Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I learned a valuable lesson this year: "Fattening-up" females is counter productive and actually causes snakes to lay LESS eggs.

I had the mother to this clutch at almost 1,100 grams before she laid the clutch. Consequence: She only laid 4 fertile eggs and 3 duds. Hopefully next year she will lay more... These look good and I hope that all 4 will hatch.

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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
2005 Available List
ECC Email

Three more mouths to feed. I'm back off to the Poconos 3-4 days a week for the next month or so, which should get me to hatching time for the eastern albino hatchings.

*OT question Peter, do you do anything special to get the yellow rat hatchlings to eat f/t? Curiosity before I try.*
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Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

Bob, They are slow starters but they all will eat. I feed live mostly... so I would start them on live pinks instead of FT.

Peter
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
2005 Available List
ECC Email

B
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Bob Bull
2.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.2 L.g.g GA locality
1.3 L.g.g albino
1.3 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

I always thought intake of calories equals egg production? My year was not the best but I got good numbers from snakes that produced and I fed the hell out of them as usual. For example 13 from my MBK,21 from one Corn, 25 from another Corn and 14 from a Honduran. Matter fo fact I fed a Gopher 9 mice after she laid clutch one and actually double clutched and gave me another 9 eggs...the same amount as clutch one. I would not even consider feeding my snakes less, but I have no explanation for anyone who does not have large clutches from snakes fed well??????
Tom Stevens

Of course your right, calories=reproductive effort. But, if conditions prohibit the use of calories, then its of no use. An example is, undermetabolized snakes convert calories into fat.

This is the point I was making a while back. The wider the chocies the better they can use their calories. Both in conserving and expending.

For instance, if a snake is constantly hot, its constantly using calories instead of conserving them for reproduction. Also, its its not allowed higher heat choices, its also cannot expend calories for growth and reproduction.

In the old days, their were many folks who believed all this and that, I sadly thought those days were past(wrong again)

In this case, a person recieves results and makes a statement. Of course for his conditions, he is right. Then you come and make a different statement, and you are also right. Both of you are using results to make your statements. This is an example of both being right, but points out, there are many rights. Reptiles are not confined to one right or one wrong.

They have reproductive potential, that is, they can produce from zero to a whole lot, depending on USEABLE calories and conditions.

Again in this case, the person who made the first statement, should understand, those are results with his particular set of conditions. He may want to think about changing them to see improvement. Or not.

Theres that old saying, "its a fool who keeps doing the same thing expecting different results" this may or may not apply.

Other statements in this vein, like, young females or first clutches, tend to be infertile or small are in my opinion and experience, wrong. I never had any problems with very very young females, in fact, they are the best. Simple logic tells you, they have not had time to obtain problems. Thanks FR

You know I often go to the classifieds and browse ads even when I have no intention of buying....and enjoy the pics and read what people have to say about their animals. I read ads for trios of Kings and Corns and what not and see things like this group produced a total of 15 babies this year. I can not help to say to myself.....that's it? I understand some types of snakes average larger clutch sizes than others and perhaps I have been lucky in my average sized clutches but the at the end of the day I think to myself no wonder this person is selling this group of animals. Perhaps they're just not in optimum health. These comments I am making are just speaking in general....and just a way I look at things. I myself had some odd things happen this year and have ideas on why it turned out that way but this is why I like to discuss fine tuning my approach to keeping snakes. I am sticking with things as I have for the most part. However a little experimentation can not hurt. I do not want to aggrivate people again with my talk of larger cages in general but going along with what you said about giving a snake choices has to do with it...., in other words if you have a snake with nice n heavy bodyweight while gravid and she has not enough room to exercise a bit then it may be a bad idea to fill her to the hilt with food. Same goes for a constant temp with no fluctuation. I recomended to a friend who has been breeding snakes much longer than myself to try things a little differently. He did indeed produce more babies this year...and I would like to think my advice helped. I am happy with where I am at now, but I will continue to look into things a little deeper. Tom Stevens

About larger cages and exercise. I am not sure, its about exercise. I thinks its really based on choices. You cannot put a medium sized snake in a small cage and allow more then a couple of choices.

The truth is, they make lots of choices. In our field work, snakes normally move from hot spots, voluntery basking up to 100F surface temps. Down to voluntery basking or sitting in temps in the 40"s. This is out in the open. I learned the last one the hard way.

My partner and I were at our site in early Jan. and he was working the shade and I the smart one, was working the sunny spots. Remember, this is at 6000F in Jan. Well, he found three willards(ridgenosed rattlesnakes) coiled up in the open, IN THE SHADE, at temps below 50F. WHAT THE HECK. I learned a lesson, my parameters of what they do, was not their(the snakes) parameter nor was it my partners.

Ok back to the subject, small cages simply do not allow many choices. Again, the snakes on our site, choose sitting places depending on need. The need at the time. This can be anything from the low temps mentioned above to the hot temps also mentioned.

Remember, there must be reason for these animals to come out from underground(where they live) and pick a certain type and temperature place to sit.

I may have mentioned in the past, snakes and some lizards are expert at regional heating, that is, they keep most of the body in a cool area and only heat the area that needs heat. This is common with a large food bolus or with eggs and fetuses. I have many pics of this. This is something not commonly provided for in captivity. Most of you do not use lites to make a hot spot, yet snakes are expert at using them. That paradign of no basking in hots spots from lites is totally a captive problem, based on convienence. As in, basking lites are a pain in the arse.

Back to the start, I think snakes only exercise in nature as a product of poor conditions. The healthy ones may never have to travel any distance. The individuals that do not have suitable places are the individuals that crawl and crawl, looking for suitable conditions. So its a bit backwards, the individuals that exercise the least are the ones who recruit the most. FR

FR,
So I take it a good cage for, say, an adult Splendida, would be a tall three foot by 18" X 18" cage(like an old Nedosha) equipped with a basking light over a Retes stack to give a variety of temps to move to/through. That about do it? Better than a sweater box in a rack?

Pat

We're on the same page for sure Frank. When I refer to exercise, I have seen snakes either stress out in small cages....like in pet shops for example...and also simply become lethargic and lay around doing nothing. So as you said not as many calories are being burned as should be. I agree too with the pain in the you know what statement about lighting. I only have a light above my Womas...everything else has UTH. I insulated my snake room this year and was happier with the results....however now I feel I need a fan or two to spread the cool air from my AC around properly. A proven breeder I have did not produce this year, and I think it was because she is in the highest cage in my room. I even cut her heat source off and routinely opened her cage to allow it to cool but she resorbed follicles 2 if not 3 times. There's always next year...and I switch things around most during winter when the majority of my animals are cooling. I have new ideas to work with...and look forward to trying them out. Tom Stevens

Mike

Ok, I'm a little confused. I'm going to use my snake as my example in this post. Mr.Retes, you say that the less active a snake is, the more healthy it is? But then, Tom, you say lethargic snakes are more UN-healthy?? So which one is it? The only reason I ask is because my 6 month old hypo brooksi (0.1) will HOPEFULLY be breeding for me in a yr. and a half or so, but the thing is, she eats like a horse but she almost NEVER excercises by moving around in her cage. I have half of her cage filled with Aspen shavings for her to burrow in and the other half filled with Fir Tree bark, which is under her light source (the warm end), which keeps the tank at a steady 78-82 degrees. Out of the 24 hrs. of the day, she is under the shavings pretty much all of that time, except for when I take her out to handle her (2-3 times a day). This has really got me bugged. As far as I can tell she's healthy as can be, but the letargicness (is that a word? lol) has really got me bugged. And when I decide to breed her, I don't know what will happen. Do you guys have any comments about this? I thought the floridana snakes were more active than this!

Neither one, all our talk about snakes, is about what situation its in, as in, what context. What I was talking about was, the breeders I see in nature, do not roam or travel. They go to their breeding/nesting sites and stay put. I did not say they were lazy or whatever, they simply stay put. Part of the population are constantly roaming, these rarely become breeders.

You can ask Tom to explain what he said, hahahahahahahahaha, horses mouth is always better. FR

A fat lethargic snake may tend to be a lousy breeder.....that is my opinion. Handling your snake 2 or 3 times a day is a little much....just another opinion. We were talking about producing numbers of eggs....and how some people feel feeding snakes a lot of food is counter productive. It is any easy thing to debate as some of us have very different results from similar ways of doing things. Tom Stevens

Thanks for the replies. Actually, I rarely to never handle my snake 3 times a day, but I have been handling her twice a day. I guess I'll just cut it down to once a day, but still... it's kind of hard for me to know if I'm doing something wrong or if I just ended up with a pretty dang lazy snake. I never see her up out of her substrate, so I have no idea if she's trying to tell me something or if she's just ALWAYS tired and wants to rest.

It sucks being a novice trying to learn from all you experienced-as-hell people! lol

I love it when you stop by here, always a great learning experience and most of us understand your posts for what they are intended to impress upon us.

Mike

I think you dont understand what Peter is saying and maybe I dont either but here goes. Peter is thinking maybe having females on the thick side is not good for production and I agree. You mention you feed your snakes well but feeding your snakes well doesnt mean you have overweight snakes...or do you ? Ive had friends with some real fat females and you would look at em and think wow the eggs they are gonna produce, and it just doesnt pan out. You mention you like to FR's thinking of more choices and more natural type things for your animals etc... but there is nothing natural about 2 feedings per week of ft thawed mice. I think snakes or better yet their keepers can tear a page out of the human race book and try and keep the weight down for a healthier life (trust me I know lol). Many novice keepers think because their snakes constantly want food = they need it, but thats not the case. Snakes are not domestic animasl they are full of instinct and one is eat as much as you can while its there cause you never know whenyou are gonna eat next. Trust me your snakes have no idea they get fed every thurday at 7pm. I dont think FR is totally wrong either but you admit you dont keep your snakes like FR suggests is best (single heated room etc... as opposed to FR's multi temp set-up)yet you somehow had some success this year...go figure! Hopefully Peter has a better year next year as opposed to the 100's of babies he has now.LOL

Keith

>>I always thought intake of calories equals egg production? My year was not the best but I got good numbers from snakes that produced and I fed the hell out of them as usual. For example 13 from my MBK,21 from one Corn, 25 from another Corn and 14 from a Honduran. Matter fo fact I fed a Gopher 9 mice after she laid clutch one and actually double clutched and gave me another 9 eggs...the same amount as clutch one. I would not even consider feeding my snakes less, but I have no explanation for anyone who does not have large clutches from snakes fed well??????
>>Tom Stevens
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Another point worth mentioning is the periods when they refuse food to go through the cycle of shedding their skins. It is not uncommon for my snakes to take 10-15 days for the whole thing to take place and then resume feeding. Sometimes it may even be longer....especially with a gravid female. I had a Corn appear opaque for 5 weeks once, she did not eat until after she laid eggs. Sure she ate a lot before then but it was still a long time to go without food. You're right Keith....snakes most likely do not encounter and overpower food half as often in the wild as we feed them in captivity. However my goal is to produce lots of babies and keep my snakes healthy. None of us like to see that skeletal version of our snakes after they lay....so this inspires me to keep them feeding as often as they want to eat. Tom Stevens

I said it above that as long as snakes arent obese then how you feed is right for you and your snakes. Peter was referring to the weight of the snake...

Keith

>>Another point worth mentioning is the periods when they refuse food to go through the cycle of shedding their skins. It is not uncommon for my snakes to take 10-15 days for the whole thing to take place and then resume feeding. Sometimes it may even be longer....especially with a gravid female. I had a Corn appear opaque for 5 weeks once, she did not eat until after she laid eggs. Sure she ate a lot before then but it was still a long time to go without food. You're right Keith....snakes most likely do not encounter and overpower food half as often in the wild as we feed them in captivity. However my goal is to produce lots of babies and keep my snakes healthy. None of us like to see that skeletal version of our snakes after they lay....so this inspires me to keep them feeding as often as they want to eat. Tom Stevens
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First, people making assumptions is wrong, to say snakes eat less in nature is totally wrong, to say they eat more is also totally wrong, to say they are always skinny in nature is again wrong, as is saying they are always fat.

What nature provides is all of the above, on great years, snakes eat often, as much as everyday, on bad years, they do not eat at all. Of course, its mostly between these extremes. Nature provides at all times, conditions that cause total failure to conditions that allow successful recruiting. Its the task of the species to find the places that provide support for that particular species, and one step further, to support one individual.

What I think is totally misunderstand by some here is how snakes normally eat in nature. They feed in bursts, that is, they eat alot over short periods, a week to a month of heavy feeding, is normal. Then they conserve energy. They conserve energy at all times. Nature does not offer food once or twice a week or a month. When its there, you better eat it.

From watching snakes in nature, I came up with this, all it takes for them to reproduce is five good feedings. So I tested it, yes, I had no problems having kingsnakes reproduce with only five feedings. As long as they could control their temps, that is, get cold.

The major difference between nature and captivity is, in nature, they have a huge choice of options and make their own decisions, in captivity, keepers feel a strong need to tell them what they are suppose to want, then say, this is what they do. What they do in captivity is only what you the keeper let them do. No more, and no less.

All in all, if your second clutch is smaller then the first, then its a direct reflection on your support. After all, you are in charge of that support. If its the same or larger is also a reflection of the support givin. If you disagree with this, then its very obvious that your conversation is not about the animals, but instead about people and/or your egos. After all, its great just getting one clutch. Or heck, its great to have a healthy snake. That some want to make it, right or wrong or you or me, is totally silly. FR

then I might feel sorry for it : "...so this inspires me to keep them feeding as often as they want to eat. Tom Stevens"
You know Florida Kings usually never say NO to food (mine don't)
Keep feeding Brooksi as much as THEY want and:
Poor things'll be wider than they're long and eventually explode! LOL

But seriously, thanks for your input it IS valuable nonetheless!
Zee

I said they do not always eat as much as offered. Every snake in this house has perfect muscle tone and no fat deposits but for my breeder MBK. Ask JLassiter or PreacherPat. They have both been here and seen it for themselves. I have posted plenty of pics of snakes fed they way I feed and no one has ever said anything about them being overweight.Case closed
Tom Stevens, owner of 15 Brooksi that eat like pigs

'cause they have such an outrageous feeding response that they start biting the glass (not striking but chewing like) in their enclosure (as if to reach out and grab a frozen mouse) whenever i get too close to their cage. Never had a kingsnake try to chew on the glass or even bite itself like these brooksis do. Except for my female cal king - she DOES bite herself occasionally when she's in a feeding frenzy. She thinks the movement of her own tail is another mouse and then tries to eat it, LOL!

Zee

Feed a captive born raccoon whatever & whenever he wants..........and see what happens. LOL

Feed your kids (captive bred or wild) whatever & whenever they want.........and see what happens. LOL

Just funnin' with ya!

Kerby...

My snakes are healthy, definitely not power-fed. Probably fed more than wild-caughts, BUT definitely not fed like MOST of the people say they feed theirs on this forum and other forums. IMO pumping females after brumation is not good. Feeding them more FREQUENT is good, not necessarily feeding them more food.

Kerby...

Hey Kerby, just so you and everyone else is aware...I start my feedings for snakes fresh out of brumation slowly. One rodent for the first meal. Maybe a few days or a week later another 2. Then when they turn on and try and attack anything that moves I feed them as much as they want. I like to offer 6 mice per feeding, and sometimes they eat all and look for more and other times they do not eat all 6. I do not often weigh my snakes, or their meals. My snakes have great muscular builds and none are obese...that would not be cool. I also have snakes that simply never eat a lot. They eat and grow at a good pace, but show no interest in making pigs of themselves,,,,,that goes for both males and females. I do not panic either if a breeding female is not pigging out. I just like to offer them the choice of eating as much as they want. I have heard stories of the down side of feeding a snake a lot....but myself[knock on wood] I have yet to have anything bad happen. I remember FR also mentioning that he has seen many snakes in the wild which were quite thin produce...which I have heard about in captivity as well. Someone I have a LOT of respect for recently warned me about overfeeding when I posted pics of my MBK while she was gravid. I appreciated the warning but she laid 13 eggs that just hatched and I just think it is because I house my snakes differently and even offer them a larger place to lay the eggs. I am not saying my way is better than anyone elses. But I also do not like to hear someone say snakes that eat a lot produce less eggs. Like people say..."whatever works for you is cool with me". Tom Stevens

Nobody said that snakes that eat alot produce less except you just now. I think we are all referring to snakes that are obese or even slightly overweight. If you feed your snakes alot and they arent obese then fine but that wasnt the point it was the actual weight of the animal.

Keith

>>Hey Kerby, just so you and everyone else is aware...I start my feedings for snakes fresh out of brumation slowly. One rodent for the first meal. Maybe a few days or a week later another 2. Then when they turn on and try and attack anything that moves I feed them as much as they want. I like to offer 6 mice per feeding, and sometimes they eat all and look for more and other times they do not eat all 6. I do not often weigh my snakes, or their meals. My snakes have great muscular builds and none are obese...that would not be cool. I also have snakes that simply never eat a lot. They eat and grow at a good pace, but show no interest in making pigs of themselves,,,,,that goes for both males and females. I do not panic either if a breeding female is not pigging out. I just like to offer them the choice of eating as much as they want. I have heard stories of the down side of feeding a snake a lot....but myself[knock on wood] I have yet to have anything bad happen. I remember FR also mentioning that he has seen many snakes in the wild which were quite thin produce...which I have heard about in captivity as well. Someone I have a LOT of respect for recently warned me about overfeeding when I posted pics of my MBK while she was gravid. I appreciated the warning but she laid 13 eggs that just hatched and I just think it is because I house my snakes differently and even offer them a larger place to lay the eggs. I am not saying my way is better than anyone elses. But I also do not like to hear someone say snakes that eat a lot produce less eggs. Like people say..."whatever works for you is cool with me". Tom Stevens
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I learned a valuable lesson this year: "Fattening-up" females is counter productive and actually causes snakes to lay LESS eggs.

I had the mother to this clutch at almost 1,100 grams before she laid the clutch. Consequence: She only laid 4 fertile eggs and 3 duds. Hopefully next year she will lay more... These look good and I hope that all 4 will hatch.
This is the original post from Peter, which one of us is missing something??? Tom Stevens

You. Peter says he finds fatter females are less productive. You disagreed so I guess you have found fat female are more productive ? I think you are looking at what he is saying wrong. His female got nice and thick due to how or what he feed her. You disagreed and said you feed the heck out of your females and get good production. One could extrapolate you mean that you have fat females and you get good production but I doubt that. He is argueing weight and you saw that he was argueing amount of food fed so its you who doesn't understand his post.

Keith

>>I learned a valuable lesson this year: "Fattening-up" females is counter productive and actually causes snakes to lay LESS eggs.
>>
>>I had the mother to this clutch at almost 1,100 grams before she laid the clutch. Consequence: She only laid 4 fertile eggs and 3 duds. Hopefully next year she will lay more... These look good and I hope that all 4 will hatch.
>> This is the original post from Peter, which one of us is missing something??? Tom Stevens
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Nah just kidding

He said fattening up snakes produces less eggs, that is a bold statement and I do not agree with it. Nor do I think we all NEED fat snakes to get a lof eggs, is that any better for you? I respect Peters opinion, and understand his frustration. I am not about to suggest a survey to get info on who thinks what as far as what an adult breeding female King should weigh. I do not think I misunderstood Peter. I was not trying to get under your skin either but I apparently I have? Tom Stevens

I agree with Peter, but it doesn't mean that EVERY snake that is obese will have reproduction problems. But I do believe it is unleathy in the long run, will cause more problems in the long run. Doesn't mean that every clutch produced by obese snakes will have problems. There are obese women who do not have problems....but there is a problem there.....

IMO most of captive bred snakes are over-weight, to include mine, although every year I try to rectify that problem..LOL

Kerby...

"But I also do not like to hear someone say snakes that eat a lot produce less eggs. "

I didn't say THAT, but.... heavy, obese women do have more complications with birthing than those that are not, heavy, obese also have more medical problems than those that are not.

IMO snakes in the wild:

* are thinner than the captive herp industry's snakes
* have the same if not larger clutches
* live longer (excluding predation, habitat destruction, etc..)
* don't feed as often as captive bred snakes
* are cycled more than captive bred
etc.....

Kerby...

I know Kerby, you just said you agreed with Peter who basically said feeding a lot may be counter productive. I agree with what you said about snakes in the wild. That brings up the whole..."but our captive snakes are not in the wild" type discussions. There's talk of how people learned a lesson to NOT feed their snakes a lot while gravid[or at least hinting at it?]. They had some lousy things happen.....I fed the hell outa mine and had good results....it's all just snake talk. I hate to hear people have lousy numbers with eggs and eggs hatching...and just like to talk about what worked for me. Tom Stevens

There can be no conclusions to this discussion because:

Wild observations by humans represent a microscopic pimp on a nat's butt and NO CONCLUSION'S can come about of those observations. It's a start, but we know VERY LITTLE about wild snake's. More than 40 years ago - yes. My opinions of wild snake's behaviors/habits are no less/or more important than ie. Frank's. So we have spent a lot of time in the field "studying" snakes...........a start....but too small amount of information to base facts, just opinions...which differ...and rightly so.

I agree with a lot of what Frank says...and also disagree with a lot of what he says. But those are his opinions based on his experiences which are different than mine. His and mine can also be correct at the same time...make sense?

Kerby...

You have made similar answers to some of my hard to answer posts concerning the comparison of in the wild and in captivity and I agree with you. I would guess your snakes are niether too thin or too fat....and I have seen your offspring. They look perfect, and I like what you have to say and how you say it. Any 10 of us put together to answer questions about reptiles would have different views on a lot of things. Many things work too....that's why I said it's just snake talk Tom Stevens

Kerby...

You talk about conclusions, no one said you are suppose to make conclusions. Thats very important, Keeping reptiles and studying them in nature is not about conclusions, its merely a continuing string of bits of information.

I feel thats a huge problem with teaching these days, they teach you to take some data, then make conclusions. The problem is, they did not teach you when to stop taking data and when its really time to make conclusions.

Making conclusions without the right data, gives you false information. Which is commonplace in todays biology.(from young people making conclusions without enough data)

So please, consider, I do not want anyone making conclusions about what I say. I only hope to make some of you think. Thats it, think. In that I am successful, hey? FR

Tom

Here is what Peter said...
I learned a valuable lesson this year: "Fattening-up" females is counter productive and actually causes snakes to lay LESS eggs.

I had the mother to this clutch at almost 1,100 grams before she laid the clutch. Consequence: She only laid 4 fertile eggs and 3 duds. Hopefully next year she will lay more... These look good and I hope that all 4 will hatch.

Now where in there is is said by him that "feeding a lot may be counter productive" ? He said fattening up a female to whatever weight resulted in her having a low yield. You are getting stuck on the how she got to 1100 garms instead of that she was 1100 grams and wasnt productive. His female obviously doesnt have the metabolism to burn calories like some do or Peter keeps his temps in a way to afford weight gain for this female but whatever the case the point is that FAT FEMALES arent as productive and you have already agreed to that yet you are still argueing the wrong point lol. Oh well we will get there eventually.

Keith

>>I know Kerby, you just said you agreed with Peter who basically said feeding a lot may be counter productive. I agree with what you said about snakes in the wild. That brings up the whole..."but our captive snakes are not in the wild" type discussions. There's talk of how people learned a lesson to NOT feed their snakes a lot while gravid[or at least hinting at it?]. They had some lousy things happen.....I fed the hell outa mine and had good results....it's all just snake talk. I hate to hear people have lousy numbers with eggs and eggs hatching...and just like to talk about what worked for me. Tom Stevens

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WOW! Read everyone's post. Thought I'd chime in a few words of FACT: These are ACTUAL results: Bred a very obese 4' Goini this year (She was obese when I purchased her) She laid ONE egg - and it turned out to be a slug! Next fact: Bred an adult female cal king that was power fed until she laid eggs = 10 good eggs were laid. The following year same cage, same temps, same snake, same cage location, snake was same length as last year, BUT. . .less food was given to her = 14 HUGE eggs were laid!!! And in this little scenario all variables were the same except amount of food was lessened.
Therefore I have no choice but to agree with PETER as I have several more examples of this. OBESE snakes are POOR egg producers. More proportionate (non-pinheads) snakes are GOOD egg producers! ALWAYS had this result.
And Fred: Your post was most contradictive of all - make up your mind and stick to your opinion. Don't confuse the masses,LOL (by saying maybe this - maybe that). That didn't help much. . . You make a few good statements and then you finish by saying well maybe so maybe not (in so many words).
(Ok you can cut my head off now, LOL, I won't mind)

Zee

an obese snake is a reflection of questionable husbandry. The question is, what caused the obesity??? This may or may not be reflected in breeding.

To say a snake thats obese cannot be a good or great breeder is totally wrong.

If you are giving your personal experiences, then I will too. I once was a big breeder of kingsnakes, a long time ago. I had a female blairs, lay 20 eggs in one clutch, all good and all hatched. I asked around if anyone had seem more then that. Erine Wagner, said he had a blairs lay 21 eggs. I later moved up to Seattle to work at the zoo(where Ernie worked) I saw that female blairs, she was about four feet long and two feet wide, with huge ripples of fat all down her back. While previously I was at the opinion that fat snakes do not breed well, I was taught differently. Actually he had a whole bunch of really great breeding fat snakes. I could explain how that happened, but it would only confuse the issue. FR

What caused the obesity? Previous owner that's what! The snake was bought last winter and was already 4 foot plus and fat as hell! I tried to trim her by spring and it was too late. She refused to lose weight and I only fed her one mouse every two weeks.
("Obese snakes poor breeders" Totally wrong? Are you so sure about that??? Ok, at least now you're standing your ground and have a definite opinion. I'm good with that!
But you seem more convinced than I am! But I DO like your example 20 eggs out of a blairs WOW!!! That is impressive!!!

I'm not as convinced with either theory. I was only leaning towards one theory BASED on MY experience and my experience only. That does not mean that I am totally right, neither do I believe it as strong as you might. Because there are a lot of other folks in this world. Even your reply is NOT totally wrong, it's just your facts and I respect and believe them. It also gives me hope that maybe next year my fat goini WILL have more than one slug, LOL! And THANKS for your input Frank! Take care,

Zee

**Thought I'd chime in a few words of FACT: These are ACTUAL results:........**

You are confused...results aren't FACTS...still confused???

**Next fact: Bred an adult female cal king that was power fed until she laid eggs = 10 good eggs were laid. The following year same cage, same temps, same snake, same cage location, snake was same length as last year, BUT. . .less food was given to her = 14 HUGE eggs were laid!!!**

What is your FACT?????? Other variables - age. In ALL of the snakes that I have bred of different species (kings, corns, milks, gophers, rosies, etc...) my females almost always had more eggs/babies from one year to the next as they got older until they reached their capacity. For example I had a female cal king that layed eggs accordingly:

1st year breeding: 5 eggs
2nd year breeding: 7 eggs
3rd year breeding: 9 eggs
4th year breeding: 12 eggs
5th year on: 14 eggs

There is no direct/indirect correlation between feeding too much or too little and her clutch size. THAT IS A FACT.

**Therefore I have no choice but to agree with PETER as I have several more examples of this. OBESE snakes are POOR egg producers.**

Although I agree that obese snakes """"may have"""" lower production...your "experiment" proves "FACT" nothing as your sampling is too small.

Kerby...

So you think I'm confused, huh??? Ok I'm confused and you seem afwully convinced of this? Already know me that well? We havn't even met! GO CLEAN YOUR MIRROR!!! (Check yourself, before you wreck yourself!)

Facts are things that are perceived as definite truth usually based on what the eyes see, right? Small sample??? Ok I'll give you that one - you can thank my employer, been working over 70 hours a week recently. I would list a bunch more, but honestly I'm tired and don't have much time. If my sample, though small, is not facts in YOUR eyes than what do you call it??? A lie??? Did I make this up??? I have had and bred snakes for about 28 years now and have plenty of stories as I'm sure you have to.
I was only stating MY facts which means that other variables have happened and there are always exceptions to the rule. I do account for that. I was only giving you more food for thought not some "writing in stone"!
RELAX, man, I come in peace,

Zee

Results aren't facts........or they would happen every time under the same conditions.

"Obese females = less eggs; Frequently fed females = lots of eggs" This statement is not a fact. It doesn't happen every time. It did happen for you (a result), but may not happen for someone else (a result).

**If my sample, though small, is not facts in YOUR eyes than what do you call it??? A lie??? Did I make this up???**

Your sample is not a fact ( it won't happen every time), but a result. It is not a lie...you did not make it up...but it is not a fact that every time you have an obese snake that you will have less eggs than a frequently fed snake will have more.

Anyways, that's what I was trying to cpnvey.

Kerby...

I may have worded it a little wrong. How about saying "Temporary fact". Is that better, LOL! Every year it CAN change we all know that, but don't we all base our facts on statistics??? All insurance companies in the entire world do so!
So when you breed snakes for over 25 years and see a certain result come up more often than others than you BEGIN to establish SOME facts BASED on RESULTS. These are called statistics. Maybe it's not set in stone, but IT IS the foundation of reality/facts. There are ALWAYS exceptions of course: YOU are one, and so am I!!! LOL!
BTW: Are you coming to Daytona this year?
Take care,

Zee

Not going to Daytona.

Just going to do my little Tucson Reptile Show in September.

Kerby...