Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The more critically endangered a species is, the more it is regulated, thus the harder it is to get. (for a non-zoo or institution) This is what I've been told by many.

Aside from that, why do we never hear of species coming available (to hobbyists) like the Orinoco, or the black caiman or the slender-snouted crocodile or the acutus? (Insert your species of choice here). Do they all fall under the "endangered so very hard to get" category? Or is there something else?

I would dump my girlfriend, and tap my savings to get a hold of some of these really rare species (kidding, about the savings anyway ), but it seems even w/ the proper permits, you still don't hear of them coming available. But yet I've seen Albino Alligators available online recently???

I'm really just looking to understand the whole crocodile trade more, as I've only been 'around' for a few years. Perhaps some of you that have been doing this for a while can help me understand more.

Any response MUCH APPRECIATED.

Thanks,
Greg

the Orinoco being one in particular.

Second of all, no one needs to have crocs in captivity, just for a hobby. People keep them, just as something to show off. If you do desire one, you'll get the same experience/fulfillment by observing a nile, or New Guinea croc or an alligator. The need to have one just because "its rare" isn't even a worthy reason to have them. Its just a show off piece and not helping conserve them at all.

I'd love to have an acutus, but I can get the same message across by using a Nile/Morlet's hybrid for demonstations....its still a croc---They all bite like Heck!!

Matt,
I respectfully disagree. For me, my long term goal would to be able to provide at the least, some sort of educational opportunity for those who may never come into contact or know anything about crocodilians. And at best, to someday have a place like a gatorland, or a St. Augustine. They all had to start small at some point right?

I do agree that I can get the message across w/ a single common species, such as an American Alligator. But bragging rights is not my motive. My friends and acquaintences, who are the majority of the people I display to and teach, for now, could give less of a crap whether it is a "common old" American Alligator or if it's something as magnificant as a Tomistoma.
To them it's just a "gator".

But for me, I've begun to really desire to collect as many species as I can, and perhaps eventually breed them, to someday evolve to some type of institution that can aid in conservation and education.

My motive in my original post, is to try and understand if it's "just the laws" that prevent us from seeing some of these more rare species on the market or if there is something else to it. It could be a number of things.

Nonetheless, I know there are people on this board w/ as many years experience w/ crocodilians as I am old. I humbly am hoping to get insight from them that I can have some kind of impact, no matter how small it may or may not be, in educating people on crocodilians.

Respectfully,
Greg

..then you would have little difficulty acquiring them at that point. But, by then you would be a bonafide educational facility.

But, to answer your question, about such animals being available to private individuals(i.e., as pets or just to collectors) I think it would(and should) be very difficult to obtain such animals.

Do the leg work, and develop your facility. You may need to think eventually, becomign AZA accredited. The politicis of the zoo profession/USFW/CITES/ESA, etc. may dictate that you need to go this route...BUT, it can be done!

Good luck,
MCH

Under the grounds of just casual ownership, I could understand. However, for an individual such as myself who would one day like to truly make an impact in the world of conservation for crocodilians, just keeping an American Alligator to show, isn't necessarily going to help. I personally can't think of any zoo or park in the northern (colder) states that have all 23 species of crocs. I would like to have that one day (as part of a reptile zoo) here in Ohio. My idea of keeping these animals would not be for the benefit of saying I have a large and dangerous reptile, but because I would like to show the world (and more specifically my state), another side to these magnificent animals. Personally, I wouldnt' do it in Florida (it's already been done numerous times), but up in the northern states, not too many people get to see this.

Yes that will be a greater challenge as most of everything will need to be indoors. But it would still be worth it to me. But like Gregg said, it's not always just about having a "pet".

I dont typically like to argue a point with someone of higher knowledge and experience than myself, but just thought I would make mention of my stand point.

Sorry for the babbling and Best Wishes,

Chris

>>the Orinoco being one in particular.
>>
>>Second of all, no one needs to have crocs in captivity, just for a hobby. People keep them, just as something to show off. If you do desire one, you'll get the same experience/fulfillment by observing a nile, or New Guinea croc or an alligator. The need to have one just because "its rare" isn't even a worthy reason to have them. Its just a show off piece and not helping conserve them at all.
>>
>>I'd love to have an acutus, but I can get the same message across by using a Nile/Morlet's hybrid for demonstations....its still a croc---They all bite like Heck!!

..and I agree, IF, you wish to open up a facility, such as St. Augusting, where you'll be open to the public, then you likely would be able to obtain such specimens.

BUT, the original post asked why such species were not available to "Hobbyists" wich is to say, "Collectors". That, is why I answered the way I did. You, as well, will likely have to build and establish the facility, and become AZA accredited or establish a very good reputation and relationship between yourself and St. Augustine or another zoo who has the species, before they will send any surplus to you.

IF, you try to acquire them, simply as an individual, simply to maintain....it will be nearly impossible to obtain them.

That's all. Good luck, establishing a croc facility.

MCH

In that case, perhaps I should have read a little closer. But ok, when it is put that way, then I agree. Rare species should not be accessible by private people for the MOST part. Just to keep them to be keeping them, then probably not.
Thanks for the clarification.

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>..and I agree, IF, you wish to open up a facility, such as St. Augusting, where you'll be open to the public, then you likely would be able to obtain such specimens.
>>
>>BUT, the original post asked why such species were not available to "Hobbyists" wich is to say, "Collectors". That, is why I answered the way I did. You, as well, will likely have to build and establish the facility, and become AZA accredited or establish a very good reputation and relationship between yourself and St. Augustine or another zoo who has the species, before they will send any surplus to you.
>>
>>IF, you try to acquire them, simply as an individual, simply to maintain....it will be nearly impossible to obtain them.
>>
>>That's all. Good luck, establishing a croc facility.
>>
>>MCH

C. intermedius is listed as "Critically endangered" in the IUCN Red List. There are only a few individuals in AZA institutions in the US, no one in Europe ( as far as I know).