Reptile & Amphibian Forums

is that there are so many people yelling about "Rights This" and "Rights That", but yet noone seems to want to agree on a resolution. We cant' even agree as to whether these are rights or privileges that we have. I would have to say, that if we really want to save our hobby we need to stop bashing other herpers as well as each other within this forum. It's not going to help anything. You are only further breaking the hobby apart to further annihilate (spelling?) it.

If you are so concerned about this hobby here is my recommendation:
- Stop bickering like a child at every small thing that you dont like.
- Start thinking of possible SOLUTION (hhmm, solution? Never thought of that?!?) to these problems that the hobby has.
- No matter what you are interested in, this hobby is going to have a number of morons, start educating so we will hopefully have less.
- Gain agreement in a positive manner with your fellow herpers of the problem and the solutions- The more we bicker among ourselves, the more problems we will have. Be respectful of each others' opinions and join together.

I am tired of seeing our hobby being flushed down the toilet! It's time that we clog that damn toilet and rise back up to the top!! (lol..dont ask where the hell I came up with that)

Seriously, until we get together start banning together and trying our best to better our hobby, I dont see things getting any better. We need to start praising the news articles that help us, and bash the ones that dont. Education of the public (as usual) and trying to find better safety procedures so that we dont get made out to be fools by the public and government.

Hopefully all will go better!

Best Wishes to all,

Chris

Chris...

I'm sorry to say it will never happen, too many jerks that think they know it all but really don't have a clue.

Al
-----
"Fighting on the forums is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded."

DH June 2005

This hobby really has always been filled with morons. The swap meet predates the educational faciltiy.

At least I can say it is making the economy look better if every moron has a computer and kingsnake.com can afford to advertise enough to get all of them here.

I have actually gone to reptile shows where people cannot identify snakes they are selling. Very nice people...just makes you wonder.

I think the ball python breeders have it figured out.

Okay, I'm a lurker without venomous but had to chip in.
Think of recycling. Many people don't, some do, but landfills are still filling up and countless resources are wasted. That doesn't mean that those who do recycle should give up and stop, and those that don't shouldn't start.

Fighting tooth and nail for a flawless victory is a doomed strategey from the get-go. As is running around in circles biting various noses on a certain forum. But by doing a little damage control in our communities, such as talks, presentations, general chatting with people in pet stores, writing to give hell or compliment articles, etc, we can make people a little less likely to panic, and a little more likely to think. Decreasing the general lean towards herd mentality, not only benefits the hobby in general, but helps the friggin world in general! (and probably saves a snake or two from languishing in an unheated enclosure or getting hacked apart by a gardening tool.)

It doesn't have to be a fierce crusade. Just talking to one person and reassuring them that a rattlesnake can't and doesn't coil up to spring many times their length in an attack, can allay that person's fear for life, and help them start to think of reptiles as the simple, fascinating animals they are instead of apple-offering hell spawn. And being polite to that person while answering their questions can make them think of us as nice wierdos rather than wierd wierdos.

If not just venomous keepers but every herper who knows their a** from a hole in the ground (alliance with the big boid keepers?) just did simple things to positively impact what they can (no single-handed battles against The Man unless they're that warrior type, for us mortals it's too likely to cause burnout) we could, if not get this Animal Rights and legislative ban fest under control, then at least put some roadblocks and speedbumps in it's way, while having fun doing so.

Just my sleep deprived and lurking 2 cents.
P.S. the toilet analogy had me in stitches.
-----
0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

finally someone who has the right idea.

I think one thing we could do is drop the term "hobby" for a discription of what we do. The keeping of animals that require lifetime care hot or not is a COMMITMENT and not just a simple "hobby" like stamp, coin or lock collecting.

This certainly isn't a job. The majority of "hot" keepers inhere are only keeping them because they are awesome and amazing animals (regardless of whether they are keeping them responsibly or not). You aren't (usually) making money off of them, and you do this on your own free will. You BUY these animals at shows or breeders,etc. If this isnt exactly a HOBBY then what is it?

>>I think one thing we could do is drop the term "hobby" for a discription of what we do. The keeping of animals that require lifetime care hot or not is a COMMITMENT and not just a simple "hobby" like stamp, coin or lock collecting.

I think of the term "hobby" hurts our image in the eyes of those who decide our futures. It makes "us" sound like something we just do to pass our time and could just be a passing fancy until something else comes along for us to try. In its purest sense, sure, you can call private individuals who keep hot stuff for pure enjoyment as hobbyists but for those who keep them for purposes of education, research, or simply because this is their passion and they want to dispel the many misconceptions that folks have of reptiles, I would tend to agree with the notion that it becomes more than just a hobby. As a curator, I keep venomous herps because its my "job" but it is also my passion. I wouldn't tell people that my hobby is keeping venomous snakes because that would, in some ways, give a negative connotation. Instead, I would tell these same folks that I keep venomous snakes for the purpose of educuation, conservation awareness. and to show people just how beautiful venomous herps are. Sure, I enjoy keeping them (and many other harmless herps) and I suppose you could call it my hobby, but when it comes to keeping venomous, I don't look at it quite that way at all. You can use the analogy of the falconer to describe this. The process of being a falconer is quite tedious and takes many years to master. It is an art form to some extent but people become falconers because they are captivated by the beauty and majesty of birds of prey and want to be close to them and share in the hunting experience. Is that a hobby? I suppose but I don't think any falconer would describe himself/herself as a "hobbyist" who works with raptors. I'm sure this makes no sense but that's my take.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>This certainly isn't a job. The majority of "hot" keepers inhere are only keeping them because they are awesome and amazing animals (regardless of whether they are keeping them responsibly or not). You aren't (usually) making money off of them, and you do this on your own free will. You BUY these animals at shows or breeders,etc. If this isnt exactly a HOBBY then what is it?
>>
>>>>I think one thing we could do is drop the term "hobby" for a discription of what we do. The keeping of animals that require lifetime care hot or not is a COMMITMENT and not just a simple "hobby" like stamp, coin or lock collecting.
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I guess I can understand. I will probably have to agree. I wasn't thinking of it in that aspect.

My apologies if my tone was a bit harsh on the last post.

Best Wishes,

chris

>>I think of the term "hobby" hurts our image in the eyes of those who decide our futures. It makes "us" sound like something we just do to pass our time and could just be a passing fancy until something else comes along for us to try. In its purest sense, sure, you can call private individuals who keep hot stuff for pure enjoyment as hobbyists but for those who keep them for purposes of education, research, or simply because this is their passion and they want to dispel the many misconceptions that folks have of reptiles, I would tend to agree with the notion that it becomes more than just a hobby. As a curator, I keep venomous herps because its my "job" but it is also my passion. I wouldn't tell people that my hobby is keeping venomous snakes because that would, in some ways, give a negative connotation. Instead, I would tell these same folks that I keep venomous snakes for the purpose of educuation, conservation awareness. and to show people just how beautiful venomous herps are. Sure, I enjoy keeping them (and many other harmless herps) and I suppose you could call it my hobby, but when it comes to keeping venomous, I don't look at it quite that way at all. You can use the analogy of the falconer to describe this. The process of being a falconer is quite tedious and takes many years to master. It is an art form to some extent but people become falconers because they are captivated by the beauty and majesty of birds of prey and want to be close to them and share in the hunting experience. Is that a hobby? I suppose but I don't think any falconer would describe himself/herself as a "hobbyist" who works with raptors. I'm sure this makes no sense but that's my take.
>>
>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center
>>Lake Forest, IL
>>
>>>>This certainly isn't a job. The majority of "hot" keepers inhere are only keeping them because they are awesome and amazing animals (regardless of whether they are keeping them responsibly or not). You aren't (usually) making money off of them, and you do this on your own free will. You BUY these animals at shows or breeders,etc. If this isnt exactly a HOBBY then what is it?
>>>>
>>>>>>I think one thing we could do is drop the term "hobby" for a discription of what we do. The keeping of animals that require lifetime care hot or not is a COMMITMENT and not just a simple "hobby" like stamp, coin or lock collecting.
>>-----
>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>Lake Forest, IL

If you'll indulge an old newt guy with two cents worth ...

Perchance the problem lies in how you view the word 'hobby', and later ... 'amateur'. If I may be so bold, this modestly travelled Canadian has found that there are variations in how our english-speaking countries treat words (If you think that Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia all speak the same 'english', ask any citizen to describe what a 'football game' is!)

My experience in the U.S. is that the words 'hobby' (and later 'amateur' ... to which I'm leading you) is, while not quite a pejorative term, used to describe a 'light-hearted' approach to any endeavour. However, if you look at the definitions of the word(s), perhaps there is room for the herp community to embrace the word for it's own ... an uphill fight mind you.

To selectively quote some I-net sources ... (all italics and bolding are my emphasis or comments)
= = = = =
the most common perception of 'hobby' is ...

hobby
An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hobby

however, it is also, and perhaps more importantly ...

hobby (noun)
Engaging in a hobby can lead to acquiring substantial skill, knowledge, and experience. However, personal fulfillment is the aim.
An important determinant of what is considered a hobby, as distinct from a profession (beyond the lack of remuneration), is probably how easy it is to make a living at the activity. Almost no one can make a living at stamp collecting, but many people find it enjoyable; so it is commonly regarded as a hobby.
Much early scientific research was, in effect, a hobby of the wealthy or in your community case - the slightly outside of social-norms hot-keeper'; more recently, Linux began as a student's hobby
http://www.free-definition.com/Hobby.html

= = = = =

The definition of Amateur that we're most used to seeing ...
Amateur (noun)
1. Someone who takes part in a sport, pastime, etc as a hobby and without being paid for it.
2. Someone who is not very skilled in an activity, etc.
Thesaurus: novice, beginner, initiate, apprentice, non-professional, neophyte, aspirant, hopeful, dabbler, greenhorn, rookie (US slang), tenderfoot.
3a. Unskilled or non-professional;
Example: liked to play the amateur detective
3b. For, relating to or done by those who are not professional.
Example: amateur dramatics
http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=amateur&goquery=Find it!&Language=ENG

However, the definition of hobbyist is somewhat larger, and originally more 'professional' that that given by the prior site ...

“many amateurs make very meaningful contributions equivalent to or exceeding those of the professionals. To many, description as an amateur is losing its negative meaning, and actually carries a badge of honor.”
“…retaining its French inflexion ("am-a-tEUR", an amateur may be as competent as a paid professional, yet is motivated by a love or passion for the activity, like a connoisseur….”
http://www.wikimirror.com/Amateur

Before I blather on and begin to wax with purple prose, up here in Canada we tend to allow 'amateurs' and 'hobbyists' a bit more respect ... particularly in things involving nature. Perhaps it is because we've stayed a bit closer to our French roots ...

For my part, I am very much, very proudly (and very much advertised) an amateur herpetologist/herpetoculturist with a fascinating hobby of breeding (well, just watching actually) newts.

respects all,
Wes

(Lets see now, I know I have a press item to post that has the words hobby, newt, amateur and viper in it ... [shuffle-shuffle of much paper]).

>>If you'll indulge an old newt guy with two cents worth ...
>>
>>Perchance the problem lies in how you view the word 'hobby', and later ... 'amateur'. If I may be so bold, this modestly travelled Canadian has found that there are variations in how our english-speaking countries treat words (If you think that Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia all speak the same 'english', ask any citizen to describe what a 'football game' is!)
>>
>>My experience in the U.S. is that the words 'hobby' (and later 'amateur' ... to which I'm leading you) is, while not quite a pejorative term, used to describe a 'light-hearted' approach to any endeavour. However, if you look at the definitions of the word(s), perhaps there is room for the herp community to embrace the word for it's own ... an uphill fight mind you.
>>
>>To selectively quote some I-net sources ... (all italics and bolding are my emphasis or comments)
>>= = = = =
>> the most common perception of 'hobby' is ...
>>
>>hobby
>>An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.
>>http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hobby
>>
>>however, it is also, and perhaps more importantly ...
>>
>>hobby (noun)
>>Engaging in a hobby can lead to acquiring substantial skill, knowledge, and experience. However, personal fulfillment is the aim.
>>An important determinant of what is considered a hobby, as distinct from a profession (beyond the lack of remuneration), is probably how easy it is to make a living at the activity. Almost no one can make a living at stamp collecting, but many people find it enjoyable; so it is commonly regarded as a hobby.
>>Much early scientific research was, in effect, a hobby of the wealthy or in your community case - the slightly outside of social-norms hot-keeper'; more recently, Linux began as a student's hobby
>>http://www.free-definition.com/Hobby.html
>>
>>= = = = =
>>
>>The definition of Amateur that we're most used to seeing ...
>>Amateur (noun)
>>1. Someone who takes part in a sport, pastime, etc as a hobby and without being paid for it.
>>2. Someone who is not very skilled in an activity, etc.
>>Thesaurus: novice, beginner, initiate, apprentice, non-professional, neophyte, aspirant, hopeful, dabbler, greenhorn, rookie (US slang), tenderfoot.
>>3a. Unskilled or non-professional;
>>Example: liked to play the amateur detective
>>3b. For, relating to or done by those who are not professional.
>>Example: amateur dramatics
>>http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=amateur&goquery=Find it!&Language=ENG
>>
>>However, the definition of hobbyist is somewhat larger, and originally more 'professional' that that given by the prior site ...
>>
>>“many amateurs make very meaningful contributions equivalent to or exceeding those of the professionals. To many, description as an amateur is losing its negative meaning, and actually carries a badge of honor.”
>>“…retaining its French inflexion ("am-a-tEUR", an amateur may be as competent as a paid professional, yet is motivated by a love or passion for the activity, like a connoisseur….”
>>http://www.wikimirror.com/Amateur
>>
>>Before I blather on and begin to wax with purple prose, up here in Canada we tend to allow 'amateurs' and 'hobbyists' a bit more respect ... particularly in things involving nature. Perhaps it is because we've stayed a bit closer to our French roots ...
>>
>>For my part, I am very much, very proudly (and very much advertised) an amateur herpetologist/herpetoculturist with a fascinating hobby of breeding (well, just watching actually) newts.
>>
>>respects all,
>>Wes
>>
>>(Lets see now, I know I have a press item to post that has the words hobby, newt, amateur and viper in it ... [shuffle-shuffle of much paper]).

Great stuff Wes! If we lived in a society where all folks handled things in such an educated and well thought out manner, I doubt we would have the problems that we do.....and you gave me much food for thought.

>>If you'll indulge an old newt guy with two cents worth ...
>>
>>Perchance the problem lies in how you view the word 'hobby', and later ... 'amateur'. If I may be so bold, this modestly travelled Canadian has found that there are variations in how our english-speaking countries treat words (If you think that Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia all speak the same 'english', ask any citizen to describe what a 'football game' is!)
>>
>>My experience in the U.S. is that the words 'hobby' (and later 'amateur' ... to which I'm leading you) is, while not quite a pejorative term, used to describe a 'light-hearted' approach to any endeavour. However, if you look at the definitions of the word(s), perhaps there is room for the herp community to embrace the word for it's own ... an uphill fight mind you.
>>
>>To selectively quote some I-net sources ... (all italics and bolding are my emphasis or comments)
>>= = = = =
>> the most common perception of 'hobby' is ...
>>
>>hobby
>>An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.
>>http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hobby
>>
>>however, it is also, and perhaps more importantly ...
>>
>>hobby (noun)
>>Engaging in a hobby can lead to acquiring substantial skill, knowledge, and experience. However, personal fulfillment is the aim.
>>An important determinant of what is considered a hobby, as distinct from a profession (beyond the lack of remuneration), is probably how easy it is to make a living at the activity. Almost no one can make a living at stamp collecting, but many people find it enjoyable; so it is commonly regarded as a hobby.
>>Much early scientific research was, in effect, a hobby of the wealthy or in your community case - the slightly outside of social-norms hot-keeper'; more recently, Linux began as a student's hobby
>>http://www.free-definition.com/Hobby.html
>>
>>= = = = =
>>
>>The definition of Amateur that we're most used to seeing ...
>>Amateur (noun)
>>1. Someone who takes part in a sport, pastime, etc as a hobby and without being paid for it.
>>2. Someone who is not very skilled in an activity, etc.
>>Thesaurus: novice, beginner, initiate, apprentice, non-professional, neophyte, aspirant, hopeful, dabbler, greenhorn, rookie (US slang), tenderfoot.
>>3a. Unskilled or non-professional;
>>Example: liked to play the amateur detective
>>3b. For, relating to or done by those who are not professional.
>>Example: amateur dramatics
>>http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=amateur&goquery=Find it!&Language=ENG
>>
>>However, the definition of hobbyist is somewhat larger, and originally more 'professional' that that given by the prior site ...
>>
>>“many amateurs make very meaningful contributions equivalent to or exceeding those of the professionals. To many, description as an amateur is losing its negative meaning, and actually carries a badge of honor.”
>>“…retaining its French inflexion ("am-a-tEUR", an amateur may be as competent as a paid professional, yet is motivated by a love or passion for the activity, like a connoisseur….”
>>http://www.wikimirror.com/Amateur
>>
>>Before I blather on and begin to wax with purple prose, up here in Canada we tend to allow 'amateurs' and 'hobbyists' a bit more respect ... particularly in things involving nature. Perhaps it is because we've stayed a bit closer to our French roots ...
>>
>>For my part, I am very much, very proudly (and very much advertised) an amateur herpetologist/herpetoculturist with a fascinating hobby of breeding (well, just watching actually) newts.
>>
>>respects all,
>>Wes
>>
>>(Lets see now, I know I have a press item to post that has the words hobby, newt, amateur and viper in it ... [shuffle-shuffle of much paper]).
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

To me it's all a play on words and it doesn't really mean anything. It's the intention behind the word as pointed out that gives it meaning. This somthing is often lost when all you see is print over the internet. As a fellow canadian, I too was lost over the usage of hobby being a tarnish to what we all do (or would love to do).

All in all I think a previous thread said it all when everybody does a little here and there to pass on a positive perspective on reptiles then we are all for the better. Thanks Drosera

.
-----
0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Personally I would call it a VOCATION. This term can mean something other than a job for profit but having a much higher degree of commitment and discipline than a "hobby".

I do agree that the best way to help save reptiles reputations and our hobby is to get active and do something. The philosophy of "Can't we all get along" sounds great, but it will never happen. As far as the forum goes, if someone is being a moron, I generally just ignore it because fighting gets the moron more publicity than they deserve. Now if it is a moron on tv or in the news, that may negate some other action.
Personally, I have made many efforts in educating the public. I solicit programs to all the schools and libraries as well as putting together reptile displays for local venues. Education is our strongest tool. I'm not a professional speaker and in fact, I get butterflies every time before I step out in front of a crowd. But the thought of saving the lives and reputations of herps helps me through it.
In order to prevent snakes having to meet their fate with the end of a shovel, I also offer rescue/relocation of snakes. I have let animal control, dept. of wildlife, vets, pet stores, and the news and media know of this service so people know that they have an alternative to making snake sushi.
As far as legislation goes, I have had to adopt an "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" philosophy. Since it has been clear that making any meaningful changes to local legislation is going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible...I have become a member of the animal control board that hears all exotic animal permits. Now, instead of leaving permittees fate to a group of dog/cat enthusiasts, I can be an educated voice of reason in defense of the reptiles. Conversely, if the permittee is an uneducated yahoo, I can take appropriate actions to help prevent further destruction to herps reputations. Also, being on the board gives me more of an edge to make changes to the law when the time is right. Keep in mind though, that I am fighting a community that had a baby killed a by a python a decade ago, but hasn’t forgotten.
As you can see, there is a lot that can be done. I wouldn’t really expect anyone to dedicate themselves quite as much as I have since I know most people have lives beyond herps, but even just the smallest efforts can go a long way.

That board that you are on sounds cool, I wonder if there is one in my province that is similar? What qualifications did you need to get aboard the board? lol

Ian

It is a cool board, and I am glad it was formed. Unfortunately, we hear mostly "Kennel Permits" for people that wish to keep more than the 3 dogs the law allows, but that is a completely different subject. Qualifications, hmmm..... Actually, my qualifications made very little difference in this case. I am very experienced and qualified when it comes to reptiles and am regarded as something of a local authority on them. But in this case, as with many things government, they seemed to look beyond qualifications. They had actually filled the position I was originally trying for with someone far less qualified, but they did it for political reasons. So, I went for a different position on the board and called in a favor, and that is how I ended up on the board. It is sad that it would play out that way, but as I said in my previous post, we do what we must do. Fortunately, our board is not very polital though. Some of the county staff we work with is, but mostly they are all good people involved in this process now. Now if only I could get them to accept a more reasonable law regarding reptiles.....

>That board that you are on sounds cool, I wonder if there is one in my province that is similar? What qualifications did you need to get aboard the board? lol

Ian