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Not trying to make a point here, just hatched out the first of the hypo brooksi x Easterns today and put it next to the hypo brooksi x hyperethristic Blaze.

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~ZF

now which one is which?

*CAUTION* PICTURE OF RED BROOKSI OFFSPRING BELOW-WATCHOUT

now which one is which?

Sorry.

Eastern king x hypo brooksi is on the left and the Hyperethritic Blaze phase goini cross is on the right.

The eastern x hypo is an F2 gen. I am waiting for the hypos to hatch from that same clutch as I write.

how about this- get ahold of dr means, send him several of your specimens so he can do dna analysis on them and compare it to data he (should) have on wc goini. you don't have to kill the snake to get dna, a shed skin and maybe a little blood. the goini population is not that big so if your animals are pure they should have a very good match to what the doc has (should have) on his wc's. and by the way wasn't it him (dr means)buying a pair of goini from gulf coast reptiles at daytona in '03 on that national geographic special that aired last year? i know it was '03 since it was the last time i was at the big show and i saw him with the film crew. he wouldn't acquire bogus specimens on national tv?!?!?! this approach may slow you down in the short run but imagine the huge hype you can whip up with strong lab data to back you up ( or knock you down...lol)

*CAUTION* PICTURE OF FLAME HYPO BROOKS/FLORIDANA VIEWERDISCRETION ADVISED**

I don't even own a hyperethristic (Blaze phase goini). I wish I did. I sent my hypo brooksi to TonyD for a breeding lone. He bred it to his male hyperethristic goini. It proved two things.

1) the Blaze goini is not a hypo and is unrelated to the hypo brooksi because the babies came out normals. They are now double het hyperethristic and hypomelanistic. I am looking forward to seeing what these produce in the future.

2)It proved is there was no brooks (floridana) in the Blaze.
Things got a little out of hand when some said the Blaze is still a cross with a brooksi even though they were wrong about the Blaze Phase being a man made cross to the hypo brooksi. Anyway I am glad its over and we can get back to sharing our breeding succeses.

All king snakes DNA are going to look very similar. They are not even different species. Subspecies geographically located very close to one another will be that much more similar. Subspecies located close to one another and crossed with each other, I would imagine would be so similar that it may be impossible to distinguish. After all, not all Goini are monozygotic twins nor are all Goini siblings or even “close cousins” : ) Therefore there is variation in their DNA and no gold standard for comparison. I’m no biologist, but it seems like an extremely difficult task that would require not only an intimate knowledge of Goini DNA but all other closely related subspecies for divergent/differential rule outs.

i don't really know what would "qualify" as a good match, i suspect a good understanding of the gene pool as you suggested and the appropriate multivariate analysis required to answer that. anyhow i thought the point was to show there is no hypo brooksi in the hypererythristic goini. hypomelanism in brooksi would be an easy allele/gene to identify and mark. since the dna is so similar it again would be easy to identify the same site in the goini and say yes there is the hypo gene here and they are suspect or no it is not here and the hypererythristic goini is legitimate.
btw i do not think hypomelanism and high red coloration are linked in brooksi so to expect it to be the source of blaze goini is modestly curious.

Good point about merely seeking the hypo allele/gene.

"multivariate analysis" Are you a fellow researcher? Or do you just like doing stats as a hobby? Afterall, nothing beats talking stats with some beers on a weekend evening! (that's a joke)

Have a good one

i've dibbled in stats (and beer),and i like understanding what i am reading but nothing special. maybe someday i will make it a third career.
db

...some of the things in the episode you refer kinda made me say "What?"
As you know by now that snake they found was Sean's animal right?
The part where he was buying animals from GCR didn't upset me as much as it was implied that he would possibly release some in the future.... I dunno about that.
I talked with him (Dr. Means)for a few minutes last year at the show and have more questions of him next time I see him.
DNA on these kings may not be as reliable as you'd think--or so I've been told...
I hope the smart guys decide once and for all on them.. but then, science is always changing/progressing, huh?
:Mark

i would like to see the episode again, i just happened to remember it as this thread progressed. it seems tv never tells you the whole story, so who knows what he was going to do with those animals he purchased. i'd love to hear what he had to say. i was more impressed when he paddled across the bay and drove his truck in first gear for miles to seek help after being bitten by the eastern diamondback...that is pure cujones.

you gotta forgive me, i don't know who sean is and what he is working towards, just intrigued by the activity here. i love natural history and ecology, would like to meet the guy and hear his side of things. i am neutral on this whole topic (nothing at stake, no chance of buying any) but have added my .0000002 to try and get some straight answers on the morph end of things presented over the last day or so.
db