Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In response to the deadliest snake thread, I have a question. Is the saw-scale really 16 times more toxic than a Russells? Russells are extremely hot. I can see how a saw-scale may be hotter due to less venom delivery but 16 times hotter?

Thanks,
Dan

Yeah, it could well be. This is from Minton & Minton's Venomous Reptiles:

Echis carinatus: venom yield: 20-35 mg Estimated ld for human adult: "Unusually toxic for man. Lethal dose may be as small as 3-5 mg.

Vipera (sic..book is old)russelli: VY: 130-250mg Human ld
70-75mg

If my math is working, that puts the saw-scaled capable of putting down seven with one bite, and the Russell's at two.
That's not 16 times, but there does seem to be a fair gap between the two.

~~Greg~~

Like a lot of things on that list, I suspect they pulled it out of the air. You'll notice that they HAVE a saw-scaled...

I quick look at Dr. Fry's site shows that saw-scaled and russel's venoms are both all over the map depending on locality. The most potent russel's is actually MORE potent than the most potent saw-scaled, but the most potent saw-scaled is 8 (not 16) times more potent than the LEAST potent russels.

Again, this illistrated the vagueries of putting together anything like a top 10 list. Do you go with the strongest locality/subspecies or do you list each separately in which case 3 species might take care of the whole top 10.

>>Like a lot of things on that list, I suspect they pulled it out of the air. You'll notice that they HAVE a saw-scaled...

Of course while I was typing this, Greg was posting info that shows how wrong I am.

I was going by MOUSE LD50. I hadn't seen an estimate for HUMAN LD. I guess I need a copy of that book...

we have 3 forms of Echis and 2 forms of D. russelli....
You pick the snakes on YOUR list and I would be willing to bet we have them to. Thats not the emphasis so get off the soapbox.

The list is old for cryin out loud, that has been planely stated.

It was broken down to the specific, not the sub-specific level. Don't forget taxonomy has changed alot since then.

Also, the discussion that was not included in the original post takes into account "the most venomous" and "the deadliest" so pitching a fit about EDB and Coralsnakes is not relavent.

I responded to this thread because it was our site and because it was a different topic than the "I hate professionals thread" and thought it would be a change of pace.

I guess some people like to argue about anything...reminds me of my wife.
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Hi:

I try not to get into this type of comparison (apples to oranges)because all of the real data is in mouse LD's I do know from observation that Sawscales (I have 3 species) is not a snake to get tagged by. They have incrediable "Knock Down" ability when it comes to prey for a very small snake. They prefer live or PK to FT, so I feed live if they don't eat for a few cycles. The mouse is alive for mear seconds after the strike, whereas, it is closer to a minute with many of the other snakes I keep. The mouse basically falls on it's back, gets stiff, wets itself...that's it!! maybe gets 3 inches from the point of impact. These mice basically "Stroke" out in the matter of seconds.

Al

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"Fighting on the forums is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded."

DH June 2005

I havent kept saw scaleds before, but have kept D. russelli russelli, short term, and in the same token as the last reply..just from witnessing how quickly they drop their prey, with a bite, I can guarantee that it isnt an animal to get bitten by..the best thing I can compare how quickly their venom acts on live prey, is to say thats its like watching an animal thats been shot..they drop almost immediately after the bite, and are dead within a few seconds. Regardless of the actual potency of either of those snakes, the fact is both are extremely dangerous animals, and a bite from either, is serious bad news..its very easy to see why locals, where both species occur, fear and respect these animals like they do. Incredible animals, and both equally as capable of delivering a fatal bite to a human.