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What would you do? (Long)

AlteredMind99 Jul 09, 2005 02:46 PM

Being a paranoid and over protective owner, all i have been able to think about lately is my beardies current health situation and what i am going to do about it. I am cautious to use aggressive treatements (i.e antibiotics) unless i absolutely have to. I am just wondering what everyone else would do, and why, if they were in this situation?

Here is the rundown on whats been going on:

About 1 1/2months ago i noticed my beardie wasn't defecating. After trying all the at home remedies (warm water soaks, tummy massages, squash, and mineral oil) and going over and over my husbandry to make sure it was all squeaky clean, i brought her into my work (a vet clinic) to be seen. At this point it had been about 2 weeks since her last bowel movement. Upon palpation the vet discovered urate stones, during palpation she passed 3 stones and defecated all over the floor. Needless to say, i was exstatic. We ran a fecal and discovered a superinfection of pinworms. We also took xrays to see if there were any stones left, and drew blood for a full blood panel. We started her on panacur for the pinworms and waited for the blood work to come back. The vet said her urate stones were probably caused by dehyration and that i should continue soaking her every other day to keep up her hydration. I steralized her tank before putting her back in. And continued soaking her.

Close to two weeks later i hadn't seen a fecal movement again. I brought her back in to the hospital and we took more xrays. The doctor couldnt see anything and said that quite frankly, she was stumped. She sent me to NH to see Dr. Guerrino, who has been working with exotics for years. Dr. Guerrino looked at her and said she looked awesome, my husbandry was great, and that upon palpation her colon didn't even feel too full. He looked at her blood work and saw slightly elevated calcium levels, and a slightly elevated WBC count. He said the calcium levels could easily be from the dehydration at the time of the blood draw. He advised me to not worry, and continue feeding her as normal. He attributed her lack of defecation to a reproductive cycle that had caused her to produce follicles and then reabsorb them. He did, however, tell me if she wasn't defecating normally in two weeks to call him back and we would run her on a course of antibiotics, in case the elevated WBC count meant there was a small internal infection.

I felt much better upon leaving the vet in NH, and two days later Hanny passed a small bowel movement. I ran another fecal which showed the panacur had worked and the pinworms were gone. But we did see some coccidia (aprox 1 oocyst per 3-4feilds under 40x). I called Dr. Guerrino and he wanted to treat her with Albon (which is essentially an antibiotic). I was hesitant to treat since all my reading had stated to not treat coccidia unless the levels were higher. I was worried though, that the stress of all she had been through recently was causing the coccidia to get the upper hand and multiply, maybe we were just seeing the begining of a superinfection and i should treat after all? I decided to wait and see how she did, and test her next fecal to see if the coccidia levels appeared to be rising.

Well, it had been about 1 week, maybe 1 1/2, and today i saw another small bowel movement. Unfortunately the clinic is closed and i wont be able to test it till monday, so im not even sure if it will be any good by then?

I did order some parazap and have started her on 3cc of parazap twice a day for two weeks, hoping this will give her a boost and lower the coccidia levels if they have risen.

What i am toying with though, is wether i should treat with antibiotics or not? She is on parazap, so i would think if i was going to do it now would be the best time as the parazap works sort of like a probiotic, from what i understand. As of now i have tentatively decided to send out some more bloodwork to see where the WBC count is now. If it is elevated at all, i am thinking of going with dr. guerrinos adive and doing some antibiotics (probably ceftazadime) for three weeks. and keeping her on the Parazap at the same time.

Im really worried because she is still not going regularly, and the few times she has gone its been very small comparitively. And the urates still appear to be pretty solid, which im not sure why that is because she is very well hydrated right now.

My questions for you all are....

1. What would you do in this sitation?
2. Should i treat with albon for the coccidia, or should the parazap be good enough to lower the levels, and instead run Ceftazadime for a potential infection?
3. Will my fecal sample be useless by monday if its kept refridgerated?
4. How solid are your beardies urates? Im wondering if Hannys are still too hard or if i am just being paranoid. Hers are firm, but crumble like chaulk when they are squeezed?

Sory this was so long, but i am hoping for the best advice possible here.

Thanks

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0.1 Bearded dragon
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake
1.1 Leopard Gecko's
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn
0.1 Anerythristic Corn
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Replies (9)

waldo Jul 09, 2005 04:32 PM

I really don't think you have anything to worry about with the coccidia, at least not right now. Also the dry crumbly urates can be caused by a higher calcuim level. I would focus on the WBC count first, if she is doing ok then wait a week or two and then have some blood drawn, if the WBC is still high then go ahead and treat with the antibiotic. Parazap is not the same as probiotics, it is a natural wormer and probiotics are healthy gut bacteria. After the antibiotic treatment you can put her on Parazap and probiotics.

Her stool sample should be ok as long as it doesn't dry out.

I would also look at changing her diet, do you feed her silkworms? maybe try them to help her poop more, works for my guy. He also is having a dry urate problem, I found out I was giving to much calcium and that was causing him to have dry crumbly urates,now that I've cut the calcimu down he is starting to have regular urates,soft and squishy.

Once you get her back on track then go ahead and treat the coccidia, you can try the parazap but I don't know if it will be enough, you might have to go with stronger meds.

AlteredMind99 Jul 10, 2005 02:27 PM

I could definately try the silkworms, i was thinking of ordering some and starting a colony anyway. The only problem is everyone says they need to be fed twice a day, and pretty often i cant make it to my house twice a day with my work schedual...
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0.1 Bearded dragon
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake
1.1 Leopard Gecko's
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn
0.1 Anerythristic Corn
0.0.1 Red Tegu
0.1 Bullmastiff
4.1 Cats

bleedthefreak Jul 10, 2005 10:46 PM

I would still continue to use the parazap...it's definitely not hurting anything. At least use it until you find out more. You can use Acidopholiz. If you can't find or order any...pick up some Pedialyte from the store, it is a probiotic.
Also...I only feed my silkies once a day. I've done this for several months and they seem to be doing just fine. I was itimidated about using silkworms at first, but as long as you keep them clean, dry and fed, they are fine.
Poor Hanny Give her a beard rub for me!
-Nicky
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Rapid brown avoid clear blue
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Be this way
Flowers watched through wide brown eyes
A child sings an unclaimed tune
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AlteredMind99 Jul 11, 2005 11:53 AM

Pedialyte is a probiotic?? I didn't know that.

Hopw do you give the acodophaliz(sp?) to them...is it a powder on the food?
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0.1 Bearded dragon
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake
1.1 Leopard Gecko's
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn
0.1 Anerythristic Corn
0.0.1 Red Tegu
0.1 Bullmastiff
4.1 Cats

sdaly Jul 09, 2005 05:51 PM

I also work in a vet hosp that sees reptiles and I agree with too much calcium can cause problems.

The other thing I would look into have done is an ultrasound if possible. I had a Beardie that was not having regular BM's and she went downhill pretty fast so I euthanized her and when we did the necropsy we found that she had a tumor in some portion of the reproductive tract that was spreading to other organs. I wasn't an obvious tumor upon palpation (it felt like the size of a small grape near the colon) we thought it was stool for a little while, but it had spread from the reproductive tract and attached itself to part of the colon and had taken over her ovaries.

I don't want to freak you out (and I hope I havent), but if you have access to an ultra sound I would have that done to see if there is something there that your Dr. is not seeing on the x-rays.

Good luck and hope all goes well,
sdaly

lele Jul 09, 2005 06:32 PM

I certainly do not have the bd experience that others here do, so I will not pretend to know much. But, while I was reading your post the Ca and firm urates did jump out at me. Darwin's are very soft and runny. He eats mainly silkies, crickets and veggies. What I can add is that Dr. Guerino is my vet and is a good guy. He has not met Darwin yet, but knew my veiled chameleon, Luna, very well. She died a week ago on the way in to see him. He is one of few ARAV vets around here. Luna had LOTS of Ca balance and reproductive issues and he was always so good with her - and me. He can tell you how obsessive I am about my herps and he was truly sad when he saw her on Saturday - dead. He did the necropsy that evening.

I do not know if this is even an option, but he gave her calcitonin to help get her Ca back on track after her last clutch (or right before - here history is long!) I know it can be tricky if the blood calcium is not high enough so your cham may not actually warrant this. I do agree with sdaly re: ultrasound.

Hope this helps and tell Dr. G that you know Luna's mom (well sort of know me ) Oh, also Dr. G's practice is open all weekend if you want to get the fecal done while fresh.

lele
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AlteredMind99 Jul 10, 2005 02:30 PM

When dr. guerrino saw the blood work he said her blood calcium levels were ok, slightly high but not much, that was one of the other things i was going to recheck with more bloodwork. At the time of her first blood draw she was a little dehydrated, which could have make the Ca level higher. He said her bone density was perfect though, but i will definately recheck the blood calcium.

Maybe if the WBC count is normal, or if it is still elevated and we run anti-biotics but she doesnt appear better we can try an ultrasound...Does Dr. Guerrino do them?

What is a good probiotic to use and what would the dosage be for an adult BD?
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0.1 Bearded dragon
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake
1.1 Leopard Gecko's
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn
0.1 Anerythristic Corn
0.0.1 Red Tegu
0.1 Bullmastiff
4.1 Cats

AlteredMind99 Jul 10, 2005 03:30 PM

Also, should i stop using the parazap altogether for now? And just wait for the blood results and do antibiotics and a probiotic?
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0.1 Bearded dragon
0.1 mexican Black kingsnake
1.1 Leopard Gecko's
0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn
0.1 Anerythristic Corn
0.0.1 Red Tegu
0.1 Bullmastiff
4.1 Cats

sdaly Jul 10, 2005 11:10 PM

We have a probiotic gel at work called Probiocin. The other thing we recommend for a probiotic is live cultured yogurt (which most, if not all yogurt is). All that is going to do is put back the gut flora that may be missing or is being stripped away by the antibiotics. For an adult Beardie you could probaly just use 1cc of yogurt once daily if you are giving the antibiotics once daily. If you go with the medicated gel, then it tells you exactly how much to give per body weight.

Hope this helps,
sdaly

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