Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am seriously considering purchasing a pair or more of hets for a morph. I'm not sure what I want yet (well, thats' not true, piebald!Yeah baby!)but that's just not feasable right now. I'm looking to spend between $100-$250 each. So what I need to know is: which 100% hets would be in this price range? And, if any of you who post here would have any available in the next six months or so, or know anyone who has, please e-mail me. I was thinking along the lines of albinos, ghosts, or pastels.

Any advice om how to recognize hets for pastel or anything else would also be greatly appreciated, so that I know what to look for when I go to Daytona this year.

Here's a weird question, has anyone ever considered studding out their males? I understand that there are cross contamination issues and all, but is it totally out of the question?

Bulldawger

Can't help on the pricing, but if soeone tries to sell you a "het for pastel" that looks normal, walk away. Pastel is a codominant mutant gene, which means that the heterozygous pastels look like neither a normal nor a homozygous pastel. Pastels are heterozygous for pastel. Homozygous pastel is called opal.

Paul Hollander

O.K., so what does one look like? Is it true that they have pale or yellow eyes? Or is their coloring different? If anybody had a pic of one that would be great.
What about ghosts? Do their hets look any different than normals?

Bulldawger

Look at the Markus Jayne Reptiles website, they have a lot of pictures and a good write up on pastels. I've included a link.

Mark

>>O.K., so what does one look like? Is it true that they have pale or yellow eyes? Or is their coloring different? If anybody had a pic of one that would be great.
>>What about ghosts? Do their hets look any different than normals?
>>
>>Bulldawger
Markus Jayne reptiles

I don't mean to be rude or curt, but you asked this same question a month ago. Instead of asking it again, scroll down, or do a little research: go to some of the breeders' websites, and e-mail them. Also, regarding being able to tell by looking at a het that it is, in fact, a het; there is no way at all. Buy from a reputable breeder.

Actually, no I diddn't. I've only been on this forum for just over a week now. Maybe you are reffering to the posts about the ringers? If so that was a specific question about the ringer pattern, and not about hets in general.

Bulldawger

My bad. You are correct, I apologize. Regardless, contact some breeders, and see what they're selling het morphs for. For $200 you're looking at a 100% het for normal. Save up your pennies, and when you have closer to $1000, buy yourself a pastel male from Markus Jayne, you'll be producing pastels in two years. Good luck.

O.K., so what does one look like? Is it true that they have pale or yellow eyes? Or is their coloring different? If anybody had a pic of one that would be great.

What about ghosts? Do their hets look any different than normals?

Bulldawger

NO
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

First let me say I am NOT in any way trying to be rude so please don't take it that way...
I don't think you understand pastels. If you want to hatch a pastel, you have to have a pastel. There is no het pastel. If you breed a pastel to a normal, you don't get hets you get normals and pastels. If you breed a pastel to a pastel you get a super pastel, maybe some pastels, and some normals. No pastel hets. For that price you will be able to get a het (ghost or albino) male and a Poss het. female. Good luck!
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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

Ghost hets look COMPLETELY normal as do all hets.
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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

Thank you, and you're right. I honestly don't have any idea about the genetics of balls. (That's why I'm asking) So please be patient with me as I try to learn all that I can.I've until recently been only marginally interested in bp morphs. It wasn't untill I saw a yearling green ghost, and a gorgeous super pastel at the F.I.R.E. expo in Orlando that I decided I'd like to have some. Mostly we deal with blood pythons, frog-eyed geckos, and we recently got a pair of Uroplatus sikorae (mossy leaf-tailed geckos) and a pair of black-throat monitors, and American Pit Bull Terriers (all on a very small scale). I've always had a ball python though, and with my job I bring them home all the time.

Bulldawger

No problem, I am always happy to help a herper! Or in some cases be helped BY a herper!
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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

Actually, when you breed two pastels, you're chances of getting a super pastel is only 25%. That's 25% per egg, not 25% per clutch. If they were, in fact, that easy to get, they would not be $15,000 - $20,000.

You're right, I stated it wrong, sorry.
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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

Same as het x het breeding albino, pied, ghost, etc.
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

What exactly should I look for to detect a pastel? I have a feeling I may have spotted a few at work.

a BRIGHT animal, Big difference from a normal, yes lighter eyes, and some fading. They also have pale tongues. Do a search on the archives (old forums) for pastel and look at everything with a picture. Here is a good link for pastel pics.
Pastel Pics.

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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

and one that looks like this...

Dave

There is exactly ONE normal in this picture and exactly ONE Pastel in this picture. Guess which one is which?

The difference is night and day.

.
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I haven't heard of that name being applied to Super Pastels, but I like it better then Super Pastel. It's more discriptive too.

VOT

That is what Kevin at NERD called the first one when he produced it. I guess it just didn't stick and since there was already a precedence for the "super" = homozygous co-dominant from the Super Tiger retic most everyone just went that way. Fewer names to remember anyway.

It’s hard to change a naming convention once it gets going. Some tried to change “Ghost” to “Hypomelanistic” and had some success but can’t quite seem to kill “Ghost” which some feel should be reserved for an Axanthic Hypomelanistic combination from the corn snake world.

Maybe in the perfect world once the Opal was produced we should have changed “Pastel Jungle” to “heterozygous Opal” but that would never happen. Who knows how all the different looking leucistic types are going to be referred to but the Barker’s attempt to pre-name them by number met with some resistance.

"Heterozygous" is defined as having a pair of nonidentical genes. So a ball python with one normal gene paired with one albino mutant gene is a heterozygous albino. And a ball python with one normal gene paired with one pastel mutant gene is a heterozygous pastel. This is standard genetics.

When a recessive mutant gene is paired with the normal gene, the animal looks normal. That's part of the definition of "recessive". That's why albino is called a recessive mutant. A heterozygous albino (one normal gene and one albino gene) looks normal, and a homozygous albino (with a pair of identical albino genes) looks albino.

When a dominant or codominant mutant gene is paired with the normal gene, the animal does NOT look normal. That's part of the definition of "dominant" and "codominant". An animal that is heterozygous dominant (one normal gene and one dominant gene) looks like an animal that is homozygous dominant (with a pair of identical dominant genes). An animal that is heterozygous codominant (one normal gene and one codominant gene) looks like neither an animal that is homozygous codominant (with a pair of identical codominant genes) nor like a homozygous normal (with a pair of identical normal genes).

Pastel is called a codominant mutant gene because the heterozygous (one pastel gene/one normal gene) pastels do not look like either normals or super pastels. Heterozygous pastels do not look normal. A heterozygous pastel ball python is called a pastel. A super pastel ball python is homozygous for pastel (has two identical pastel genes). A super pastel ball python does not look like a pastel ball python.

Saying that all hets look normal is NOT TRUE. An animal that is heterozygous for a RECESSIVE mutant looks normal. An animal that is heterozygous for a DOMINANT or CODOMINANT mutant does not look normal.

Lastly, the terms "dominant", "codominant", and "recessive" are man made, separate terms, like "black" and "white". Nature is sloppy and produces shades of gray. If a heterozygote USUALLY looks normal, then we call the mutant gene a recessive. Pick the term that best fits the actual results, even if it is not an exact fit.

Paul Hollander

Simply put, there is no way to tell a simple recessive gene het from a normal by physical examination.

Nicole

If you work where I think you do given by the information in the ringers thread, talk to the redhead there that plays with the fat-tails, I hear she knows a thing or two about ball pythons....

I don't want to confuse the current discussion any more but you bring up a good point ...

So, are the pattern mutations that SOMETIMES show in hets really recessive? I think the jury is still out on whether or not there are any such pattern mutations in ball pythons but I've seen good evidence that puzzle and leopard Burmese pythons are the sporadically visible hets for the granite and green pattern mutations respectively. Why do these sometimes show and sometimes (most of the time?) not in hets? Does that make them some kind of co-dominant and not really recessive?

I'd throw those in the same category as paradox albinos...in other words, who knows LOL

Nicole

For that price, you will only get males however. Look on the classifieds...you should be able to get a male-het for ghost for $100-I did and from a reputable breeder. For $200-250 you can get a male het for albino with no problem. Other than that you are probably looking at possible hets for most other morphs. Breed your het males to normal females and you get 50% possible hets. Breed these poss het females back to Dad and you should get what you are looking for. The downside is the time factor. To do this you are looking at several years, but hey...its a really cheap way to get your morphs. Pastels are the visable hets...there are no normal looking hets for pastel, as was already mentioned. Check out any number of the breeder websites on the forum page (just above the posts). They all have nice pics to look at. Hope this helps.

Go on to Kingsnake.com Classifieds, find the Ball Python Classifieds and look down until you see the Ad titled Best Price on Het Orange Ghosts by Corey Estill. BUY A HET PAIR. His prices are good, and his animals are very nice. I actually have a het orange ghost female from him, and she is very nice, eats well etc. I have a few eggs incubating right now, an orange ghost bred to my unproven hypo female, they should be hatching in about 2 weeks. I hopefully will have ghosts, but may have all 100% hets. Anyways, buy your het pair from Corey, like $350 for the pair! After you do this, REALLY research Ball Genetics. Do not buy the pair unless you know how to care for them!

Dave

Thank you for the pics. I have been to the classifieds, but I don't trust most of the adds there. I've seen adds for"pastels" with pythons that were more orange or red. Do the pastels come in these other shades as well as the yellow?

I will vouch for Corey, he is a good guy, and has a nice male that he made his hets with. On your budget, I would get a $350 pair of het ghosts in a second!! Forget the pastel, you will not find one for under $800, and you need to do alot more research on them and understanding gentics. A nice inexpensive het pair of ghosts will be a great start!

Dave

pastels change shades of colors as they get older. mine have lost their lime green on top and have darkened a bit with age in the few months since they hatched.

Go with Corey, he's a good guy. I haven't bought from him but know people who have and have corresponded with him some. If I had the ready money right now, I'd get some from him myself.

VOT

I actually might get a male from him if he still has them when I figure out if I can afford it, (or have mommy aford it )
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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

For that price, you will only get males however. Look on the classifieds...you should be able to get a male-het for ghost for $100-I did and from a reputable breeder. For $200-250 you can get a male het for albino with no problem. Other than that you are probably looking at possible hets for most other morphs. Breed your het males to normal females and you get 50% possible hets. Breed these poss het females back to Dad and you should get what you are looking for. The downside is the time factor. To do this you are looking at several years, but hey...its a really cheap way to get your morphs. Pastels are the visable hets...there are no normal looking hets for pastel, as was already mentioned. Check out any number of the breeder websites on the forum page (just above the posts). They all have nice pics to look at. Hope this helps.