Reptile & Amphibian Forums

8 total, 5 gray leonis and 3 gray/white milksnake phase. Not the most exciting clutch of thayeri and unfortunately no melanistic, but I sure do like the gray leonis and I was very lucky to get 5 out of the bunch. A small bonus I suppose, is that these light gray leonis are great for any high white project.

Pre-shed.....

White leonis pop and melanistic mom...

All are very nice...congrats.
Jim

Congrats very appreciated, thank you Jim.

Mike

Mike,
I am glad you ventured to pair up those. I really like the way the babies look. There is definitely a lot of melanism in them. Look at the black heads and the dark red bands on the milksnake phase babies. Also, as you stated, white and black make grey.....Cool snakes man...very cool.
John Lassiter

Thanks for the compliments John, I am glad it happened the way it did as well. Normally I don't think most of us would have paired these two up having had other options, and I know that I wouldn't have. I see not a hint of yellow, peach or orange in any of the babies... on the tail tips, cheeks or anywhere which really surprises me and may be an advantage if I hold one back for the white project. I would have expected a blush of something from the female but apparently, and hopefully, it doesn't exist or at least is very distant in her lineage and may not present itself through her offspring. Eliminating as much as possible any blush of ground color in whites and nice gray examples would be very desireable.

One of the milksnake phase babies has an extremely dark gray ground color, and a lot of washed out black in the saddles. If this one is male I will raise him up for breeding back to the female, regardless I plan to hold one pair from this clutch in hopes to at some time produce the elusive melanistic thayeri. Each year for the first few, I will use a different male from a completely different bloodline with this melanistic adult female in order to put together a solid melanistic project. Of course, at some point I am sure that killer young melanistic male will come my way from another source to help things along some.

Lots of work lies ahead, and tons of fun to make it all worthwhile!

Mike

That one DOES look alot like an alterna. Cool looking thayeri. I'd definately hold that one back especially if it's a male to breed to both its mama for melanism and for your white project. That gray on most of them looks very alterna like. Nice clutch Mike.

Chris G

Thanks Chris, I am actually needing that one pictured solo to be female for the white project, I need a couple more good females for the two males I have. There is another that is a bit darker gray with just outstanding markings, narrow even saddles with red and slightly washed out centers, thin black borders and great nuchal pattern that would work just as well. As I mentioned to John, I plan to keep a pair to work into both projects and I think I may come out ok on this one.

Truthfully, this was a very interesting clutch to hatch out. As you know, it was this females first clutch and she dropped it a bit early and had me concerned. Out of the 14 eggs, 8 of them were severely under developed and still connected, small and round like a string of pearls with very weak and translucent ends. 4 of those developed well through incubation, with the ends never calcifying. 2 weeks prior to pipping, 2 of these weak-ended eggs actually ruptured slightly under pressure from the developing embryo, enough to ooze a significant amount of fluid and I expected that to be the end for those. But they hung in there by some miracle, and perfectly healthy hatchlings emerged. All 4 of the weak-ended eggs I incubated hatched normally. Very cool stuff.

Mike

Nice looking clutch Mike. They actually have a wild look to them and the patterns are awesome. I sure do miss the Papa, but I own his little brother and should be able to breed him next year to a white female and an F-1 female.

Greg Huston

Thanks a lot Greg, you know without your help this clutch wouldn't have been possible. I can't thank you enough for letting this splendid male come here the way you did, very gracious of you to offer him to say the very least and I certainly know you must indeed miss having him around. What a placid and enjoyable snake to have, and it is obvious he is going to be quite productive. You raised him exceptionally well. If you would ever like to have him back for a season of breeding, just let me know.

You know that I like the wild ones as much as anyone, in reality this is a very interesting clutch of thayeri to me and I am glad it happened. I agree, they have a great wild and classic look to them and it is obvious that everyone here is a true mexicana lover by the kind responses. I like that.

Good luck next year with your whites if it happens, that pair you still have should produce some exceptional examples. We know that they come from the very best whites available at any price.

Take care Greg.

Mike

Nice Mike. You can definitely see the melanistic influence. I bet when you breed those together you'll find another white animal or two. You never know. The leonis animals definitely have an alterna look to them. Btw, here's also an idea. Try breeding your white phase male to Cherrios next year I bet you'll be jumping for joy. Well, maybe. Or atleast contact me and give me the news. hehe. Take care man!
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Jonel @ Selective Propagations
www.spsnakes.com

Thanks Jonel, agreed it is very obvious the melanistic influence is there and... how did you know that Cherrios is on the schedule at some point for the white males?!! Along with the orange ones?!! Could it be her amazingly clean ground color that is worth its' weight in gold for any project to produce clean color?!! This extreme lack of speckling with your thayeri are what make yours so incredibly special... not to mention the killer orange you are now producing! MAN you made great progress with that this year! Congrats!

And don't worry... you will always be in the loop of what your two girls here produce and as I mentioned to you earlier, I am in the market for at least another male/female pair from you. But you know I only want the very best you can offer so show me what you can do!

Take care my friend.

Mike

granted they are not as bright as the yellow and orange ones but I really like the "Raiders" look of silver and black. I hatched a few Raider thayeri this year and they may be keepers.

Good job.
Russ

Thanks Russ, I am glad you can appreciate them as we all seem to. I don't really see too many nice gray thayeri around and I expect it is due to the interest and value in the intense colored animals everyone likes so much. They certainly don't appear too difficult to produce. I have been keeping my eyes open for some nice gray examples over the last 2 years and look what happens.

As Pvt. Pyle would say... surprise, surprise, surprise! A clutch full of "Raider" thayeri!

Mike

Man, what a beautiful clutch. When you first posted the pairing, I thought just a couple of them might be grey and thought at least one or two would be melanistic.
All looked superb.
I wonder if any of those dark milksnake phase will over time and age get closer to looking like a melanistic.
I know my Neuvo Leon thayeri milksnake phase was a brilliant dark red with white and black bands. Every shed as he get's older he's getting darker and darker with more black tipping especially on the white.
Congrats,
Uncloudy

Chris,
Most thayeri go through that small ontogenetic change. Nearly all of them speckle out to some degree, but there are those fantastic exceptions that we are all looking for that do not speckle one bit.
I venture to guess that the female milksnake phase that Mike hatched out will get darker than the males. That is if there is a male and female of each to compare. Just my opinion based on some observations with other Mexicana and Ruthveni.
John Lassiter

...I really appreciate your compliment as I have everyone's here. It really feels great to know that so many here appreciate these babies along with the incredibly bright colored ones. Shows me that we all enjoy these animals for what they are, as well as enjoying the seemingly infinite possibilities they offer, and not just seeing them only as a brilliant showpiece... although this is of course the ultimate for any of us! I honestly didn't know what to expect with regard to the responses when posting the photos but I must say that I am quite impressed.

I can't say that I understand exactly how melanism behaves in thayeri, but I am sure it is quite the same as with any other kingsnake/milksnake that carries it. I do know that it appears in varying degrees and that it is said to be a recessive trait. We also know that many examples that aren't considered melanistic will darken or dull a bit with age, develop varying dergees of dark speckling, and some will "gray out" within their ground color with maturity, such as your male milksnake phase. Melanism seems to be yet another separate trait with it's own set of rules. It is more of a total overcast of black pigment that overlays everything in varying "shades" of black if you will, some just not as intense or saturated as others. I have seen several hatchling and juvenile melanistic thayeri, all with different levels of melanism and they all appear to have been airbrushed with black all over and not just in certain areas or as a speckling effect. The darker examples simply appear to have been sprayed with a few more light coats of black, if that makes any sense.

One of these milksnake phase hatchlings for example, clearly shows this overall light coating of black and I certainly do expect it to darken dramatically when it begins to mature into adult stage. But it will never be one of the completely saturated specimens such as it's mother. She is completely jet black. Everywhere. Dorsal, ventral, laterally, tip of the nose, under her chin..... literally every single bit of her is saturated with this black, and this is what I am eventually after.

Thanks again Uncloudy, talk to you later.

Mike

Congratulations Mike! That is a great looking clutch of thayeri. It's nice to finally see some non-orange specimens! I'm curious to know what the melanstic animal's parents looked like. Can you describe or have pix?

Also, the amount of black in those milksnake morphs is not due to the dam being melanistic. That trait is from the white sire. I have bred white x white many times and have produced milksnake morphs just like that.

Take care.

DV

Thanks Dan, it means a lot coming from you and I expected you to show an interest in this clutch. Not because you produced that mighty fine white male, but because I know that you have always had a keen interest in variability, particularly when you were going full speed ahead with your thayeri programs. One of the things I always appreciated about your pairings was the high desree of variability they produced. Unfortunately I can't provide any background information on this female other than the breeder who produced her, a gentleman by the name of Mike Ferr, who I understand produced a significant number of some of superior melanistics. I acquired her second-hand from a man by the name of Dr. Steve House and that is all that I know. Knowing how relentless I am about keeping background history on my animals, you can understand I am at a terrible loss not knowing more and having file photos of at least her parents.

I agree with you with regard to the 3 milksnake phase being characteristic of their father's lineage. However, and not simply for the sake of being contradictory, one of them is considerably darker overall than the others. See photos below showing both ends of the scale between the three, with the third (not pictured) being somewhere in between these two. I can't help but believe that this is a mild melanistic influence knowing that melanism isn't an all or nothing scenario. Correct me again if I am wrong, and tell me what you know about melanism in these animals and how it behaves.

The darkest and lightest of the three milksnake phase giving a better perspective.....