Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It's kind of funny how Jim Harrison attacks the integrity of the private venomous keeper. I personally know at least two dozen private collectors who have maintained a venomous collection for many years without ever sustaining a bite. I have never been bitten either. On the other hand, I know eleven "professional" herpetologists and "zoo" owners who have been bitten on at least five occasions. Jim Harrison, a "professional", has been envenomated fifteen times. He died and had to be revived on three occasions. If you have ever seen his hands, you will notice that he is missing some of his fingers. I guess he just never learns. Some "professionals" like Mr Harrison give the rest of us keepers a bad reputation. Some one should ban Jim Harrison from owning venomous reptiles. He has repeatedly proven himself incapable of owning a venomous collection. Mr Harrison thinks that all keepers are as irresponsible as he is, that's why he pushed the ban. Sorry Jim, but very few keepers have such a poor track record as yours. And for any of you who wish to post a response in defense of Mr Harrison, keep in mind that I have never met a single private collector who has been bitten, all of them having their collections for many years. But I know plenty of "professionals" who have very poor records concerning the keeping of venomous reptiles.

"Save Jim Harrison, ban him from owning venomous reptiles"

Remember who helped ban exotics and then ban them or boycott them.
Then they will not have any friends in the reptile world that will hurt somewhat.
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Bud

Mike,
I didn't read anywhere that Mr. Harrison "attacked" the integrity of private venomous keepers.

Regarding the number of times Mr. Harrison has been envenomated,I would think that it goes with the territory.
That has nothing to do with a "poor" track record and should be dismissed as such. When you extract from thousands of venomous reptiles, you are bound to be bitten a few times.
I see you didn't mention Bill Haast or others.

I have been bitten and it was by my mistake. I am a private collector and a zoo keeper. I have been husbanding venomous reptiles for over 35 years. I know the risks and I know accidents happen. Surely you don't think Mr. Harrison was bitten on purpose?

You may not have met a single private collector who has been envenomated, but that only proves that you haven't met very many private collectors. While not defending Mr. Harrisons pro/con stance on the private sector owning venomous snakes, I am defending his right to keep working with them.

By your statement that someone should "ban" Mr. Harrison from keeping venomous snakes, that is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.

You want to call for a "ban" on Mr. Harrison, (because you think he is giving the venomous community a bad name) yet, you want to be allowed to keep yours! Your post reeks of a personal grudge of Mr. Harrison, but for those who reads between the lines really see that this is "do as I say, not do as I do"

I hope this opens up more discussions on keeping venomous snakes in the private sector. We should be proactive and in solidarity, instead of singling out people we do not like within the venomous community.

Randal Berry

Well Randall,

Imagine if Mr Harrison were a gun collector. Now imagine if Mr Harrison had accidentally shot himself on 15 seperate occasions. Now imagine Mr Harrison deciding that guns are way too dangerous and then pushing a ban on all guns. Now imagine Mr Harrison wanting the ban to apply to every one except himself. A bit of irony, don't you think?

I also know people who do venom research. Some have been milking snakes and extracting venom from them for over two decades. None of them have ever been bitten. And I will disagree with you that eventually a bite will occur if you handle enough venomous snakes. Unfortunately, I have seen many "professionals" handle snakes with very little safety in mind. It seems that the more "professional" some of these guys get, the less respect they have for the business end of the snake. I know lots of people who have frequently handled venomous reptiles over many years, but I have never met one who has been bitten 15 times. I have kept many thousands of venomous reptiles over the years and I have never been bitten. Nor have I ever even had a close call. I give the snakes the respect they deserve. Have you ever seen how Mr Harrison conducts himself around these snakes? If not, you should. It does not suprise me that he has gotten bitten 15 times. It's expected when some one does not use the proper equipment when picking up a snake. Or when you try to catch mojave rattlesnakes in the dark, barefooted none the less. Mr Harrison's bad habits are the reason he has been bitten so many times. He should not assume that all keepers share his irresponsible behaviors. He should not cast judgement on the herping community based on his own bad experiences. He should either learn to respect these snakes more and use proper handling techniques or just give it up all together. One thing is for sure, Mr Harrison has proven that he definitely fits into that small percentage of keepers who should not be allowed to own venomous reptiles. You can defend him all you want, but his 15 bites speaks for itself.

I sense that some people like to take shots at other folks who have been very successful making a great career in the herp business simply because they envy those people. Like Jim, I created a "job" as a professional herpetologist because that is what my passion is and I still cannot believe that I do what I do and get paid quite well for it (somehow, working with venomous on an every day basis was not something I ever dreamed I could make a career out of but I did and it only came from MANY years of hard work, sacrifice, perseverence, and a lot of help from the good Lord).

Jim Harrison, like me, takes what he does very seriously as a professional herp person. His track record is actually quite good and I know he runs an incredible facility. He has rights to speak his mind just like you and everyone else (just like you have every right to say what you did in your opening statement and I have a right to respond). You, as a private collector, probably don't get calls at all hours of the day like Jim and I do to respond to some irresponsible owner who is either keeping hot stuff illegally, irresponsibly, or, getting bitten and needing to gut your entire antivenin supply (I HAVE). After a while, it becomes very easy to simply say that most people should not keep venomous herps; period. Until you have lived on that side of the ballfield, you really cannot understand (and if you have, then I am mystified by your comments). Do I agree with everything Jim has stated? Perhaps not but I fully understand his reasoning. I do support private ownership rights to keep venomous herps but ONLY with some very stringent guidelines in place and as of now, I don't see that happening....if it can, then I am all in favor as I do know of many private individuals who do a heck of a good job at maintaining safe collections. To blast professionals, well, I couldn't disagree with you more and rather than getting into a pissy match over the internet, I would be happy to discuss this off the forum.

As I have said before, "we" (private hobbyists) have no one to blame but ourselves. You don't have to look far to know where I am coming from....its on the forum, the advertisements, various shows/swaps, newspapers, etc. Hopefully, we can find a way to allow the good people to keep venomous; that's my primary concern as I have the utmost of respect for some of these people and they have mentored me quite a bit when I was younger and learning the ropes and they should be allowed, through some system, to continue to do what they enjoy.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Well Randall,
>>
>>Imagine if Mr Harrison were a gun collector. Now imagine if Mr Harrison had accidentally shot himself on 15 seperate occasions. Now imagine Mr Harrison deciding that guns are way too dangerous and then pushing a ban on all guns. Now imagine Mr Harrison wanting the ban to apply to every one except himself. A bit of irony, don't you think?
>>
>>
>>I also know people who do venom research. Some have been milking snakes and extracting venom from them for over two decades. None of them have ever been bitten. And I will disagree with you that eventually a bite will occur if you handle enough venomous snakes. Unfortunately, I have seen many "professionals" handle snakes with very little safety in mind. It seems that the more "professional" some of these guys get, the less respect they have for the business end of the snake. I know lots of people who have frequently handled venomous reptiles over many years, but I have never met one who has been bitten 15 times. I have kept many thousands of venomous reptiles over the years and I have never been bitten. Nor have I ever even had a close call. I give the snakes the respect they deserve. Have you ever seen how Mr Harrison conducts himself around these snakes? If not, you should. It does not suprise me that he has gotten bitten 15 times. It's expected when some one does not use the proper equipment when picking up a snake. Or when you try to catch mojave rattlesnakes in the dark, barefooted none the less. Mr Harrison's bad habits are the reason he has been bitten so many times. He should not assume that all keepers share his irresponsible behaviors. He should not cast judgement on the herping community based on his own bad experiences. He should either learn to respect these snakes more and use proper handling techniques or just give it up all together. One thing is for sure, Mr Harrison has proven that he definitely fits into that small percentage of keepers who should not be allowed to own venomous reptiles. You can defend him all you want, but his 15 bites speaks for itself.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I am going to have to agree. Personally, Jim Harrison, being considered a professional will not be bound by the rules that private keepers are. I am not defending Mr. Harrison's handling techniques nor am I defending his position on the ban. But a curator at a reptile zoo/facility will be less likely to hit the front page in the event of a bite. If a private keeper gets' nailed, channel 10 is going to have a news camera glued to your right @$$ cheek.

You personally have never been bitten, and that is great. Jim Harrison no matter "cocky" he might seem on TV or anywhere else (not that I am personally impressed with him), he will be regarded as a "professional". You and I are regarded as morons with a deathwish by the general public. Jim Harrison's handling actions are not causing our lawmakers to pass these laws, it is US. I find it amazing that you dont realize that.

Each time a private keepers get's nailed, it's another strike against us. If a zookeeper gets nailed, it's because he just screwed up. If a private keeper gets nailed, it is viewed becuase he was a moron that just had to business keeping this animal.

As far as the jealousy factor of things, I personally envy those who have achieved the things that Mr. Carmichael and Jim Harrison have achieved. These are achievements that most likely I will never get the chance to experience no matter how hard I try.

I choose not to keep venomous for a couple reasons:
- I am not as skilled as those in this forum are
- They are illegal in my place of residence
- I cannot afford antivenin if I get nailed

I feel that by me keeping these animals I would be further endangering the reptile hobby that I love so much, thus keeping me from any future possibilities of working with the animals that you guys get to work with regularly. The factors above endanger this hobby FAR more than any of Jim Harrison's actions or any other "professional" for that matter.

JMO

chris

Excellent post Chris!

his "handling" practices are FAR from safe. I would venture a guess and say that many of those bites could have prevented.

He milks snakes, which is different than merely keeping them.

The gun analogy would work if perhaps he was a gun or ammo tester or something and you were counting how many times the gun exploded after firing off however many thousand rounds.

Ian

Granted I also ripped Mr.Harrison for his National Geographic dump he took on us on National TV. How ever Mr Harrison is a venom producer, he has his hands on hundreds of hot snakes every single day. So to compare his risk to a breeders is a reach.
HorridumAngeli
HorridumAngeli's Beaded Lizard Web Site

the difference is RESPONSIBLY participating in the profession/hobby. Antivenom is what it is all about, he stocks his own..do you?

I've read some stupid things on these forum but this takes the cake.

Try milking 500 snakes a week and see how many bites you rack up in the time Jim has been running a venom lab.

I refuse to be drawn into further stupidity by participating in this discussion. Rob and others have said all that needs to be said. See below

Al
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"Fighting on the forums is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded."

DH June 2005

np

I really like to stay off these incredibly stupid threads since I think they get too long and take away from any point to the forum.

But here we go.

Lets compare snakes to guns again. I don't think it has been done enough lately. If Jim Harrison had shot himself as many times as he had been bitten it would be amazing. But what would be more amazing is a gun that repeatedly keeps aiming itself at you. Lets also look at how accidents happen with guns. Not planned shootings, but accidents. People use alcohol, people forget to lock cases and children get in, misfires, and not thinking it was loaded. Jim Harrison does not work while intoxicated (excluding intoxication by snake), people have not gotten in and been bitten by his snakes, an escape has not caused a death (which snakes can do and guns cant), a snake has never "misfired" or has he been bitten not thinking the snake was "loaded". Snakes bite, it happens. When you find yourself doing one of the most dangerous jobs with snakes...there is a good chance it will happen.

Lets use some common sense here. People are killed in dangerous jobs every day. I cannot think of many thing more dangerous than milking snakes. Perhaps toll booth operators. I would rather thank Jim Harrison for putting his neck on the line to provide venom for AV. I really doubt he was using "poor" handling practices for the fun of being bitten. But if he was and he wants to go through the pain of a viper bite and use up his AV...thats fine with me. It would be a problem if it was MY AV. hhmmmm....see where I am going with this?

I know everyone making these comments about National Geographic and Jim Harrison knows more than anyone in the world about snakes and you would never do anything anyone would find questionable yourself. Thats why I read these posts. I get to learn how wrong every professional is and how right people on the internet are. Thank you for showing me these things to help make my opinions about the TV and the Kentucky Reptile Zoo. I would have never been able to see things I didnt like on my own.

But now that I am starting to join the immaturity of contributing to an argument on the internet. I will stop.

If things were my way (since this is the thread topic right?)...everyone would be doing their part to get public appreciation for these incredible animals and they would be acting responsible with their own animals. And if everything was my way there would be no laws at all...NONE. We would not need laws because bullets would not hit people, idiots would not work with animals, scientific names would be easier to say so we would not need 50 common names for each animal, healthy food would taste better, and I would not have spilled miso soup on myself at lunch today.

Enough with the Harrison bashing, I'm not supporting or admonishing him being that I know little of him. I will say that bashing a single man and not addressing some of the other reasons why hots are getting banned makes you guys look like fools.

Hot keepers like yourself need to realize that the rights to your hobby in the eyes of lawmakers take a backseat when compared with other more prominant issues. Look at political ads, not one of them concerns your hobby simply because your hobby is not pivotal like that of stem cell research, abortion, or gay marriage. The majority of the public does not care about a very small handfull of private hot keepers. Further more you need to realize that many people have a huge fear or snakes. Who is a lawmaker going to listen too, a mother who is frightened for her children's safety because the neighbor happens to keep half a dozen hots without AV next door, or the actual hot owner argueing that it is his/her right to own them? If I was the lawmaker I would side with the mother, especially considering the private keeping of hots probably doesn't benefit society as a whole- like Harrison's AV does. Catch my drift.

Also you should ask people what image they generate when the word viper is mentioned. Chances are it is a viper with it's mouth open and it's fangs extended rather than an Atheris resting a branch or a Crotalus sunning itself miles away from any civilization. A buzzing rattlesnake is what comes to mind, not it's natural state. Again catch my drift?

So please thank a little deeper before posting garbage.

For your viewing enjoyment, a Crotalus viridis viridis.

I agree with you on the importance of public opinion regarding this topic, but I think that the reasoning behind full bans is unfounded. The private keepers who are irresponsible are not going to abide by these laws anyway. They will probably never get caught unless they get bitten, and even then, they will probably lie about it and say that it happened in a natural setting. The responsible law abiding keeper will regretfully forfeit his hobby and follow the changes in the law. So, who do these bans really affect?

As for safety issues, I personally know a herpetologist who was envenomated two years ago by a Naja n.kaouthia. I will not mention his name here, but I am sure that some of you know who I am talking about. Three weeks ago, I was visiting his home and watched as he free handled the exact same snake. When I voiced my concern, he stated that he was a professional and now had antivenom for the snake. I believe that some keepers, and notice that I said some, become too relaxed around their animals due to the knowledge that they have antivenom readily available. I also know a keeper who has a zoological permit and a very large collection of venomous. He has been envenomated seven times in fifteen years. I have seen him repeatedly place his hand into an enclosure to retrieve water bowls etc..., being only inches away from the head of the snake. He stated that after the first three bites, he was not as afraid of being bitten. These guys are considered by many to be professionals. I have seen many more keepers, both pro and private, violate simple safety precautions. But I think that it is ironic that both of these guys have stated that they believe that private keepers are not responsible enough to own venomous reptiles. That's some strange statements made by people who continually throw caution to the side.

I contacted five universities who do venom research and conduct regular milkings, and asked if they would provide me with statistics showing how many people at their facility had been accidentally envenomated over the years. Only two responded back to me. One claimed that they had incurred three bites since 1988. The other claimed only one bite since 1992. Both stated that they conduct numerous extractions per week. Those seem to be relatively low bite numbers. I am still in the process of attempting to compile some more statistice.

Irresponsible behavior comes from both sides of the herp world. Like several of you, I also do rescues. I have also seen bad behavior from private collectors as well. Once I was called to the home of a man who had been evicted and had abandoned a few venomous snakes. I was shocked at one particular cage. It was a twenty gallon long tank that had only screen covering it, held down by duct tape. Inside was a two foot gaboon viper. That snake could have easily crawled out if the tape had come loose. I know that duct tape is a cure all and fix all for a lot of different things, but that's where it crosses the line.

I seem to remember a few posters here who were bashing away at Sean Palmer recently for posting his opinions regarding the banning of venomous. And he was simply addressing the issue. He is also very well respected among the herp community. His post did not contain one single negative remark. Over the last couple of years, I have seen some of these same people bashing away at whom ever does not fully agree with their views. When I originally posted about Mr Harrison, I admit to bashing his idealogy behind him pushing for a complete venomous ban. After contacting venom researchers who conduct the same amount of milkings as Mr Harrison, and realizing that they have way less accidents than him in as many years, I have to question his extraction ethics. Also, several people conduct these milkings at the universities, thus it should technically increase the chances of a bite. Mr Harrison's bite numbers seem a bit too high as compared to others. That is why I don't understand how he feels that he has a reason to judge the safety of others. You guys should use more restraint when rsponding to posts on here. A person, who I would rather not name, had recently posted an ad on a different site asking for help locating a few hard to find species of crotalids. I legally keep and breed all the species he listed and many more. My wife and I decided that we would donate some specimens to him, as we do to other private and public institutions. After I read his posts bashing away at Sean Palmer, I quickly changed my mind. It's much better to keep the "peace" than to keep the "pieces"....

v. viridus a Saskatchewan locality? I find that they are darker than those found in Alberta. More than likely it's from the states, but I'd have no clue as I am not familiar with american viridus.

That viridis was found in the black hills of south dakota.

I just wanted to mention that Jim lost his fingers/tips while lifting weights, when the bar fell across his fingers. He did not lose them due to being envenomated.