Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i am confused on the second provision in the law that states "sales not in conjunction with a business" does this mean that private party sales among hobbiest at expos and swaps are ok as long as it is not from a business to a business? and how does that break down state to state? I am from illinois and i have been told that illinois state law says you sell an item it is a business transaction but i have also been told it is a private party sell.... i need some serious help thanx

construed anyway one wants to but it is against the law to sell other than a BONA-FIDE SCIENTIFIC reason to a BONA FIDE SCIENTIFIC ORG. , AGENCY, PERSON and all of those disclaimers, signed affidavits , whatever at reptile shows, on-line, pet stores sales don't hold water if caught. I KNOW because of several incidents involving the simple display of under 4 inch shell size of one of my past pet stores where the FDA threaten to close me down for having them in store. It is just NOT regulated the way it is suppose to be and that's why it goes on in sales. But then we all have heard of law suits involving the sales and transmission of the salmonella thing. Also within a state, the state itself can over ride the federal law as in Kansas, Alabama ( the recent sting operation of " Snapper " ) to name a few states. The FDA says man power to regulate is a problem but then there is the CDC out there that can also come down on sales of under 4 inch. Basically, yes, I have seen sales of under 4 inch turtles at reptile shows ,( very few these days now though ) and still on line that very easily could get the seller in some BIG trouble with the Lacey act or a particular states laws. It is just hard to enforce !
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

This law has nothing to do with the Lacey Act. There has been no slow down of under 4" turtles (tortoises and terrapins included) at shows I go to in Florida (the biggest ones in the country) nor should there be. Richard Fife has been petitioning congress about this silly law for years. Check out his findings at ivorytortoise.com.

In short, there is a provision that allows sales to hobbyists not involved with a business. Therefore, as hobbyists we can participate. Obviously, there is gray area here but the govt. does not have the time to pick and choose who is a business and who is a hobbyist.

4 inch law constituted the Lacey Act itself but the species of protection and the fact that about 75% of on-line sales with about another 40% is the under 4 inch sales that a very few reptile shows still allows does in fact invoke the Lacey Act of certain states that the specie is of protection no matter what size. The Alabama sting brought some Lacey Act violations up and the long time ago Atlanta Wildlife sting of the 1980ties did the same with one of my friends getting pounded heavy for the transportation of box turtles. My own state and neighboring state strictly disallows the sales of under 4 inch turtles unless you are permitted to sale as the recipient is as well. But we said it already, it is hard to enforce and that is where the non-mobile pet store gets it. What I didn't convey on my visit back in early 1990 by FDA in my pet store was while they wanted me to rid the water baby turtles, they didn't say a THING about my captive born sulcattas and redfoots that were under 4 inch. Now do I think there should be regulations of sales of under 4 inch turtles, YES depending on species as i am of the upper baby boomer age and remembering all of those 100s of thousands ( if not more ) baby red ears or painted turtles that had a very short lifespan when people ( including my parents ) bought them from the penny and dime stores. I just don't know the regulation that would be in place to allow the sales to anybody !
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......