Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For the last week I have seen multiple ads continue to drop as the weeks pass. What message is this sending to the consumer ?
Why would they make a purchase if they know next time your ad expires your knocking $500-$1000 off. Very good example is yearling male spiders a onth ago were $8000 now $5500. Hold the prices they will sell. If the price does drop every week why should I invest. The price droppers are only hurting themselves. Have they ever thought that this why thier snake isnt moving?

Mike

Thats why you make a name for yourself...hold your prices and they will sell. I bet if you ask breeders what they are selling theirs for they'll quote you around the same price they did at the beginning of the season...but also keep in mind...the hatching season is only around halfway over....prices vary alot through the season...they go up...they go down...its never a set price...its always just kind of a ballpark price most people advertise...
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

I agree with the first guy...you choose a bad morph to argue over...it is by far from new. It is heavily produced and I still feel a little overpriced right now. To many of them out there...but i have 1 and i am waiting to breed it. Also i will back up guy number 2...as the season starts prices will be around what they where last year and as it progresses the prices drop...not to rock bottom...but rock bottom that particular year. You either drop your price or hold onto your animals and maybe not sell...the desperate ones drop the prices...the not so desperate may drop a little but not so much.
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Michael Enriquez

This is a fairly complex topic. But supply and demand play a huge role. When demand far exceeds supply, prices are high. Once you reach a certain point (crest, if you will) in supply vs demand graphs, prices have no choice but to go down. Animals like Spyders and Pastels are "fast track" animals. They can be bought, bred and quickly produce miniatures of themselves. But this double-edged sword results in a large influx of supply - supply that can quickly exceed demand - or reach that magic number. I also believe, and have stated on several occasions, that these types of animals will lose value fairly quickly as the market will be flooded with them.

Then comes into play pricing models - too many to inumerate. But one such conditions is sell at the top, then continue to sell as the price drops. This is like a pyramid. You will have fewer buyers at the top when the price is high. As the price is lowered, you open the door for more buyers and so on and so on. Those who got in early, can gain more than those who came later. That fact is, most of us are not going to pay 5k for a hatchling, raise it to breeding age, breed it, hatch its young and expect to get the same 5k we bought the snake for.

The dynamics of this market and those like it can and do fill libraries. Don't fight the tape. Just enjoy the ride!
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

The biggest problem with this is that they post a particular animal for sale. wait 30 minutes and start wondering..."why haven't I gotten a call/email yet?".... another 30 minutes go bye.....Still no call...."oh, no maybe it is too high" ok, they say. "I'll fix it." They log back on... drop said price...$500. "now they figure....ok, this will sell now." 30 more minutes goes bye. "Oh, great an email....Who could this be from.....They open it ....Damn, Nigeria scam trying to give me 25 million to babysit!!! Now they are worried because they heard all those great sales pitches on how these morphs are so HOT that everyone will want them but why isn't my bank account flowing with K's by now..... There goes that great trip I promissed "the wife" in order for me to re-mortgage the house.....Oh no, the wife , She's going to kill me!! We can't afford that payment as it is. Oh, well i'll just keep dropping my prices until it sells. I guess only Ralph, Kevin, Tracy and all those big breeders sell their snakes for these prices....If you can't afford it DON'T BUY IT. Do everyone a favor. Build your collection with lower priced morphs and then use snake money to buy snakes!! This is the basement on this whole crazy ball python thing.... You don't need to rush to own big projects they will come...

You see where i'm going.....Keep your prices where they should be regardless of morph. They will sell!! It takes time...weeks not days....and if you don't sell them all right away.... great!!! They are worth more as they get older or you will have another great adult to breed.

I get more emails thanking me for keeping my prices without dropping them, then I do emails from people trying to badger me for quick sales. I know I can call any big breader and buy any new morph and they will be comfortable to sell to me knowing I won't cave my prices and effect their investment. Oh, did we forget that! Be careful who you sell to. Everyone that drops prices for no good reason should never be sold too.

So, go buy pastels, bumble bees , and Black eyed lucy's (if you can get mike to stop looking at it! Shut the light off Mike let the poor thing sleep!!!!) There will always be buyers and there will always be new projects for you to help keep you going.

See everyone at Daytona!!! Can't wait.

Mike King
MK Reptiles

Amen, I am not in this for the quick cash, I love dealing with these animals, if I never make a cent but can use what I breed to get higher end morphs then my goal has been met. Everyone needs to realize, price is set by supply and demand. Everyone is thinking they can get rich by breading ball pythons. For every person that has I will show you a hundred more that mortgaged the house and found themselves in too deep. DO NOT SPEND WHAT YOU CANNOT LOOSE. Give the big breeders their dues, THEY started this craze and I thank them all for it. THEY took the time, the pains and the effort and now all of us want-to-be's are trying to cash in. It is a great hobby, there is a large demand, but don't just put an animal on for the first time and expect to get a wad of cash...You hurt the whole industry that way, grow it, prove it and get more as a breeding adult. Get a reputation and take it from there. Snakes, especially ball pythons are becoming more mainstream, the shows I go to are packed. As the prices come down, more people will buy. The higher end and new morphs will always be worth more. Hard work and patience will pay off, but buying two snakes and thinking you will make millions probably won't. Sorry to ramble, I do not post much but I just had to vent...This is a fun thing, keep it that way and give people like the Snake Keepers, Amir, Jehrad, Andre and The Graziani's their just desserts (and many I have not mentioned....) They earned the right to sell thir animals for more, we are all just trying to play catch-up. My 2 cents, if you love it, do it, if you are just in it for the cash....try day trading and do not quit your day job. Remember, you have to !!!EARN!!! the reputation to set the cost!!!!Not to be mean to all those that are trying, heck, I am one of those, but keep it in perspective.

Question: Who loses more when someone drops prices until animals actually move in a given time-frame? Bigger, longer established, and reputable breeders with bigger facilities, larger inventories who have been breeding since the stone age, and dont have a credibility issue to overcome with new buyers, or smaller/newer/panicky/unknown breeders trying to re-coup a short-term investment with just a few animals in a closet before higher profits pass them buy? also, who's action's are more understandable...a newer breeder trying to move a couple animals to pay bills and/or satisfy his/her personal agenda, or an older breeder policing prices to satisfy his/her agenda?

I would guess that many 1st tier breeders of today remmember what it felt like chasing NERD in the early days, and now many second and third generation breeders share similar frustrations feeding off the scraps of the second and third tier breeders...taking relatively minor profits compared to the breeders who produced the first few generations of a new morph. In a way, are we not all both first and sub-tier to someone? I think many forget too quickly that in the long run, this hobby will be driven by multitudes of smaller breeders who didn't have the initial start-up capital others had, and understandably don't have the patience or facility space to raise enough pastels to pay for a bannana ball....
we can all certainly understand why price-dropping occurs, but I think the answer to my original question is that it hurts BOTH larger and smaller breeders potential profit-gain equally proportion-wise
(but larger breeders with larger inventories stand to lose more volume), and the answer to my second question is that both party's motives are equally understandable and plausible(but the smaller/unkown guy trying to paybills is probably more understandable in lowering prices until a sale, than the bigger breeder trying to raise enough funds to buy the next big thing from africa).
if some breeders feel that people should only buy snakes they can afford to lose, and not to overly extend personal finances to aquire them, then why are those same breeders oftentimes the quickest to police prices? Also, what would happen to the entire morph market if everyone bought solely for pleasure, without any expectation of a return on investment?
i would wager that the prices of today would not even be remotely possible to maintain,nor would they even exist. SO, the bottomline is that the investment gradient is the only reason morons (lol) like us trade cars, boats and/or houses for 60 gram snakes. And whether you are a relative 1st tier,or a Nth power tier herper, understand that every individual's perspective will righfully guide their own agenda, and it is probably not our right to judge someone else's agenda, so don't worry about what other's sell their 60 gram snakes for just do your research, buyer beware, have fun with your herps, and "let it be"

You are right, my father trades baseball cards and I ask him how he can pay as much as he does for a piece of printed cardboard, he in turn asks how I can pay so much for a snake!!!! We laugh and understand that it is because we enjoy it. Like I said...perspective, we both love what we do and yes, it is like gambling...it is an addiction. There IS money to be had, and I do know about those that are nervous about paying the bills. I think when a small time breeder sells something for below market costs, it hurts everyone, but it hurts the little guy more. The big breeders have the name and the capitol that they can stand their ground, when a small breeder sells off his collection, it is a one time deal and he probably will not be around too long. This is where the fluctuation comes in. Those with patience will hold out, those that are nervous will not.. You need low end morphs to get the general public into this and in turn keep people shooting for the high end ones. This will keep the serious people in and the higher costs consistant. Add to that that you do not get 20 to 40 babies like the boas, balls do not breed every year and all the other variables leads me to believe that those that truely love the ball python craze will do well over time, but doing well is also a relative term. Those that are just in it for a buck will fade out. Not that I know alot, I just like these little guys and would have fun with them as I do with my kings, redtails, Honduran etc, not for the money, just to see them grow and what might come out of that egg from that slightly different looking female I picked up four years ago.

Those that are just in it for a buck will fade out.

I've got news for you: those paying 5k or more for a snake ARE in it for the money. That may not be the only driving factor but it's a larger part of their reasoning for purchasing an animal at this cost.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Actually, I feel that every project should be viewed as "long term" not short term investments. That right there might be a big factor towards someones success. You have good points but first off I don't care at all about the guy who loses because he dropped his prices....I can only control what I can do to help my chances of succeeding. I want everyone to breed snakes and make the money they have earned for all their hard work.

I actually, look at every high end purchase this way... I did not just spend 20k for the snake but 20k for the opportunity. I know as i'm sure you do, the longer you have it the more you make and produce. The later is assuming you hold on to some of your babies for the future. As the price comes down as we all know they will.. you should be making more. I can't wait for the day that the price of high end animals progresses down to be affordable but just not in 6 months. It should take years. As for the big breeder with more overhead losing out more on dropping prices. I don't feel that is a true statement. I see as the middle tier breeder gets hurt the worst. Big breeders produce many more of each animal. they can recoop with numbers. produce more, sell more, same money. The smaller breeder cannot produce enough animals to get in to a position to make the same profit. He/she loses.

How much money is being made a year at pastels in this country???? Any guess takers??? ALOT. Pastels used to be higher end morphs. Now they are affordable but still worth breeding.

All, I am saying is be smart. Start off with what you can afford NOW. There are always going to be high end morphs for you to make higher returns. When affording them is within reason. I never said there is never a valid reason to sell lower then market. People get sick , divorced, and many other terrible situations that arise in everyones lives but it just seems that we are having more price drops then valid reasons.

Mike

Mike, I am glad there are others that think like I do. I have a 10 year plan...LOL, then 15 years from that when I retire (from my day job), I can use this to keep me busy when I am a crusty old f$%*. I too believe it takes all price morphs to keep this going. Not many people will spend $20,000 but lots will spend $1000, that is the clincher cause you know later they will buy more and if you have done everything right, they will buy from you. To all those that are worried, if the oven is too hot, maybe it is not the right thing for you, but for those that have the patience, drive and can overcome the hardships.... I could be talking about ANY money making venture here, If you try hard, use your mind and gut feelings, and really love what you are doing...you will do well

I BELIEVE... The market isnt droping its just leveling out.. Because the truth of the matter is alot of people cant afford A $8,000 snake.. And when the seller drops a price he's just setting the price and has to compete with other reptile breeders now that there are more and more breeders starting to show up..
So many morphs babies are being produced by the hour this year and they are all $1000 plus plus plus a piece and the truth is for the beginning to novice breeder.. Or someone like my self 19 in college cant afford a $8,000 snake. So if the breeder wants to sell he has to give the best price simple as that.. So many morphs being produce that the demand is dropping because there are sooo many available. All the big breeders have thier breeding stock so of course leaves them with a crap load of hatchlings and they are selling like I said mostly to the beginner to novice keeper. So bottom line the ball python business is to the point where the prices will continue to drop as more and more and more and more and more morphs become available in larger numbers because its less demand.. I know I will never have a spider all I want is a albino, pastel, maybe a pied and I know I wont reach my goal to get just one of them probably til 2010... Just my 2 cents..
Morphs are flooding the market so the breeders are dukeing it out. Because money is important and I would rather buy a spider of good quality for $5,500 then basically a identical snake in health quality and looks and sex for $8,000...
Jbugg

i wonder how many times microsoft has called up macintosh and vented on them for selling a product comparable to thiers for less money?

does wells fargo ever call up ditech.com and fume on them for dropping their rates to be more competitive?

has toyota ever sued GM for producing and selling a car "too cheap?"

did WalMart ever send K-mart a nastygram regarding their sales agenda?

imagine what people would think of microsoft, wells fargo, wal-mart or toyota if they did...

i feel that one man's $5,000 is another man's $50,000 is another man's $500...eventually, as the years go by...a larger and larger percentage of the market will be solely driven by sub $1000 snakes...those who are smarter probably plan on those days...there is nothing anyone can do about that...it is a time-tested phenomena...but hey, to 99% of the population right now, $1000 for a snake is still purcieved as nuckin' futs! the only people who are truly hurt by price fluctuations in the market are those who deluded themselves into thinking they wouldn't occur as significantly as they do...and this includes both big and small fish in this pond....it is probably most important to just have fun at what you do...be careful to do your homework before buying some genes, weigh all risks involved, buyer always beware, let the god's of supply and demand run their course without trying to yoke them, and just "let it be(lol)"

rules aren't so simple to some. If you don't understand, then get mad. Yep, that works. LOL
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Who was that being directed too??
Jbugg

>>Who was that being directed too??
>>Jbugg
>>
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

i wonder how many times microsoft has called up macintosh and vented on them for selling a product comparable to thiers for less money?

Microsoft was in hot water for cornering the market....

does wells fargo ever call up ditech.com and fume on them for dropping their rates to be more competitive?

Everyone is offering cheap rates....

has toyota ever sued GM for producing and selling a car "too cheap?"

Actually Toyota RAISED their prices so GM could compete....

did WalMart ever send K-mart a nastygram regarding their sales agenda?

Didn't need to, K-Mart buried themselves with their marketing strategy which benefited WalMart.

Breeders producing hundreds of babies can afford to sit on them until the market supports their asking price. The small breeder producing a handful of babies needs to move them to support the hobby. These are the LOW prices many see and react to. Once they sell then the big breeders can demand their price if you want what they are selling. JMHO.... Ron
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http://www.the-crawl-space.com

"Microsoft was in hot water for cornering the market...."

Do big breeder's ever get into any kind of federally-regulated hot water for cornering markets?

"Everyone is offering cheap rates...."

Is every herper offering cheap snakes?

"Actually Toyota RAISED their prices so GM could compete...."

Do some breeders maintain ficticious prices outwardly, while selling inventory for much less behind closed walls? Is it in some herper's best international business interest to keep domestic US brands competitive?

"K-Mart buried themselves with their marketing strategy which benefited WalMart."

Are some breeders strategies going to prove out to be less lucrative than others?

"Breeders producing hundreds of babies can afford to sit on them until the market supports their asking price. The small breeder producing a handful of babies needs to move them to support the hobby. These are the LOW prices many see and react to. Once they sell then the big breeders can demand their price if you want what they are selling."

I personally agree with the fact that there is greater redundancy enjoyed by those who have higher inventories, and if a small breeder sells a smaller number of animals at a lower price quick without flooding the market, the breeder with the larger inventory will not be affected by a couple panicky sellers trying to move a few animals quick. so why is panicky price slashing and price police-ing so prevalent in this hobby/business? i personally don't understand why the community/hobby/industry can't evolve a little/grow up to the point where what i call the "playground effect" will be reduced, and more conventional, sophistocated, mature, and realistic business/personal hobby etiquette will be the standard. If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

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http://www.the-crawl-space.com

>>Microsoft was in hot water for cornering the market....
>>

Not for cornering the market but for unfair business practices as defined by the law.

>>Everyone is offering cheap rates....
>>

Yep. Bidding for your business. But someone will always have a lower rate. Just as there will be those with higher rates. And both shoot for different markets and the same markets but they will always try to undercut the next guy to get your business.

>>Actually Toyota RAISED their prices so GM could compete....
>>

One event hardly qualifies in a history of opposite reactions. GM and so many others have hurt themselves. Not the competition.

>>Didn't need to, K-Mart buried themselves with their marketing strategy which benefited WalMart.

The same can be said in the BP industry.

>>
>>Breeders producing hundreds of babies can afford to sit on them until the market supports their asking price. The small breeder producing a handful of babies needs to move them to support the hobby. These are the LOW prices many see and react to. Once they sell then the big breeders can demand their price if you want what they are selling. JMHO.... Ron

Interesting statement. However, I see plenty of old inventory left over from large and small breeders alike. I'm curious though, what the percentage of the market small breeders make up. If small, say 10%, then they would have a relatively small influence on the market. Personally, I think small breeders make up a much larger part of the overall market.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

right on jay...i agree...i'll bet small breeders make up a much larger part of the proportion of captive-bred snakes than many realize...it would be interesting to do some kind of high-end market study of the crazy dynamics involved here.

I'm curious though, what the percentage of the market small breeders make up. If small, say 10%, then they would have a relatively small influence on the market. Personally, I think small breeders make up a much larger part of the overall market.

Jay,
I would say small breeders make up 90% or better of the hobby. Thats why you see the lower prices. If you post a Pied for $5000 and Pete Kahl posts several at that price guess where I'm going? Now if you have a lower price you get the biz. Thats where the trouble starts. Some small breeders lower their prices and when they don't sell they lower the price even more. I have done this myself when I wanted to move an animal or neeeded cash for something else. Ron
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The Crawl Space

>> I would say small breeders make up 90% or better of the hobby.

That figure would seem accurate to me. Or at least very close.

>>Thats why you see the lower prices. If you post a Pied for $5000 and Pete Kahl posts several at that price guess where I'm going?

Same place as me! LOL.

>>Now if you have a lower price you get the biz. Thats where the trouble starts. Some small breeders lower their prices and when they don't sell they lower the price even more. I have done this myself when I wanted to move an animal or neeeded cash for something else. Ron

I agree. I would like to add that smaller breeders don't come with the reputation of smaller breeders. When I was in the market for het pieds, I found plenty of snakes at very good prices. Much less expensive than what I eventually paid with Pete Kahl - who would not budge on the price, BTW. But for me, that was a large investment and I did not want to take a chance. For others, it's the only way and for those selling, they know they have to lower their prices to compete (or at least make a sale). I have several het albino males for sale with many more coming. Will I lower their prices? Maybe, maybe not. I would like to get into other projects but... I have been know to hold onto my hets for 1 year and then sell them for good $ once they are larger and established. Of course, people can argue against this as well. Every new year, you see prices of animals from the year before for the same price. Ads like "Why pay full price for an 05 when you can get an 04?".

Oh well. I still like to see the little guys popping out of their eggs.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Jay,
Now we're on the same page! If you can hang onto your hatchlings for a year then you're better off anyway. Ron
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The Crawl Space

>>Jay,
>> Now we're on the same page! If you can hang onto your hatchlings for a year then you're better off anyway. Ron
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>>The Crawl Space

I would really like to expand my collection. In order to do that, I have to sell or trade. If I wait a year, I lose precious time. However, the animals I'm selling usually go faster and they ones I want a cheaper than the year before.

Oh hell, someone send me one morph of each kind and we can stop this madness!! LOL
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

EXACTLY............some people are under the impression that about ten people own and run this hobby,,,,,,,,,,,,,there are hundreds of breeders,,,,,,,,,,,,you think because they dont have banners or advertise everyday they dont exist........how many mojave males do you think have been produced since the first one............do you think ONE of them was bought as a pet or were they ALL bred to their full potential,,,,,,,,,,,,anyone who wanted one when they were at 10,000 would have done so already............its now moving to the next level and will continue to do so until it bottoms out like pastels and albinos have,,,,and im not saying the bottom will be the same because of the white factor so lets not start a new thread on that comment.........,,,,advertised prices and actually written checks are in NOWAY the same numbers.............one guy advertised for what i bet was a firm price instead of the oh too common "call and lets work something out" adds weve all seen and got slammed on here for it........i gaurantee he is not the only one who was willing to accept 5000 for a mojave............so as stated earlier and the best heading as of yet on ALL these posts...........LET IT BE

To 99.99 percent of the world, you couldn't even GIVE them a snake, let alone sell it to the for $50.

I couldn't agree more. I can't wait til the day I can have every morph out there and cross them to my hearts content. A $1000 snake seems a stretch now, but 5K, only investors and rich people can afford that. When prices drop, everyone will be able to enjoy what then many consider money makers. I would rather the animals be considered pets, and not investments.
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1.21 ball pythons
1 speckled kingsnake
1 snapping turtle
1.0 argentine horned frog
1.1 English Bulldogs