Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted the pics right after she hatched a couple of weeks ago. I posted that she did not have one single yellow scale. After the shed a few have appeared. The only explanation that I can think of is that more pigment came in during the shed cycle. She was also a lot more pink pre-shed and the white really came in after the shed. This is very minimal and I still think she is a spectacular animal, but it is not perfect like I had hoped. I marked one in the pic so you can see what I am talking about.

I still think that this yellow may be the same as the yellow that sometimes appears in the Leucistic Texas Rat snakes. Only 3 Black Eyed Leucistics have been produced so far. I am sure as more are produced, we will learn more.

yellow spot sure does ruin the whole snake. (LOL) Definitely "B" grade stock so you should send it to me. (LOL)

Congratulations, awesome snake, even with a touch of yellow.

What really would have set her apart from the other lucys is if she would have been born with that arrow pointing to the yellow scales. Now that would have been a keeper!

Call it something cool and sell it for even MORE -- The Paradox Black Eyed Leucistic!

(That seems to be the trend nowadays.)

Congratulations! Big time!

Chris
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mean people suck

Still a gorgeous snake Mike, congrats.

Quig

I like it after shed........
You guys must be very happy and proud!
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RicK @ BbI

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The two small yellow marks on the '02 male have almost disappeared. They seem to fade as the snakes get older. Eric

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OZZYBOIDS

Mike,

I am not at all trying to be a smart aleck but I was under the impression that by definition, leucistic meant that an animal had no pigment whatsoever. I was just wondering if this applied to ball pythons as well, or if the term leucism is used to describe any super form of fireballs, mojaves, etc. whether or not they have small amounts of yellow pigment. If you wouldn't mind shedding some light on the subject for me, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks! GORGEOUS snake by the way. Congrats.

The term Leucistic just means colored white. There are many leucistic birds that have black and other colors, but are mostly white.

From www.birdhobbyist.com

Leucistic mutations correlate to mutant alleles of loci that control melanocyte life functions, in particular migration of melanoblasts (melanocyte precursors) from the neural crest in the embryo. True leucistic mutations are uncommon, the black-eyed clear phenotype being the true appearance. But partial leucism is very common. These are Pied birds; those that have some regions devoid of melanin and yet other regions fully coloured. The hallmark of leucistic colour morphs is that melanin is either totally absent or fully retained. There are never qualitative nor quantitative changes to melanin in these colour morphs. Many mutant alleles with leucistic characteristics also show evidence of pleiotrophic behaviour. This means they have effects beyond the basic effect on melanin production and is not surprising for loci controlling complex functions like melanoblast migration.

Notice the bold words. A true leucistic does not have pigment producing cells, hence they are white with blue eyes(this is because of the refractive properties of the protiens that make up the eye which refract and reflect light similar to the way the ocean does). This would then mean that the "black eyed leucistic" is not leucistic at all, just an all white super, while the blue eyed leucistic is the only true leucistic form.

Either way they are both beautiful snakes and I would love to have either in my collection. Does anyone know if the WC leucistic female from pete kahl ever produced anything? If she produces hets with no markers then one could argue that she is the true leucistic and all others are just all white supers.
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1.21 ball pythons
1 speckled kingsnake
1 snapping turtle
1.0 argentine horned frog
1.1 English Bulldogs

I left something out, the protein properties may be different in birds, because they only talk about black eyes. In leopard geckos, monitor lizards, tortoises, texas rat snakes, alligators, and the only leucistic burmese ever, thier eyes were always blue.
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1.21 ball pythons
1 speckled kingsnake
1 snapping turtle
1.0 argentine horned frog
1.1 English Bulldogs

Very interesting stuff. I learned something today! I'd love to see further discussion on this topic. Thanks guys.

You have this in bold "the black-eyed clear phenotype being the true appearance." Then you direct us to look at the bold and say the Blue Eye is the true leucistic.

Both are Leucistic according to the way we have always used the term with reptiles.

BTW, the Leucistic Burmese had black eyes.

'You have this in bold "the black-eyed clear phenotype being the true appearance." Then you direct us to look at the bold and say the Blue Eye is the true leucistic. '

Well spotted Mike, you just beat me to it! One thing that Coyotethug doesn't mention, is that colour definition in birds is completely different to that of snakes. The colour of a bird depends upon the light refraction of the feathers and the amount of melanin present.

Peter Kahl's W/C Leucistic is actually an Ivory, and yes it did produce - Yellow Bellies.

Ever picture I have seen of the Pete Kahl snake doesn't show a yellow stripe like the ivories do and has blue eyes. That is interesting that it produced yellow bellies. I didn't see that info anywhere, did he tell you that.

Also, snake scales and bird feathers are made of similar materials, namely keratin. Birds evolved from dinosaurs which evolved from reptiles, the same basic material stayed with them, just in different forms. The color of all animals depends upon light refraction and the pigments, xantherin, melanin, and erytherin present. The only color not represented in pigments is blue, which is caused by the structure of the protiens, not a pigment. All others are a combination of the pigments and any structural pigments present. Hence the "blue" frog morphs which are simply a green frog which is axanthic.

I too love these conversations, because it gets us more into the science and the proof behind it. Hopefully over the years we can see exactly what is going on with these white super morphs. They don't make sense as mendelian inherited traits, there is something else going on there. If I am wrong, then I will learn something new. But everything I have been taught in school and working in the zoology field is what I have said.

Hope to hear from everyone soon.

PS the Skinhead ball is doing great, she shed the first time and no new scales showed up. I can't wait to try to prove this one out. If it is not genetic then at least I will have a cool female in my collection.
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1.21 ball pythons
1 speckled kingsnake
1 snapping turtle
1.0 argentine horned frog
1.1 English Bulldogs

Gotta say that Mikey is right on this one, Leucistic simply means 'WHITE' you are taking your info from a bird Hobbiest site. Which is no more scientific then this one is..... The Black eyed, the Blue eyed, even the 'Ivory' can all be considered Leusistic.

VOT