Reptile & Amphibian Forums

????$5000ea???? I just really dont know what to say about that.

It sucks for the small timer like me buying a breeder male this year. Not that Im in it just for the money but man, I hope he doesnt have any babies next year.............

You just sent a bunch more people to the classifieds to check out this ad! I would have never even seen it Who knows why he would advertise so low... Even his pinstripes are quite a bit lower than the norm. His animals, so its up to him, but I don't think that will effect market price... Hopefully.... I'm not selling at that price this year.
Tom Baker

he is a big breeder with an extensive collection. Ron
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The Crawl Space

Look at the Spider market.......
yep!
But then again more folks can enjoy owning one!
When pins are at $8,000.00 I will buy one. Not $20,000.00.....don't know how many are out there.
Interesting to watch the platty market next year.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Ive got the next 10 years of my life planned out around those snakes!!

just look at those Spider lessers!!! Woma lessers!!! I LOVE IT

It's all good my friend......
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

np

Lot will be out!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

It doesn't help that you have 6-8 people posting mojaves for sell everyday. Then to add to that their knocking $500 off every week or two. Hopefully that's as low as they'll go, and people will learn to sit on things for a while. In May we sold our last available 04' male mojave. It took a while but we got our asking price. If I was a potential customer, why would I buy when I know next month they'll be cheaper. In my opinion what's hurting this market the most is all the people advertising something for $10k yet selling it for $5-6k. It's hard to know what to buy and what to pay for it because of all these behind closed door deals. We need to start some type of Ball Python Union, or maybe a Ball Street Journal. Anyways I could go on for days with this topic, so I'll stop for now.

Eric Sandoval
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www.ESReptiles.com

Eric it is called "Open Market!"
Like the stock market.....buy at the agreed price.
If there is one of a kind that is what brings high value. The more out there the lower the price. I paid 6k for a het pied male. Pied males were 25k......Market value.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Rick,
I agree, the more that are out there the cheaper they'll be. But now next week someone else is going to sell them for less because their afraid they won't sell them any other way. If people would keep prices steady for a while then things will start to sell.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

Like my spider I bought in January of 2004....A breeder told me he was offered a pair for 8k last year. I should make my money back this summer on my spider.
The ball market has grown to the point that all can make good money and enjoy working with the best damn snake out there. The lower prices will bring more into the market place. And most breeders big or small will drop prices behind the door. I am sure you know that.
It is your animal and your agreement.
Holding out will work. Depends on how fast you want/need cash.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

I agree with what you just said Eric. However I do think some people low balling will help in the way that some people afraid to take the plunge will not be able to resist a steal of a deal. Once you start buying it is hard to stop....therefor those lucky people may eventually start buying more and more which is good for the market. Let's also consider exactly who we're talking about. In other words I myself will pay the extra buck for snakes from one of the more well known breeders even if I can get it cheaper elsewhere. Some people feel you can buy with confidence knowing the chances of you getting stuck with a snake that has been around wild caughts, possibly exposed to IBD or a non feeder....or other negative things is reduced when you buy from the more established well known breeders. I think holding your prices and getting what you asked for is a sign you are that confident in your animals, and that means everything to a new comer to this market like me. Tom Stevens

I agree Tom, once you start buying BP's it's hard to stop. I have accepted that I am completely powerless over my addiction

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

I actually emailed you about Womas....which I may sell to pursue Balls. Not an easy decision to make but getting info for Womas is not half as easy as it is for Balls. You have nice stuff Eric, You are on my short list of possible sources for future snakes. That pic of the Woma on the blue background is one of the best Woma pics I ever saw. Good luck with all your projects Tom Stevens

I only produced one woma this season. I was wrapped up with the balls and only introduced them a couple times. An egg ruptured in the only clutch I got and the fluid killed all the eggs except the one that was still in the femaale. My girls were due for a year off anyways. We displayed that male last year at the Anaheim NARBC show and everyone was blown away by him.

Take Care,
Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

I would just keep my animals at market price. The competition would run out of stock soon...especially at those low prices.

Chris
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mean people suck

trading.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

You bet trading goes on in this bizz. Sota like baseball cards!!!!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Its business plain and simple. If you cant sell something for a given proce you lower the price till you find the right price. I can understand sitting on females. But what good is sitting on males?

Because if you wait six months your hatchling males are now breeder males.

Chris
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mean people suck

I would rather have rack space. And cash to fil those empty spots with new animals.

.... most people on here say they do it for the love of Ball Pythons not for the money, yet when the price drops they freak, lol. Selling Mojaves for $5000.00 will still make that seller a nice profit. Nocturnal Tom you worry about wild caughts? Who do you think brings in the bulk of them, YEP the big breeders.Looking for that next hidden morph. Maybe not all of them but some do.What makes their animals better than a smaller breeders? More than likely the small guys breeder animal came from a big breeder to begin with. Spending extra money for a "NAME" must be a status thing I guess. The prices are out of control but thats what Supply & Demand dictates. They are all the same snake with different paint jobs. I think more reasonable prices would open the door for many people THAT WILL get addicted and become customers to us all. I rather sell 10 snakes at $5000.00 than sit on 1 until someone can afford $50,000.00 for it.The key is how many animals you produce. JMHO as always.. Ron
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The Crawl Space

I am what you would consider a very very small breeder as I should only be expecting between 6-8 clutches of eggs next season and most of them will be poss het clutches. every female will be held back and all males will be sold at nice normal prices. that will give the low income person a chance to get into the game and possibly produce a given morph in 4-5 yrs with very little investment other than time. with that said, they will be starting out with the same bloodlines as the large breeders that I bought my original het's from and nice outcrossed "wild" bloodlines. the only difference is that when i start making my het's available for sell I will have trouble because I will have to price lower than say RDR,NERD,MKR, Gulf Coast, just to sell a snake. Will it be a huge difference, heck no. To some people a $100 difference in price is worth it. Everyone must remember the big boys were small breeders at one time too. I just can't wait to produce my first clutch of pied's, albino's, hypo's and pastels in a couple of yrs. and with the price drop's alot of other people will be able to enjoy it as well. one more thing, I bet there were more spiders produced this yr than albino's so what's up with the fact that spiders cost more?????
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2.0 het pied (RDR, alan bosch)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel)
1.0 het citrus hypo(gulf coast line)
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
6 white eggs from pastel to norm breeding
4 various corns
1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

The problem is most people that are advertising them for sale don't know much about economics. Perception is everything, and the reason prices are high on ANYTHING in this world is because of it's being rare, or it is perceived as being rare. It is this perception that holds up our entire economy in this country. When a "breeder" (and I use that phrase loosley) gets on the classifieds and basically says "I have a whole bunch for sale and a whole bunch more clutches yet to hatch, and nobody knows who I am so I'm really desperate to sell mine", that completely ruins the integrity of the offering. That equells no credibility. It puts the thought in the consumers mind that there are a lot of them out there so why should they be so high priced, and more importantly, why should I pay that asking price now ? And they are right. It gets back to supply and demand, and apperently there is a lot of supply out there, or at least one would think so according to the advertising on the classifieds right now. Don't expect to get much for Mojaves this year because of it. Nice going guys ! Maybe everyone should not have produced so much...what a novel idea ! Because of the ineptness of marketing via all the semi-pros out there, Mojaves will be $3-4,000 snakes by the end of the year. Don't believe me ? Look at Spiders...way over produced last year and where are they now ? Exactly. Did all of the available Spiders even get sold last year ? By the way...is there anything wrong with selling a $3,000 snake ?
Paul Edwards
Paul Edwards Reptiles

I agree. Perception is everything. And that is EXACTLY what causes market crashes -- the panic brought on by the PERCEPTION of an impending market crash. Crazy, huh?

(The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.)

Chris
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mean people suck

Perception is everything, and the reason prices are high on ANYTHING in this world is because of it's being rare, or it is perceived as being rare

And what makes something rare? Well, being hard to find, hard to duplicate, being one-of-a-kind, not many people having one, etc etc etc.

Mojaves are NONE of those things. In fact, not many BP mutations are.

Nothing wrong with selling a $3,000 snake. Heck, nothing wrong with a $1,000 snake!

>>Perception is everything, and the reason prices are high on ANYTHING in this world is because of it's being rare, or it is perceived as being rare

I don't think many people perceive these high-dollar snakes to be rare. I think they see "I'll pay 10K and sell the babies for 10K and get rich."

>>
>>And what makes something rare? Well, being hard to find, hard to duplicate, being one-of-a-kind, not many people having one, etc etc etc.
>>

Supply and demand.

>>Mojaves are NONE of those things. In fact, not many BP mutations are.

Completely agreed!

>>Nothing wrong with selling a $3,000 snake. Heck, nothing wrong with a $1,000 snake!

Again completely agreed.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Right on, Paul! I think even getting 500 for a little snake egg is wild.

Stan Chiras

Here is the deal the way I see it, I am not to worried about the prices dropping because WE will sell more animals, Yea I may not get as much as JOE BLOW that sold the ones before me but the lower the price goes the MORE PEOPLE that want them can afford them. Yes, I would like to see the prices stay up but at 7500 -10,000 for a Mojave, How many average reptile people can afford that? Not MANY, I remember wishing I could afford an Albino Ball, or Albino burmese. And look at them Years later they are still holding a good price. And with Albino Burmese's you can get 20-60 eggs per female. With ball pythons you are real lucky to get 7-10 eggs on every female. But anyway that is just my opinion. Thanks David

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

I feel that just because one person posts one ad it shouldnt dictate that every mojave should be sold at that price. Its one ad, posted by one individual.Let him sell his animals at that price, once they`re gone people will have to look else where for their stock. As long as everyone else doesnt follow this example the mojave and pinstripe market should be fine. Look at the lesser platty market, the people that own them arent crashing their own market. They paid big bucks for those animals and they are consistent in their pricing. There arent any rogue people out there killing the market place. I wish people that have invested in ball python morphs would take a lesson from the lesser platty people when it come to selling and marketing their product. Mark Petros BallPython777.com

Ball Pythons are not food. People don't NEED a Mojave. So when people see them for $5K, that's what they will always see. If they don't see it at that price, why bother to go and get one and spend $2K MORE. Not to mention the whole Mojave thing left a bad taste in a LOT of people's mouths when they were first advertised at $6K, then there was "thought" that they were linked to a white snake so they jumped up to $10K, then when MK proved it, they jumped to $50K!!! That $50K price lasted for about a week, then there were down to $30K/pair. They further dropped again within the same year, and seem to be dropping again the same way. It doesn't help that they eat GOOD, grow fast, and the males are pretty ravenous breeders. Those aren't good traits for a snake keeping its price high for a long time.

5 years ago (or so) one person produced them. Say they sold 5 males to the world, and you can bet your bottom dollar those 5 breeders had those males breeding at 8-10 months of age. Those 5 breeders produced 10 males each and certianly sold them. 50 males in the general population, and that was 3-4 years ago!!! How many breeder males are out there now? Hundreds? NO WAY the market can sustain a $7K price for 200 Mojave breeders in the US alone. Yikes. Females will stay high, but with the need for only ONE male in each collection, Mojaves will drop just as fast or faster than Spiders.

I am just getting into the ball python breeding game and I am glad to see the price drops. This makes it a market where many more people can have nice snakes. There are a limited number of people out there who will pay 10K for an animal. But many more will pay 5k, and still more at 1K. I don't see spending more than 1K for a snake ever. I am a teacher and just don't have that kind of disposable income. Right now I am looking at buying hets to breed my own albinos and pieds because I don't see the prices falling to 1K or lower any time soon. I personally can't wait to see the market get to the point where you see an all white snake in pet store. Then we won't be shipping in so many babies and we won't be worrying about the CH feeding problems so much. Just enjoying the CB animals that will be abundantly available.

Just my two cents.
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1.21 ball pythons
1 speckled kingsnake
1 snapping turtle
1.0 argentine horned frog
1.1 English Bulldogs

People get into business to make money, is there something wrong with trying to make a return on your investment? If you can never see yourself spending more than $1,000 then its going to take you an awful long time to biuld a ball python collection. I think you should get into corn snakes. If you had spent over $100,000 building a collection, I dont think you`d be rooting for the values of your animals to decrease basically because of the actions of one idiot. And as to your other "point", the importation of balls will not slow down regardless of our captive breeding. Its one of the staples of their economy. I`m sorry you dont have alot of disposable income.... boo hoo Mark Petros

When you actually breed something and make "snake money", that is when you'll have no problems buying a $10,000 snake. Yeah, it sucks HARD to buy a $5,000 snake out of several hard-earned paychecks, but hatch 4 or 5 clutches of Pastels, and all of a sudden, a pair of Spiders or a male pied and 3 female hets is not so much money.

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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

werent mojaves $5000 before they produced the white ball?--and then everyone tripled the price on them-it will all work itself out--law of supply and demand--it is a set law and affects our market whether we want it to or not.

The Mojave price has been ALL over the map since Day 1. That's the sucky part.

The only way to prevent this in the future is to look who will hold strong on their price and who won't. Then, you take this info to determine who is going to get a new mutation and who isn't. When selling a "new" project to someone you don't want the guy who drops their price every week until it sells. I'll sell het albinos, het pieds....etc to anyone who wants them. But, the new projects are only going to be sold to reputable people who won't crash the market prematurely.

Corey

is "crashing" the market consistently. There are times when almost everyone "sells the cow" to fund some project or pay income taxes or something. Finding the ones who sell below market consistently will not be as easy as you think. And believe me, they will get the animals they want. These aren't the people setting the market anyway. Someone already said it "once their animals are gone, you're back to regular price."
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Think before you buy and think twice before you sell.......

Brian Potter

Maybe 15-20 range
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Oh, yeah. It's the sound of all the simple recessive breeders laughing their butts off!

"Silly codom-loving mortals! Bwah ha ha!"

Chris
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mean people suck

I still don't know why so many people think simple recessive is a better investment than co-doms. I could understand doms like spiders and pinstripes, but co-doms have their amazing homos too like Super Cinnys, Super Pastels, and not to mention all of the white snakes. Plus, you are never unsure of what you get with a co-dom unlike a simple recessive het. Oh, and how many people want to mix their spider with an albino het as compared to a regular pastel, also a het?

you make a very good point but look at the history or the prices and price drops from co-doms compared to ressesive........they ALL drop but once youve got a nice established group or pieds,albinos,clowns,stripes,caramels,ghosts you are in the drivers seat,,,,,,you then start mixing in the pastels spiders pins and so on.......it does seem more stable but i know what you mean and can be argued either way.......who is right?.....everyone who does what THEY feel THEY need to....who is wrong...everyone who trys to tell others what to do!!!!!!!!co-doms are a quicker return for the small guy who may have a hard time asking the going rates for het stripes as compared to unloading visual mojaves or pins.......but he wil also have to deal with quicker drops in prices........if any ONE person bought ONE male co-dom and bred him to his FULL potential held back ALL males and did the same think of how many he could produce in three years.........are there people out there with these collections who did just that .....WHO KNOWS.......until then ill buy what i can afford and enjoy adding to my wanted list as these awesome animals are born into existance right before our eyes............so keep them coming and enjoy

Pinstripes have yet to be proven as a Dom. trait. There may still be a super in the future.

at least he came out and put what he REALLY wanted for them ............how many adds haev we ALL seen where it says for example 7500 (but call and lets work something out).......im not talking mojaves but any and all morphs in general......i know for A FACT that there are "big breeders" giving DEALS on animals even though they may not be advertised as such.......who knows how many mojaves he has .....lets say he held back two three maybe four makes from a year ago and bred them all to their potential,,,,,,,,DO THE MATH,,,,,,,,you think he will run out tomorrow and the prices will go back up.......there are enough new HIGH dollar morphs out there that he can dump dozens of those and move on to bigger and better projects (co-doms) most likely and do the same thing.....yeah its nice to buy from the big guys and rest assured you got a quality animal but for the savings of thousands of dollars which is more then most in this can afford it would be worth their time and money to actually go themselves and hand pick and pay for those animals............im not saying its right or wrong and im not bashing ANYONE but those are just my thoughts on why it may be worth it to HIM to do what he is doing.......right or wrong they are his.......i payed twice that for my mojave and does it make me say damn i got burned ....NO......my male is breedable now and no matter how low they go i will stil be able to trade and get the morphs i want from people who have what i want and need what i have.......anyway all my best to those in it and all my thanks to those who made it possable.......Jerry Lowry SJS reptiles

I'm not too concerned. I don't need to sell a single mojave to pay my bills. I placed my add today at the same price as last week. It all goes back to supply and demand. If October rolls around and I have 10 males at 700-800 grams, I don't think I'll have a problem selling them, and it sure won't be for bargain basement prices.
I was more upset with the pinstipe price and I don't even own pins. LOL
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Tony Bocanegra

your absolutely right your mojaves will only be worth more and more as they grow...........and by the time the price drops really kick in and some would thnk they are effecting the markets for thos who set the prices those guys are already one step ahead and mixing them up and coming out with the next combo which will hold the values and give them the next bigger deal......so who is really getting hurt by this.............i think the only ones are the people in it JUST for money and scared they bought a stock right before it went sour.......i dont take ANYTHING from those "in it for the money" ....if its your business then you have to be......but those who do this full time had to have biult a serious collection when they still had their days jobs abd have more then enough now to mix and match and stay ontop of the game.........so nobody will lose.........sit back relax and enjoy the morph show its FAR from over

times it's hard, and even amusing to listen to the grumblings. It's all about supply and demand. From what I've learned there will be enormous numbers of Mojaves hatched this year. You can keep them or you can sell them. I'm personally very happy with FIVE FRIGGING THOUSAND DOLLARS for offspring of a snake I paid 10k for. The math works out. I made back all my investment from him and continue to make money "off" him. Most people can't even remotely afford most of the snakes I'm producing; so what is the point? Everyone (well, at least a lot of you all!) seem to want to make a LOT of money. It's no secret that I've done well in business before getting into this ball python market - and unknown to ya'll is that I did it by marketing a valued service for a price affordable to each and every one of my potential customers. I sold to an entire industry and did very well indeed. I didn't set the bar too high for most people to play the game. I see these snake prices approaching ridiculous levels; which began by the major breeders outbidding each other in attempts to get new African imported morphs. Ya'll (I live in Tennessee now, so have to talk this way...) brought this on yourselves. I've also paid plenty for snakes from many of you and have seen the market demolish some of my so-called "investments" - oftentimes through a little bad luck - but just as often through misrepresentation of what was or wasn't being sold to secure or "protect" either my investment or THE MARKET. Who are we kidding? These prices are bordering on stupid and it can't last forever. Hold out for whatever prices you want, and if you get it, all the more power to you. I'm more into the "Everybody can afford a ball python" state of mind, sort've like that Ford guy once espoused to an emerging industrial nation about his little horseless carriages. Some of you want to fix prices? Good luck, you'll be tapping each others' phones soon afterwards. Blackball the bum? Just as many people will align themselves with me. I don't care, do what you want. I have snakes for sale and I love the heck out of keeping, breeding, hatching, just plain staring at them, watching them feed and grow. I love them to death, and have for about thirty years as a breeder. I love my Sanzinia, even though there's not much money in them. My retics are just like dinosaurs to me, but they're difficult to house, as are my Croc monitors. The money is nice, but for me its the Snakes, Stupid! I wish you all well, and if some of you elect ot turn on me (some of you after an awful lot of money spent your way!) then just do it.

Remember to hug your snakes today... Stan Chiras

well stan, the last time i checked i thought i was still in the united states of america, a FREE MARKET where people could sell anything they owned, for whatever price they so desired, without dealing with too much drama, but judging by many comments posted, you would think this was the former soviet union or something!
until the herp community gets over the atmosphere incorporated by what i like to call the "playground effect," we will still be viewed largely as a group of fixated nuts/freaks by lay people/normal americans who don't get pissed off when competitors compete. maybe at the next olympics the runner out in front should get pissed off at anyone who closes distance, and forces them to run faster? can you imagine that? what if carl lewis said "hey guys, don't try to run too fast because if you do, then we'll all have to run faster" why can't people just enjoy the game? IF YOU ARE NOT HAVING FUN, YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT DOING IT FOR THE RIGHT REASON. and if you are overly offended/upset by natural price fluctuations...well...i won't even go there...
i personally wish the greater herp community in general would adopt a more mature view of the business/hobby aspects of breeding rare-reptiles, and engender a new climate of business/hobby etiquette that will break many barriers to the general population, and foster a new age of increased reptile knowlege and husbandry population-wide. I can't believe i even care enough to write this post, but if it helps the herp community grow up a few grams,it will be worth it(lol).

Wouldn't it be great if everybody could afford the ball python of their dreams, and all those mega breeders had to worry about was how to make enough - instead of "how can I get as much as possible out of every thing I produce?"

Stan

free market-supply and demand--there is no avoiding this law--it is a law that works for both in a good and a bad way--but it works no matter what. I myself have sold 3 yellow bellies this year--THATS IT--i am not upset-i only want to sell a few more period-i would have to say that anyone of you condeming stan needs to look at the classifieds more regularly--same ads again ana again, and i am curious stan--did they sell quickly at that price?--i am sure they probably did, but would not be shocked if they did not. Stan has invested heavily in our industry--HEAVILY-and we should be thankful to him, and if wants to sell them for that-let him---alot of ball breeders would have had drier years if not for him. So lets get serious here. We are selling snakes---$5000 is still alot of money for a snake. SO if someone last year bought a male mojave for 10k and bred it to 5 females and produced 15 mojaves and sold them for 5k ea--we are talking a 75k return on a 10k investment in 1 year-it is hard to get those kind of returns in 5 years let alone one!!--come on--Ben Siegel

You know I do this because I love the snakes! I've been breeding since 1976 and haven't tired of it yet. And by the way, I've sold one so far!!!!!!!!! Not shocking at all and I don't mind keeping a hundred of them on the shelves for times when more and more herpers can afford them. Don't ya just love this game Ben?

you are stating a price at which alot of people are probably actually selling their animals at. the higher priced an animal is the better deal you can get if you bargain a little. I don't think anyone on here has said "you want 25k for that snake, here you go". that would just be stupid. it's more like " you want 25k for it, i'll give you 18k" and that's where the dealing begins. to me you just made me think I might be only 4 yr's from hatching a white snake. man that would be great. people are saying you are hurting the market buy stating your lowest price but what you've done is showed the hobbyist that you can still fork out the bucks and make a nice little profit while having a great time. I look at it like this, i've spent more money on snakes this yr than i ever have (over 2k) and am looking forward to spending more at daytona. yeah i plan on being able to make that money back in a few yrs and then every year from then is all profit. eventually whether anyone likes it or not, most morphs will be less than 1k and you will need to sell more of them to make the same profit. one last thing, did everyone forget that it only takes about $100-$200 a yr to house a pair of snakes, any money after that is all profit. and hey if you breed your own rodents that price drops alot.
OH YEAH STAN, WILL YOU BE IN DAYTONA?

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2.0 het pied (RDR, alan bosch)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel)
1.0 het citrus hypo(gulf coast line)
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
6 white eggs from pastel to norm breeding
4 various corns
1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

We're getting ready to have puppies around here from my lover-girl Susie. Now that will be a hatch worth seeing!

LET ME TRY AGAIN.

HEY STAN
WELL I DIDN'T SEE ANYONE TURNING YOUR MONEY DOWN.I THINK YOU PAID ALOT OF MONEY FOR MORPHS.IT'S TOBAD YOU WANT TO MAKE IT AFFORDABLE FOR SM BREEDERS TO GET IN ON PROJECTS.FOR THIS YOU SHOULD BE BLACKBALLED?I ALSO KNOW OF YOUR MORPHS. NOONE HAS
I THINK ALOT OF PEOPLE WILL CHANGE THEIR TUNE WHEN THEY WANT IN ON PROJECTS.HMMM PERSONALY I APRECIATE SOMEONE WHO IS WILLING TO WORK WITH BREEDERS WHO DO NOT HAVE $10000000000000.TO SPEND.AND BELIEVE ME YOU WILL HAVE ALOT OF REPEAT BUISNESS.AND I AM SURE THEY WON'T BLACKBALL YOU.
MIKE

I said it in another reply: what I'm really excited about is my Susie having her pups in a couple weeks. Snakes pale compared to that rascal!!!

Stan

Hey when is she due.How many trophies ?them there puppies otta be goodins.
Well enough country.Man what a great year your having.How bout throwing me a bone? maybe one of them cheap pinstripes LOL Can't wait to see pups.Who's the daddy ?how's faith diggin it.
Talk to you later.Got some new balls i will send pics I call them PUMPKIN BALLS.
Mike

Stan,

I should have read down before emailing..... I agree with the FORD analagy. You buy when it is expensive. Breed and hold back. you put yourself in a much better positon to make money when the price hits rock bottom and you are producing 100 a year.

do the math... 1k/ea 100 animals...as they come down more will buy.

So, anyway ..... How have you been? Still keeping Boelans?? what else is going on? Have not talked to you since I was selling that super tiger.

Mike

and I have four Boelen's, hope to breed them this year (raised from captive born animals) The Royal pythons have been kind to me and I just love the little bowling balls. I keep redefining what I do with herps, but still have my Brooks kings, Sanzinia and a few other little gems just because they're neat.

PS That retic is the most incredible color on earth, huge now. And "No," you can't have it back!!!!

Stay in touch

Stan

Bottom line is they are only worth what people will pay for them. Everything makes a blue eyed white snake now and there's tons of Mojaves out there already so the prices will come down. Shouldn't take a Genius to figure that one out. Stan has more money in this hobby then most everyone (if not 10 times more)who has replied to this post so I don't think anyone should say a word to him. He is an honest person and that's more than can be said about 80% of the largest ball breeders out there today. If you want to be upset about something, just think about the Het Ivory market. That's possibly the most beneficial ball morph out there anywhere and the market dropped 75% before it ever had a chance. I've had big breeders offer me low ball prices on my animals often. Everyone wants a deal no matter what they say here. People should just post the animals for what they will sell them for and then people wouldn't freak when someone posts a morph for what their actually selling for. Lots of things happen in this business that we don't all agree with, but what can you do?

Josh Wolfe

I`m with you Tony, there will be no change in my ads as a result of that classified ad. People forget that balls go up in value as they get older and bigger. I`ll raise my animals and sell them later on. Its nice to know that some people still have backbones. Mark Petros

come on that would never happen..........lets say every breeder in the US "blackballs" him and says noway man no new morphs for you.....doubtfull......... but to show a way around it......joe blow low balls prices and turns everyone away from selling to him.....joe blow calls cousin,neighbor,work buddy,ANYONE and says hey man heres 25k go get me this snake....do you think you are going to have to sign a contract or get somekind of a credit check to give someone 25 thousand dollars .......IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY YOU WILL GET THE SNAKE PERIOD

Green is green.

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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

>>come on that would never happen..........lets say every breeder in the US "blackballs" him and says noway man no new morphs for you.....doubtfull......... but to show a way around it......joe blow low balls prices and turns everyone away from selling to him.....joe blow calls cousin,neighbor,work buddy,ANYONE and says hey man heres 25k go get me this snake....do you think you are going to have to sign a contract or get somekind of a credit check to give someone 25 thousand dollars .......IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY YOU WILL GET THE SNAKE PERIOD
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

While I don't know Stan, I know he's probably been around the herp hobby longer then any three other posters on this thread combined. Sooooo, blackballing him isn't going to do anyone any good and will just make you look silly...... 2nd, unless the mojave you bought is dead or won't breed, there isn't a one of you that won't make money off of them. You may not get as RICH as you wanted to be, but you won't be losing anything either........ 3rd, if ONE person can crash a market, then the market was probably not that strong in the first place and is already badly in need of a price adjustment...... If the market IS as stong as you hope, Stan will sell out of his young freshly hatched mojaves fairly quickly and the rest of you will end up selling your then larger and more well established mojaves for the prices that you want later in the season........ It all works itself out in the end..........

VOT

at last, it's nice to finally see that there are some "grown-ups" (LOL) in the hobby who don't mind when others take advantage of the fact that we won WW2
...oh how i yearn for the distant day when people can feel free to post whatever price they want, sell whatever they want to sell, etc. and not have to deal with the pulp-fiction drama of price-police guestapo(L.O.L)
i certainly understand price-police concerns, pains and overall lament, but i just don't think anyone should be forced to care, and it cracks me up when some actually do publicly...i mean come on! especially in this enlightened age of modern society, and a FREE MARKET that has existed for over 200 years.
i think the lessons learned from what started as a minor post, could actually be a benefit to the overall climate of professional etiquette herp-community wide. this may prove to be a catalyst towards moving the community higher up on the american-scale...no matter, the laws of supply and demand will eventually overrun us all...so why can't we all just get along and "Let It Be"

in such a wad. And there's no limit to how crazy some of these people get. I once posted an ad looking for animals to buy so I could resell them. I made this clear that I was going to resell and even put a suggested price of what I was willing to pay - I need room for profit too. Some guy sends me an email with crap like "you kill me", and "not willing to pay market price". I had to read the email twice. Wow! He was added to my DA file.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

in my opinion,(for what little it is worth the very presence of price-police culture is a sure sign that a market is still in it's infancy stages, far from mature, and that advertised prices/purceived sales dynamics are visionary at best. in other words, as long as price-police culture is accepted to be the social norm within the herp community, and a larger portion of breeders play "make-believe" and advertise for much more than what they'll actually sell for behind closed doors, the market's maturation into legitimacy will probably be stunted.
not to worry, as the reptile industry/hobby/phenomenae evolves into an increasingly mature micro-economy, the banter of price-police wimperings will most assuredly wane. i wonder when the last time was that Ford sent a nasty-gram to Chevy for advertising a Blazer for less than a Bronco???
for those who say they would never sell to someone who advertises prices they don't agree with, i would say that i personally would probably not buy from someone who i know is going to have the gall, and shear un-american audacity to send me nasty-grams if i advertise at a price that is disagreeable to them...ESPECIALLY after i forked out big bucks to buy from them in the first place.
i think what may really be going on here, is that many of the long-term "morph-royalty" are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that the morph market is growing into something bigger than any of them...like an uncontrollable animal that is beginning to strain against it's chains uncontrollably...of course it would be frustrating for anyone to lose a stranglehold on anything...especially hard-earned genes, but the fact is that it is a distinct fact of life! sooner or later the chains will break, and the beast will run it's course, and anyone who tells the elephant to "stop being bad" will look like a moron to an ever-increasing amount of the population.
so, fighting against the laws of supply and deman is even more pointless, immature, and hilarious than watching someone fight against gravity. i agree with stan...now the fun has really begun! why cant we all just do our homework, weigh all possible outcomes, enjoy the ride, and "Let It Be

I think the individual breeder has the right to advertise at any price they want. No arguements. No problem.

However, I don't think dramatically undercutting the market is a very wise business decision.

For instance, if the market price of the Theoretical Morph is $10K across the board, it makes more business sense to advertise for $10K OBO than for $5K firm. If the advertised price is a low $5K, then that is all you would receive. If the advertised price is $10K OBO, you'd probably receive several eager offers of $7K plus. That's at least $2K more per animal. You may still decide to sell the animal at $5K, but you now have the luxury of adding THOUSANDS to your annual profit.

Why limit your income?

The only reason I can see for advertising such low prices is to make the sale before the competition, but I see a few flaws in this theory...

First, nobody spends $10 without shopping around. No need to lure buyers in with a low price. They will call you anyway to ask about your lowest price.

Second, by posting a dramatically low price, the buyer already knows your rock-bottom price. No need to call you first. They will be calling other breeders to see if your low price can be beat. That's bad business. Never give someone a reason to shop the competition first.

Third, as stated above, you've just lost THOUSANDS of potential dollars. The customer may have been willing to pay more, but now you'll never see that extra money.

Again, I believe that a breeder has the right to sell at any price they like without aggressive criticism...but I think it is much wiser to ask market price.

My Opinion,
Chris
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mean people suck

What dictates the market price? Just curious as to your thoughts on this. thanks Ron
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The Crawl Space

What do I think DOES or SHOULD dictate market price? (Two different questions.)

What DOES dictate -- when enough of the animals are produced that breeders can agree on a price that covers demand. (That's a two-parter.) Right now there are only a handful of Ivories available on the market. Some breeders ask $75K, others ask $25K. We cannot establish a market price on these until several are available and the many different breeders sorta just compromise and decide on a price. At this price, if the supply outweighs the demand, we know to lower the price a bit until a balance is reached.

What SHOULD dictate -- rarity x shock appeal = market price. For instance, if the normal phase is $100 and the Piebald is $5000 then the Ivory should probably be at least $10K eack. OTOH, there are quite a few morphs in the $10-$40K range that are barely morphs and do not deserve the high market price. (I won't list these morphs because I don't wish to hurt investments.)

Does that answer your question?

Chris
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mean people suck

>>What SHOULD dictate -- rarity x shock appeal = market price. For

Hmmm. Supply and demand should and ARE dictating the price. Shock appeal is relative to each person and is extremely subjective. Personally, I'd rather have a Pied over an Ivory. The market is working just like it should. People need to learn to accept it and move on. Fighting it will get you no where.

>>-----
>>mean people suck

You bet!
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

"People need to learn to accept it and move on. Fighting it will get you no where."

I totally agree. In fact, I remember posting a similar statement earlier this year:

"And I guess it finally boils down to one thing -- the market is unpredictable. We could talk and guess and theorize all day long.

In the end...all we can do is watch."

Chris
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mean people suck

Chris,
Two answers for the price of one thats what I like about you. For me both answers are supply and demand. The problem I see is people want to base prices on what they paid for their breeder stock. I have a feeling there are alot of Mojaves waiting to hatch and hit the classifieds. Why pay $10,000 for a Mojave if you know there will be a lot available soon at cheaper prices? Unlees your Pete Kahl and can sit on 100 pieds you lower your price or keep the snake. If I could get $5000 for a snake I produced I'd be happy as a pig in slop. Heck in one year I could triple my original investment cost. I don't see how that could make people unhappy. As for the Ivories. If all those people who claim to have the real deal actually produce Ivories that market will come down very quick. The price of YB's is what should have been kept high based on what they can produce using other morphs. Again just my opinion. Ron
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The Crawl Space

"Chris, Two answers for the price of one thats what I like about you."

I aim to please... =)

Chris
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mean people suck

you know, the land of the free, the capitalist society, the best economy in the world. The "breeders" agree on what they want to charge the very few who might be able to afford their overstocked items??? Nobody is going to pay any attention to the snake industry, but what you're suggesting is totally bogus.

Stan

i agree with you chris...you made some really good points here...i never even thought about the fact that low-balling with a price gives the perspective consumer the opportunity to shop all around with everyone else first before calling a low-baller last....in the end though, gravity will win

And do you know what market price is? Do you understand speculation. How about price futures? And how about the benefit of putting a car in every driveway, a refrigerator in every home, a computer in every bedroom and last, but not least, a ball python collection in every home? It's all about the numbers, not your desire to make what you want on a market that is driven by a multitude of factors you have absolutely no control over. Just check the anti trust statutes if you doubt my suggestions. I don't play games. I like to be honest about the price I would like from my animals. Would I like 10k for a Mojave? Not really, that's all my male cost for Pete's sake! His litters would pay him off (pay off my capital investment) in the first year at $1000 each! Drug dealers don't enjoy the ROI that some of you aspire to achieve!!!

Stan

It's great to see all the responses! Thanks

stan

stan....all i can say is this, you sure to seem to have the "business" since about you. a ball collection in every home sounds great to me. way to stand your ground, im with you man. im just one of those i-wish-i-had-one-of-those owners, but with people like you it gives me a chance to someday have some designer morphs of my own. thanks man.

Deal

p.s. untill the government sets the market price for a python, the price can be $1 to whatever you can get. free market system....gotta love it.

Hello,

Please can we stop calling it investments. Investors sit on thier arses spending millions while multi millions flow back in. No customers, no worry about payroll, no concern about keeping the manufacturing equipment at peak performance, no need to worry about anything except the millions in his/her account. The people on this forum on the other hand are not investors like what I just described. What your doing is buying the needed manufacturing equipent to produce what you think is a product in demand. Holy batcrap doesn't it sound an awfully like your running a business. To me it does. My auntie is an investor. Me I'm a busnes owner who has to sell my product to make money. All my auntie has to do is scream at her broker now and again. You may in the truest since of the word be an investor but only in the framework of investing into a businesss you will have to operate. Probably sounds nutty but I haven't had my almond joy today so I hope evevryone on here and the thier loved ones are healthy, wealthy and wise. Take care and be safe. Ciao. Andrew

OK I guess I missed the ad for $5000 mojavies - so I don't know who is selling them or how many he has - but in theory if there are 200 mojavies for sale this year and this guys got like 7 how exactly is that hurting the market? The people buying them are going to breed them and sell them at whatever the price is in the years to come. Unless this person is selling a substantial amount of this years mojaves then I just don't see it doing enough damage to warrant this kind of hostility (LOL) - let him sell his handful for whatever he wants - let some people get a good deal and move on. The smart people will hold the line and make thier profit and that will keep the price stable.

Ya know - I've been told my more than one big breeder that if they have a $5K or $6K dollar animal on the table at a show and someone hands them $4K cash for it then the animals thiers. So lets not pretend undercutting the market doesn't happen.
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

Sometimes people have need for sales to "invest" in other things. Waiting to get more money might make them miss a golden opportunity, like my most recent retic acquisition. Three Mojaves and he's mine now!!! And I stand by my position that more people being able to afford ball pythons is ultimately better for our industry.

Stan

Sorry Tony, I was speaking about Mark.