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This clutch of 14 eggs was sired by my big "Bruiser" Brooks King. The mama is a nice Goini King I picked up from Outback Reptiles in the summer of 2003.

Most of the babies came out with high amounts of orange on wide crossbands. Some came out with more yellow and the bands are a lot more narrow.

Anyway, take a look (3 pics in this post) and tell me what you think...

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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
2005 Available List
ECC Email

Very nice... i esp. like the snake in the middle pic. i performed the same cross this season with a lavender albino Brooks and a Goini with a nice Chain pattern (first time breeder... 13 good eggs)... i'm still wait'n for the eggs to hatch

hope i get an interesting clutch as well... thanx for share'n

~ZF

Awesome as always guys!! Are Goinis also a Florida locale specimen?

Goini are a separate Subspecies on their own.. they were once thought to be Brooksi X Eastern...
I'm not 100% about the origin but i think the original Subspecies are Menseni and when they intergrade with Eastern Kings you get Goini.

Goini are my 2nd favorite kingsnake... they are a very variant subspecies and i'm sure they'll be fun to work with...
ZF's Goini collection

Goini are a separate Subspecies on their own.. they were once thought to be Brooksi X Eastern...
I'm not 100% about the origin but i think the original Subspecies are Menseni and when they intergrade with Eastern Kings you get Goini.

Goini are my 2nd favorite kingsnake... they are a very variant subspecies and i'm sure they'll be fun to work with...

"Goini" never were thought to be Brooksi X Eastern. Brooksi, as you may know, only exist in Southern Florida. "Goini" or "Meansi" or Apalachicola Kingsnake as I like to call them, are only found in a small area in the panhandle, the Apalachicola National Forest/Tates Hell State Forest and surrounding areas. In this region, the Apalachicola King intergrades with Easterns producing your basic dark blotched specimens like the one pictured below.

I'm fairly New to the world of kingsnake compared to other members on this forum.... time and time again i see a post where an "experience" herper/Breeder say they believe Goini are Eastern X brooksi... some people still think they are Brooksi X Goini.

But thanx for the info.

~ZF

I'm fairly New to the world of kingsnake compared to other members on this forum.... time and time again i see a post where an "experience" herper/Breeder say they believe Goini are Eastern X brooksi... some people still think they are Brooksi X Goini.

But thanx for the info.

It used to be believed that "goini" were the result of Florida X Eastern Kings. Brooksi are the lighter, southern form of the Florida King and Brooksi used to be recognized as a subspecies but is not anymore. Because of the range of Brooksi and the very limited range of "goini", they are too far apart to intergrade. Florida Kings on the other hand extend much farther north in Florida where they do intergrade with Easterns all the way over to Jacksonville. Florida Kings do not exist around the area where "goini" are found though. Only Eastern Kings surround this area.

I've been herping in the Apalachicola National Forest, Tates Hell State Forest, and surrounding areas looking for Apalachicola Kings several years now...I live in Tallahassee so I'm able to get out there ALOT. I've found quite a few getula around here and speaking from experience, I can say Brooksi do not exist up here nor do they intergrade naturally with "goini". If you don't believe me, ask some of the other people on here like Keith Hillson.

Sean,

Thanks for the info. I believe that you are the only one on this forum that actively looks for the Goini Kings in their natural range.

I always thought that Floridana and Goini were natural intergrades... I am glad that you pointed out that Goini only intergrade with Easterns.

I think my new babies are neat looking anyway and there is nothing wrong with a little "hybrid vigor"; which these babies surely have!
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
2005 Available List
ECC Email

Sean,

I think my new babies are neat looking anyway and there is nothing wrong with a little "hybrid vigor"; which these babies surely have!
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids

Peter, originally "goini" were thought to be a relict intergrade between Florida and Eastern Kings. Some still believe this to be true even though FL. Kings no longer exist up here. It is thought that FL. Kings once existed here though and that is how the "goini" originated. Either way, TODAY "goini" only intergrade with surrounding populations of Eastern Kings.

One thing I find interesting is the populations of getula East of here over towards Jacksonville. They are labeled as Florida X Eastern intergrades. So if "goini" are FL. X Easterns why hasn't anyone ever found a patternless, striped, or wide banded, light-blotched specimen like those only found over here?

This is one of the most interesting posts that I've read. So, goini's are most likely a Florida x Eastern right? Then can any of you tell me what the clutch would come out to be like if a Hypo Brooksi (which is a southern Florida locale right?)were to be crossed with a Eastern? Or what about a Hypo Brooksi crossed with a Goini?

Both Hypo Brooksi X Eastern and Hypo Brooksi X Goini have been done "jetzen" had a nice example of Hypo Brooksi X Eastern that he calls Muttly and "bluerosy" has a nice example of a hypo Brooksi X Goini

~ZF

hypo floridana-X-eastern

One of the true stars of the kingsnake forum!!! Hey JETZEN, when you gonna get his scutes put in the sidewalk in Hollywood, LOL!?
Todd Hughes

lol!,here he is again

Muttly is Gorgeous!! Do you have any pics of the other ones that were hatched along with him? Any pics of the parents? I believe that's what I'm gonna breed my hypo. brooksi with, an Eastern Chain! Rock on, thanks Jetzen!

Rainer(bluerosy)is the one who produced muttly and has posted pics of muttly's gorgeous parents, maybe he'll do it again if you ask him.
here's another pic of "MUTTLY"

This is one of the most interesting posts that I've read. So, goini's are most likely a Florida x Eastern right?

I need to correct myself on that last post. I meant to say FL. Kings do NOT exist in the area where "goini" do. It is thought that they ONCE did and it is thought that "goini" MIGHT be a relict intergrade between FL. and Eastern Kings but this has not been proven and probably never will.

"goini" or Apalachicola Kings are believed to be a distinct subspecies. They naturally intergrade with Eastern Kings and I would say FL Kings have nothing to do with them. When you think "goini", throw FL Kings out of the picture. This is why I made a comment about the kings found just west of here over towards Jacksonville. Easterns and FL Kings intergrade over there yet you do not find any patternless, striped, or wide banded, light colored specimens. Obviously, if "goini" were a FL X Eastern, then you'd find "goini" across N FL over to Jacksonville. But you don't! "goini" are completely surrounded by Easterns and they naturally intergrade with Easterns and nothing else.

Hope that clarifies some things.

It would seem likely that Brooksi are the true Florida king, kept pure by their existence in the southern part of Florida, and what we call the Florida king is a cross of eastern and Brooksi thus giving us a darker Brooksi (i.e Florida king).

Considering what happens to wild populations of snakes due to development, weather trends and etc. it seems difficult to assume that the ranges of given snake subspecies are the exact same today as they were for all of the snakes’ existence. They were likely much, much larger in the past, especially considering a lack of geographical barriers (i.e. mountains).

We will never know what the ranges of certain species were a million or so years ago but the fact is, we know what exists where right now. FL Kings MAY have covered the entire state of Florida at one time...even Eastern Kings may have dominated...but that still doesn't mean that the Apalachicola King is a relict FL X Eastern intergrade. I think it's very important to look at the range where Florida Kings intergrade with Easterns today and see what is being produced. You don't get Apalachicola Kings in that range. It's quite obvious that the Apalachicola King evolved into it's own uniqueness and I believe it to be distinct from all other getula. Just because people believe one thing doesn't make it true. And the fact that so many people have bred Brooksi/FL Kings with "goini" still has not produced patternless/striped/wide banded light-colored specimens. Ask Bluerosy...he's bred these...yet he still hasn't produced an Apalachicola king from this cross.