Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Let me make my point a little more clearly....

I keep snakes. I have some alterna. I have never let an alterna go and, to be honest, I will have a hard time doing that until I have found a few more,..maybe. If I find another female in Crockett county, I will have to really think twice about taking it. I'm getting to the point (notice, I didn't say growing out of) where I am tired of caring for all of my animals. Mind you, this goes in cycles for me every few years. I will probably cut back significantly all of my CB animals and then slowly it will creep back up again.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I found 20 alterna (or 10) on one road in one year I would let most of them go. I guess the difference is really one of threshold.

However, I do believe that we, as the consumers of this wildlife resource have to consume it responsibly. I've lived in and spent many, many weeks in the farthest reaches of the Trans-Pecos (as have many here) and I am fully aware that collecting alterna off roads has no significant impact on the populations of the species as a whole, and probably not even the population of snakes along 277 or 90.

What concerns me is the perception. There are many "less informed" people that would look at the fact that someone collected 20 alterna in one season from one stretch of road and wonder
1. how such a harvest could be sustainable? (yes, I know it was uncharacteristically good luck)
2. why such a harvest was legal?
3. why anyone would need 20 alterna from one locale for themselves?

And when you consider the economic value of cb 277 alterna, I actually wonder the last thing myself.

Am I saying that someone shouldn't have 20, 30, 100 alterna in a captive collection? No, of course not. I just don't think that a person should harvest that many from a single area in one year. Is it biologically significant? Probably not, but in the eye of public perception it sure is.

And in truth, I agree with Troy, Brad, and Joe. I just think that we should police ourselves so that others don't feel the need to do it for us. I think it is my responsibility as a fellow herper/hobbyist to politely ask "what the hell are you doing taking 20 off one road?". If I don't ask, someone else will.

As I look on Glades colubrid list today I see two WC langtry alterna listed at $125 each (along with the longnoses, "west texas" bullsnakes, Hypsiglena, trans-pecos rats, kennerlyi, Gyalopion, etc, that they have). That isn't responsible consumption, IMHO.
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Chris Harrison
Does anyone else here think that these scrolling signature lines are stupid?

Until now, no one has mentioned public perception or opinion. But, who is the public beyond this particular interest group? Does the public really care whether a person takes 5 from the river, 5 from Alpine, 5 from Sanderson, 5 from Langtry, or 20 from Langtry in a given year? Just curious. I didn't have to worry about that perception until this year

Robert

Chrish,

I could not agree with you more and well said. I'm not one to give a lecture about collecting as I've done my share. For years I would collect every alterna I found. The most was 12 in a 13 night run back in 94. To date I'm right around 25 alterna under my belt with the last four released. Two of those were in Mexico and I had no choice. I still go to Texas about every other year and it's just for the "rush" of finding a alterna but, not to collect. A good pic is enough for me now. I have all the alterna I want in my collection and just because I found another one doesn't mean I have to take it. If one dies in my collection, I replace it with a captive bred snake now. There's a good variety out there now to pick from and they're cheap! For myself, this is "growing up" and we all have our different views of what grown up is. Everyone of those is fine. "To each their own" and I really don't give a crap about what anyone else does. What I don't understand is why people hunt the same road(s) year after year and find the same snake (Many are ugly snakes that have a undesirable look to them. Any breeder working on "good looking" gene selection would not want to mix these rank looking snakes to their colony. The buying public doesn't want it either.) and have to take it no matter what. I don't look down at anyone that does it. I guess I would like to see more adventurous herpers that try herping new or less hunted areas and see what else is out there. I know there are a small few. There's alot to still be learned on the range of alterna. Many of "us" should try and see what is else is out there. That's what I'm trying to do and I still will continue to leave what I found in the field.

Paul Lynum

I can tell you exactly why people hunt certain areas. It's because they feel that they have the best chance of finding one in those areas. Also, some people feel that there are no "ugly" alterna. The reason for this is because they are just happy to find one and when they do it's looks don't come into play. Plus, some nice alterna have been produced from breeding "ugly" ones.
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Steve W.

I'm not keeping any ugly 277s, but until I get a nice adult male with more than a 1/4" of tail, I'm going back LOL

As for the rest . . . I simply enjoy hunting the Gap & River Road (both of which the wardens have finally admitted are legal to hunt!) more than any other roads in TX (when the weather is right).

Basically, its not all about finding new snakes or new populations, but rather about having a good time in a place you enjoy. I occassionally go hunt 54 or 2185 north of Van Horn, have hunted the Indian Hot Springs road, and have produced distributional records for NE Terrell Co (Sheffield area), but a lot of these edge or range roads are really "marginal" for alterna (e.g. 2185 is great for subocs and splendida, but marginal for alterna) whereas the River is 13 miles of exceptional habitat for lots of different species and simply a damn fun road to cruise.

Troy

Troy,

I hear you. There many places I go to (All over the southwest) just about every year (Not this year lol) because I enjoy them so much and not collect. Some places I herp are strickly for collecting as I want a particular animal(s) for my collection. Some places are new to me and I want to find a target animal (Like many of the alterna) but, in almost most cases not collect. We are all different and there's nothing wrong with that. Two points I was trying to make was "mixing it up a little more" out in the field locality wise and I would like to see more alterna releashed from some of the more popular locality spots because there is really no reason to do so. I know and agree that collecting alterna from any road does not hurt them and I am 100% for it. I just don't quite understand why someone who already has many 277 animals keep taking ALL 277 animals that they find even though they know they don't want it and keep going back and repeating the same thing. Again, I'm not attacking anyone on this matter and I really don't care what anyone does. To me there is no reason to collect evey alterna found just because it's an alterna. But, that's just me and my deal and I respect everyone else's.

Swwit,

I can understand the "not an ugly alterna" thing. The first one I found was a black on black blairs and she was the best looking snake I had every found at that moment. Believe me I understand. Like I said; "To each their own".

PL

one was actually picking up animals ( in this case alterna ). I keep bringing up some folks of past without naming names and mean no harm, no ill-feelings or anything along any lines related to the latter. But I have known people that go down and are somewhat of a icon > ? to the alterna multiple finding group that when they don't find one in a trip, you can sure tell that they are depressed about it ! LOL ! I have learned a long time ago, as well as others I'm sure, that even if you see NO herps at all, it still my venue of the country of loving the area and the s-l-o-w down of fast pace society. I have also noticed that many collectors, and myself now, that use to ( how to put this without stepping on toes here or someone take this wrong ) might of collected >? more than was necessary >? multiple species for whatever reason >? are more into picture taking these days. And to meet up with past folks whether they are herpers are business owners or even making their homes down there.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Chris, I too thank you for the clarification.

***A quick note: There is no negative undertone or attitude in this message.

My opinion of public perception is pretty low. If referring to my friends, fellow herpers and family, well that's a different story. Their perception means a lot to me. But if some Joe Shmuck (not you forky LOL) wishes to think inappropriately of what I'm doing based on their emotions, or think that what I am doing is "bad", again based on an emotional response, then they can kiss it. I am not going to base my joy of this hobby on what public perception is. Now I know someone or even you might want to say it will only hurt us in the long run, we need the public on our side. Well, it just doesn't work that way. If you're not in the hobby then you don't understand the passion (for the most part). So, the general public is never going to understand regardless, and to many of them, any snake taken at all is a crime.

Where do we draw the line? It seems to me that the law is a pretty good place to draw it (though they do make it tough in some areas). I'm not saying that your point is not worthy of mentioning. I just don't want my love of herping to be dictated by public perception. And even if it isn’t, I don't want to feel like it has to be.

It’s really none of our business what another person does with their legal take. I know I wouldn’t want to have someone making me feel guilty for my legal take. And yes, I do realize that it was not your goal to do so. You were just making a point. I’m not saying there is anything right or wrong about what you have said in this thread or the other. Like I said before, just flipping the coin.

Would I take 10 from one road? Extremely unlikely, but that’s you and I.

Best regards,

Brad Alexander

John Q. Public - the 50% or more who don't care one way or the other (but who think that snake lovers & keepers are strange)

The "Only good snake is a Dead Snake" Public - the 35-40% (depending on the area) who don't care, so long as you take every one that you find

or

The Bunny Hugger Public - the remainder who think that every living thing deserves to live in peace and harmony, akunamatata, circle of life, bambi, and the rest of Walt Disney's pipe dreams about what nature it really like? Although these guys do have a loud voice . . .

Fortunately, for those of us who live in Texas, TPWD is a proponent of wildlife management, and asked the question "is the take biologically meaningful" and answered it with "not according to the evidence at hand" . . . several of us that sat in on those advisory meetings a few years back made sure they asked the right questions, too . . . so part of what I'm saying is that rather than worry about what the public might think, one way to get around it is to get your foot in the door with the decision makers and participate in the decision making. TPWD was rather surprised at the outpouring of comments from the snake community the last time around, too.

Troy

>>Fortunately, for those of us who live in Texas, TPWD is a proponent of wildlife management, and asked the question "is the take biologically meaningful" and answered it with "not according to the evidence at hand" . . . several of us that sat in on those advisory meetings a few years back made sure they asked the right questions, too . . . so part of what I'm saying is that rather than worry about what the public might think, one way to get around it is to get your foot in the door with the decision makers and participate in the decision making. TPWD was rather surprised at the outpouring of comments from the snake community the last time around, too.

And I'm grateful for this. The very LAST thing I want to see is our priveledge of limited take revoked. We Texans are fortunate in that way especially when compared to some other states. Our 10 of any one species and 25 in aggregate is very acceptable, or almost even generous when compared to CA, or AZ.

the 10 of one species/25 in aggregate only applies to those species which TX continues to monitor - and alterna is not one of those species (only rattlesnakes, the sliders, box turtles, and a few lizards that are collected in large numbers by a single El Paso collector). For those listed species, you have to continue to have nongame collector permits and file annual reports (IF you collect/possess more than the above numbers) but for most species (e.g. alterna, subocs, bairdi, etc) you can have as many as you want, with no permit necessary (save your hunting license) and no reports to file.

If you want to keep lepidus, and you have fewer than 10, you're fine . . . but if you sell one (or have more than 10), you have to file reports and have a permit.

Troy

Good point to make. I am also glad to see you bring up the issue of how TPWD has change over the years.

Troy, please post the site you produced with the letter about the road hunting. I would like to take a copy with me when I am out. Thanks.

Someone else also mentioned about Glades advertising snakes for sale. It might be very important to point out that snakes out of the wild are always going to be necessary. There are alot of people who will never be able to go and actually collect their own animals. I know that there are enough people breeding alterna that there should be a surplus of animals for sale. There are still those that want local specific, and want new blood. There are not many people breeding long nose or night snakes for obvious reasons but there are still people who want to have one who cannot or will not expend the money to travel from NY to Texas to capture one. Also if it were not for the collector and the sale of animals to others who cannot capture there own, where would we be even with alterna? The people who do stand on this soap box also appear to be hypocritical as the question arises -- What are they doing with the animals they produce???? Selling them????? Or are they keeping them forever. Surely they are not returning and letting them go. Nothing better than self righteousness.

ET