider, and weigh our actions, and consider the consequences, and not give knee-jerk defensives for the activity. Whether or not something happens on rare occasions in nature is no argument for anyone doing it in captivity, other than in controlled lab experiments with a purpose in mind, a higher-minded purpose than creating beautiful mutts. It MIGHT not be wrong, but it's not automatically a good thing, either.
>>
>>Let me get this straight your whole arguement is that hobbiests should not breed hybrids is because they might be released into wild populations?

i'd encourage anyone to read my preceding post and see whether that's what i said.

>> I hope not. But lets say a few escaped. Just like any snake , right? Like boas in Florida? and brown snakes in Hawaii? Bad arguement Terry.

Yeah, but it's not MY argument. That's a lousy debating tactic.

>>Those snakes will establish colonies that causes an imbalance to the whole system. By your own criteria we should not own ANY snakes at all.

Back in the 60s when someone in the group started talking like that we'd make 'em stop "socializing" and go lie down for a while.

>>We should move to Mars and let mother earth do whats "natural" while us "unatural" beings raise "unatural" babies in tupperware to produce mutants morphs and allow ourselve to think we are doing the right thing..

Oooh, you got me there! The stem cell argument!
>>
>>Next time you breed any snakes Terry mix them in a bag and arbitrarily pull them out and breed them. Then you will be half a step closer to whats pure and natural selection will take over.

NExt tyime the hybrid discussion rears its ugly head, LOL, could i just say, "They're beautiful and i think they pose serious threats to herpetoculture and i don't wish to associate with them" and you could post, "next time you breed any snakes mix them in a bag and arbitrarily pull them out and breed them, then you will be half a step closer to what's pure and natural selection will take over" and we can let those two arguments rest on their merits?

this has been entertaining but it dis-serves the herpetocultural community--or, at least, it disserves the readers on this forum except for those who are entertained by watching the two of us try to imitate that banjo-playing kid in Deliverance.

I'm gonna post again right after this one, and ask a serious question, and see if we can't have a little more serious discussion on the subject.

peace
terry

You like 'em, i don't, we need to discuss things on a better level than that.

Help me understand your position: What exactly do you think herpetoculture will be like five or ten years from now? What would you like to see it be?

Do you foresee national expos where most of the snakes on exhibit and for sale are not specimens of species and subspecies found in the wild, but beautiful and interesting hybrids?

Will they be properly identified ("16% this, 8% that, 2.767% this...."

Or will people have acknowledged they've lost track of the nature of their animals? With the exception of a few purists, akin to today's locale-specific breeders, will the snakes exhibited and offered for sale instead be described by appearance: "a bright red snake that will reach five feet in length"; "a rodent-eating snake with peach saddles on a tan background with a solid yellow venter and a skull-like shape to the dark markings on its head" etc.

Will forums be dedicated to categories of descriptive terms instead of taxonomy?

I ask these questions because it's undeniable that a massive change has occurred between the nature of the animals at shows ten years ago and those today (or those advertised for sale ten years ago and those advertised today). The change: From virtually no hybrids, to many. And i would argue the percentage represented by hybrids has increased from five yars ago to today. It's probably increased each year. If this is happening, it is reasonable for us to ask where/how that process will end. Or, at least, where it will be five or ten years from now.

What do you think?

terry

I would say that if many years from now hybrids prevail in the hobby and if we can no longer collect wild stock because of legislation or extinction we will then miss the the wild types.

Terry couldn't it also be said production of albino and hypos also reduces appriciation of wild forms?

>>Terry couldn't it also be said production of albino and hypos also reduces appriciation of wild forms?

It could be said.

But the color morphs are variations that can occur in nature: The hondo that bill love bought and that eventually produced the first hypos was wild caught; ditto the anerythristic hondo that all the current anerys & snows and ghosts are descendents of. The first amel red rats were wild caught. I'm not sure of the histories of the various color morphs of other kings or milks or other colubrids, but i think you get the idea. I think it's reasonable (or would have been reasonable in the recent past) for grayband afficionados to hope someone might someday run across an amel specimen in the wild: It's possible, and it would be "real", naturally occurring. Replicating it in captivity by properly managing the gene resource would be very similar to any of the other natural selection processes breeders have used to breed chain kings to their liking or breooksi with optimal red or yellow, etc., except that the morphs you refer to are simpler, simple recessives. Part of my concern over the proliferation of hybrids is that if/when that first amel grayband is found it will be very hard to convince any one it "is what it is" rather than the product of, for example, a ruthveni x alterna cross. Eventually the same will be true if/when someone turns a piece of tin and finds the first amel or anery coastal plains milk, let's say--authentication becomes almost impossible, at least until DNA tests become so readily available and inexpensive that sorting out the real from the not real is a simple process.

peace
terry