Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,

I read the articles that Wes posts on many of the forums. Usually for the ones where some moron accidentally turned their animals loose or something of the sort, you usually get some cocky dork yelling that these animals shouldnt be kept and they should be kept in a zoo setting. Much like the case of the issue where an asian water monitor got loose. They said that the animals require special lighting and heating in order to for the animal to thrive (duh). Is there any difference in the type lighting bulbs and heating elements that are provided in zoos compared to private availability? Do these zoos have special systems set up in each and every vivarium/enclosure that makes their care MUCH more elite? I am just curious as to what zoos have to offer (besides the obvious conservation and education reasons) that the private keepers don't or can't provide? Any ideas or info to help me understand this?

Your ideas and help are much appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Chris

Hi Chris,

I don't know that there is really a right or wrong answer to your question. I don't know that it is a matter of what is available to zoos v. private individuals or even the level of daily care provided by a zoo employee v. a private individual. I think the biggest difference is the amount of resources (financial, space, time, etc.) that can be provided in a zoo setting v. a private setting. The fact is, most zoos have more resources available to them than most (stressing most) private individuals. I am certainly not trying to imply, nor do I believe, that any of the more specialized animals cannot be kept properly by a member of the priviate sector. I am simply saying that most people in the private sector either can't, or are not willing to, provide the resources necessary to care for a giant snake, venomous snake, giant lizard, crocodilian, etc. I think the individual who posted here wanting to know how to house an anaconda until it reached 8ft is a perfect example of someone either unable or unwilling to provide for the needs of the animal in question. As a former reptile house employee at a large zoo, I can tell you that we fielded calls almost daily from individuals who wanted us to take the animal they could no longer keep. Again, I am not trying to say that the specialized animals should not be kept by the private sector. Just that most people can't or won't do it right. I think that is what leads to the public outcry following articles like the one you mentioned. Just my thoughts. Take care.

Rob

>>Hello,
>>
>> I read the articles that Wes posts on many of the forums. Usually for the ones where some moron accidentally turned their animals loose or something of the sort, you usually get some cocky dork yelling that these animals shouldnt be kept and they should be kept in a zoo setting. Much like the case of the issue where an asian water monitor got loose. They said that the animals require special lighting and heating in order to for the animal to thrive (duh). Is there any difference in the type lighting bulbs and heating elements that are provided in zoos compared to private availability? Do these zoos have special systems set up in each and every vivarium/enclosure that makes their care MUCH more elite? I am just curious as to what zoos have to offer (besides the obvious conservation and education reasons) that the private keepers don't or can't provide? Any ideas or info to help me understand this?
>>
>>Your ideas and help are much appreciated.
>>
>>Best Wishes,
>>
>>Chris

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your reply. After you put it that way, I see perfectly and understand. Actually, I would have to agree 100% now that I think about it.

Thanks for your reply!

Best Wishes,

chris

>>Hi Chris,
>>
>>I don't know that there is really a right or wrong answer to your question. I don't know that it is a matter of what is available to zoos v. private individuals or even the level of daily care provided by a zoo employee v. a private individual. I think the biggest difference is the amount of resources (financial, space, time, etc.) that can be provided in a zoo setting v. a private setting. The fact is, most zoos have more resources available to them than most (stressing most) private individuals. I am certainly not trying to imply, nor do I believe, that any of the more specialized animals cannot be kept properly by a member of the priviate sector. I am simply saying that most people in the private sector either can't, or are not willing to, provide the resources necessary to care for a giant snake, venomous snake, giant lizard, crocodilian, etc. I think the individual who posted here wanting to know how to house an anaconda until it reached 8ft is a perfect example of someone either unable or unwilling to provide for the needs of the animal in question. As a former reptile house employee at a large zoo, I can tell you that we fielded calls almost daily from individuals who wanted us to take the animal they could no longer keep. Again, I am not trying to say that the specialized animals should not be kept by the private sector. Just that most people can't or won't do it right. I think that is what leads to the public outcry following articles like the one you mentioned. Just my thoughts. Take care.
>>
>>Rob
>>
>>>>Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I read the articles that Wes posts on many of the forums. Usually for the ones where some moron accidentally turned their animals loose or something of the

sort, you usually get some cocky dork yelling that these animals shouldnt be kept and they should be kept in a zoo setting. Much like the case of the issue where an asian water monitor got loose. They said that the animals require special lighting and heating in order to for the animal to thrive (duh). Is there any difference in the type lighting bulbs and heating elements that are provided in zoos compared to private availability? Do these zoos have special systems set up in each and every vivarium/enclosure that makes their care MUCH more elite? I am just curious as to what zoos have to offer (besides the obvious conservation and education reasons) that the private keepers don't or can't provide? Any ideas or info to help me understand this?
>>>>
>>>>Your ideas and help are much appreciated.
>>>>
>>>>Best Wishes,
>>>>
>>>>Chris

I will have to agree with Rob. As I have also worked at an AZA accredited facility, the care is on a daily basis. We have a full blown medical staff to include specialists in all forms of "exotic" wildlife from Herps to Cetaceans. How many private individuals have X-ray machines, 24 hr medical assistance, etc. Also, for the most part, the enclosures are much larger, have temperature controlled regions to mimic wild or native conditions, and lighting components that are not available to the private sector. (Such as 1000 mercury vapor bulbs etc). Also, the level of experience and training that is involved. For example I have attended the AZA Crocodillian and Captive Management Course whish has world reknowned instructors to teach and educate those who are involved in crocodillians. We were also exposed to EVERY species of crocodilian in the world. Or, the fact that we go thru an extensive venom protocol and handeling program prior to working with our venomous animals.

Just my two cents.
-----
Peter Kriz

Sua Sponte

>>I will have to agree with Rob. As I have also worked at an AZA accredited facility, the care is on a daily basis. We have a full blown medical staff to include specialists in all forms of "exotic" wildlife from Herps to Cetaceans. How many private individuals have X-ray machines, 24 hr medical assistance, etc.

This I agree with completely, the only difference is that you have these items onsite. Most people donot have access to these items 24 hrs.

Also, for the most part, the enclosures are much larger, have temperature controlled regions to mimic wild or native conditions, and lighting components that are not available to the private sector. (Such as 1000 mercury vapor bulbs etc)

Now we are getting to the actual answer to my question. Exactly what are the purposes of these "1000 mercury vapor bulbs"? You have certainly caught my interest. As far as the "much larger" enclosures are concerned, take a trip to Ohio, view the zoos, and then try to hand me that. The only zoo I am actually impress with up here is the Toledo zoo. Even then as far as one of their crocs are concerned is questionable (mainly because myself as well as several other trained handlers from gatorland, feel that they are improperly naming one of their crocs). As far as climate controlled is concerned, this can certainly be offered with a little more money and effort from the private sector.

. Also, the level of experience and training that is involved. For example I have attended the AZA Crocodillian and Captive Management Course whish has world reknowned instructors to teach and educate those who are involved in crocodillians. We were also exposed to EVERY species of crocodilian in the world. Or, the fact that we go thru an extensive venom protocol and handeling program prior to working with our venomous animals.

AZA individuals are not the only ones that have access to this. Due to my personal contacts I can certainly be at St. Augustine (and plan to be) next year.

As far as the venomous program is concerned, well, it's not exactly necessary for private keepers to go through this, as long as they can mentor under someone who has the experience and knowledge such as Rob Carmichael from the Wildlife Discovery Center in Illinois. If you have this and actually learn from it, you can't go wrong. All it takes is a little time and patience and you can learn from someone other than a specialized class.

Thanks for your response!

Best Wishes,

Chris
>>
>>

What is the problem in Ohio? I have been to the Colombus Zoo and was very impressed. I have not been to others. Also, what is the animal (crocodilian) in question? Has it been keyed out? As far as AZA, first you have to have a letter from an institution sponsoring you and be an AZA member as well.
-----
Peter Kriz

Sua Sponte

My biggest problem with columbus zoo was the reptile house. The enclosures were not exactly as big as they should have been in my opinion. The crocodilian in question is a "Cuban Crocodile" (Crocodylus Rhombifer). The snout is unusually enlongated and it is much darker in color than that of normal Cuban's (however, that could be due to environmental conditions). Most Cuban's that I have seen the "squamosals" stand out quite a bit and as has been mentioned, on this particular specimen they are quite diminished.

As far as the letter....not so. As a matter of fact Adam Britton has already made it clear to me that I can get in, all I have to do is let him know, and he will have me a spot, (however, he will not be there this year). He as well claims that the AZA crocodilian course is not impossible for "outsiders" to get into. They just have to have a valid reason for wanting to be in it. I have proven my reasons for wanting to attend, to Adam as well as others.

Hope this clears up my reasonings.

Best Wishes,
Chris

Also, here is some pics of that Cuban croc, you are more than welcomed to make your own judement on the animal.

Chris,

I see the elongated snout and that is not a normal variation or "holotype" like specimen. You are probably aware of the large number of hybrids of C. rhombifer/acutus that are occuring and who knows this could be an example of such a thing. If the animal in question is a SSP animal, I would believe that genetic testing would have to be done to keep the gene pool pure, especially if this is a studbook animal.
-----
Peter Kriz

Sua Sponte

Hi Peter,

Yes Acutus had come to mind. As Israel Dupont put it, it was somewhat a knee-jerk guess, but certainly was in consideration. I have been trying to contact the Toledo zoo croc keeper to get a bit more information on the animal. They have been just simply labeling the animal as a Cuban. This is false information if this is a hybrid and I feel needs to be cleared up.

Thanks for your responses.

Best wishes,

Chris

>>Chris,
>>
>> I see the elongated snout and that is not a normal variation or "holotype" like specimen. You are probably aware of the large number of hybrids of C. rhombifer/acutus that are occuring and who knows this could be an example of such a thing. If the animal in question is a SSP animal, I would believe that genetic testing would have to be done to keep the gene pool pure, especially if this is a studbook animal.
>>-----
>>Peter Kriz
>>
>>
>>Sua Sponte

>>...experience and knowledge such as Rob Carmichael from the Wildlife Discovery Center in Illinois.

Chris,

How do you know Rob? I work part-time for Rob as an exhibit consultant on occasion. I also work full-time at the Small Mammal Reptile House at Lincoln Park Zoo. Incidentally, in answer to the original post - in the case of our zoo, we have the facilities that were previously mentioned - eg. 24 hr. vet care, budget higher than most private keepers, larger enclosures, etc. However, as the original poster was wondering, do we have access to special bulbs and such not available to the general public? The answer is 'no.' Occasionally a zoo will have a company make a bulb for them as was done by one zoo doing a circulating D3 study on Komodos. In that case they had Westron [maker of the T-Rex mercury vapor bulbs], make them some special 'one-off' bulbs to try. Another zoo recently also did some UV experimentation and found a specific brand and type of halogen track light bulb puts out more UVB than any previously tested bulbs, and well within the range for adequate D3 conversion as well as within safe UV projection ranges. So, most of the time zoos don't use anything that isn't already available to the general public. In fact at LPZ we use Reptisun 5.0 bulbs for all of our UV needs, usually coupled with GE Blacklight bulbs [GE 350 BL], because they've been shown to produce some UV and aid in D3 conversion. Other than that, when it comes to exhibits with lighting, misting, etc. we don't do anything that a tech-savie private keeper couldn't do as well. Also, much of our off-exhibit housing is comprised of glass aquaria for some species and Neodesha cages for others, depending on species. I would have to say what zoos do better is simply having the access to best possible veterinary care. In other realms, such as breeding and what not, in fact many zoos have learned how to breed difficult species from talented individuals in the private sector.
-----
Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

A freind of mine used to work at the Bronx Reptile house for a long time and he used to tell me that he enjoyed seeing private collections quite a bit because of the creativity and zeal of private collectors. I would imagine just like any job there is sometimes too much red tape to get some things done as you'd like.

Let's not forget that there are some fairly well off collectors out there that don't lack for much and have fairly narrow focus on some things and while they are the exception rather than the rule they they do exist.

One advantage we can sometimes have is that we are out of the house for work but around our animals, loosely the rest of the day/nite for observation purposes etc. Zoo staff have budget constraints and there are ALWAYS other things to do.

>>>>...experience and knowledge such as Rob Carmichael from the Wildlife Discovery Center in Illinois.
>>
>>Chris,
>>
>>How do you know Rob? I work part-time for Rob as an exhibit consultant on occasion.

I am creating a website and he has provided me some help a time or two or three or four . He is also a consistent poster in the venomous forum and posts from time to time in the Burmese Forum. I am a big fan of Rob and what he does for the herp community and helping others.

I also work full-time at the Small Mammal Reptile House at Lincoln Park Zoo. Incidentally, in answer to the original post - in the case of our zoo, we have the facilities that were previously mentioned - eg. 24 hr. vet care, budget higher than most private keepers, larger enclosures, etc. However, as the original poster was wondering, do we have access to special bulbs and such not available to the general public? The answer is 'no.' Occasionally a zoo will have a company make a bulb for them as was done by one zoo doing a circulating D3 study on Komodos. In that case they had Westron [maker of the T-Rex mercury vapor bulbs], make them some special 'one-off' bulbs to try. Another zoo recently also did some UV experimentation and found a specific brand and type of halogen track light bulb puts out more UVB than any previously tested bulbs, and well within the range for adequate D3 conversion as well as within safe UV projection ranges. So, most of the time zoos don't use anything that isn't already available to the general public. In fact at LPZ we use Reptisun 5.0 bulbs for all of our UV needs, usually coupled with GE Blacklight bulbs [GE 350 BL], because they've been shown to produce some UV and aid in D3 conversion. Other than that, when it comes to exhibits with lighting, misting, etc. we don't do anything that a tech-savie private keeper couldn't do as well. Also, much of our off-exhibit housing is comprised of glass aquaria for some species and Neodesha cages for others, depending on species. I would have to say what zoos do better is simply having the access to best possible veterinary care. In other realms, such as breeding and what not, in fact many zoos have learned how to breed difficult species from talented individuals in the private sector.

Thanks for your help. That is just something that I HAD to know. I hear it so much coming from people and it just makes you wonder what zoos have to offer that the private sector doesn't.

Thanks for your input.

chris

>>-----
>>Matt Campbell
>>25 years herp keeping experience
>>Full-time zookeeper
>>Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)