Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,

I read the articles that Wes posts on many of the forums. Usually for the ones where some moron accidentally turned their animals loose or something of the sort, you usually get some cocky dork yelling that these animals shouldnt be kept and they should be kept in a zoo setting. Much like the case of the issue where an asian water monitor got loose. They said that the animals require special lighting and heating in order to for the animal to thrive (duh). Is there any difference in the type lighting bulbs and heating elements that are provided in zoos compared to private availability? Do these zoos have special systems set up in each and every vivarium/enclosure that makes their care MUCH more elite? I am just curious as to what zoos have to offer (besides the obvious conservation and education reasons) that the private keepers don't or can't provide? Any ideas or info to help me understand this?

Your ideas and help are much appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Chris

I have an odd stance on the subject. Ive said it many times, I DONOT think retics and burms should be kept by the general public, how ever I own 2 retics. The reason why I feel this way is because 90% of burms purchased are bought sheerly for the "cool" factor, and the decision isnt well thought out. Alot of people look at the giant snakes as disposable pets, and they can "get rid of them when they get big". I get calls ATLEAST 2x a week from someone trying to give me a 6' burm. Most of them are because they "dont have time" "cant handle it because its mean" or "it got too big". all three things should have been thought about well before purchaseing a large constrictor. THEY GROW FAST, THEIR BITS HURT, AND GIANTS GET....GIANT! I can honsetly say that in my experince that there are as many retic purchased by unsuitable keeps, however there is still a good number. There is a lot of temptaion in "the longest snake in the world" to a new keeper, especaly when you are looking at a tiny neo. I got my first retic after a few years with working with burms, and countless other constrictors, I knew what I was getting into and had been involed in the care of other large snakes. I chose a retic because I find them to be one of the most interesting snakes Ive ever had the pleasure of working with. They are beautiful, inteligent, and all around a great animal. Personally I DONT want a giant, but at the same time Im not going to hender my animals growth. My other was kinda "left" with me, and I havent placed it in a new home yet, but I doubt its going to be a permanent member of my collection, as I dont realisticly have room for 2 adults.
Now on to the zoos..
Are zoos able to better care for their animals than private owners? duh. Zoo enclosures are very specalized enclosures to not only meet the spacific needs of said animal but to also ensure the safety of the animal and the keepers. At a zoo you have a staff of college educated (in the feild they are working in) specalists who have been through training to deal with the animals, and have a higher understanding of behaviors and biological aspects of the animals. Not everyone has the space to properly house a 20' retic, whereas the zoo isnot only going to house the snake, but also give it room to move around and act out natural behaviors, instead of sitting at one end of the cage due to lack of option. There is always atleast one other person on hand to back you when you have to go into the cage or deal with the animal for any reason, thats not always an option for the average hobbyist. And If you do have some on handy, are they afraid of your big snake? what would they realisticly do if you were attacked? thats not something I would want to worry about every time I went to change water. As far as food goes, buying pigs can some times be difficult, and expencive... enough on that.
One more thing. Look at the FL everglades. There is a good population of burms, and thought to possibly be retics too. How many of those came from zoo stock?
I could keep rambleing on about this all day, but I think I made my point.

>>I have an odd stance on the subject. Ive said it many times, I DONOT think retics and burms should be kept by the general public, how ever I own 2 retics.

I agree to a point, however, just simply cutting them from ownership from the general public would be ridiculous. That would be like the state taking your driver's license away and saying that the only people who can drive are people with CDL's because they have a higher level of driving training than yourself. There are a fair number of responsible owners of all species. However, it is OUR duty to help control and educate people to what they can and can't deal with.

The reason why I feel this way is because 90% of burms purchased are bought sheerly for the "cool" factor, and the decision isnt well thought out.

I think everyone (that has common sense) is on agreement with this, due to it being BY FAR the most common arguement. However, a ban is the last thing that I think should be in place and ONLY zoos can keep.

Alot of people look at the giant snakes as disposable pets, and they can "get rid of them when they get big".

Repeat of above statement.

I get calls ATLEAST 2x a week from someone trying to give me a 6' burm. Most of them are because they "dont have time" "cant handle it because its mean" or "it got too big". all three things should have been thought about well before purchaseing a large constrictor. THEY GROW FAST, THEIR BITS HURT, AND GIANTS GET....GIANT!

Repeat of above statement

I can honsetly say that in my experince that there are as many retic purchased by unsuitable keeps, however there is still a good number. There is a lot of temptaion in "the longest snake in the world" to a new keeper, especaly when you are looking at a tiny neo.

I agree 100%

I got my first retic after a few years with working with burms, and countless other constrictors, I knew what I was getting into and had been involed in the care of other large snakes. I chose a retic because I find them to be one of the most interesting snakes Ive ever had the pleasure of working with. They are beautiful, inteligent, and all around a great animal.

Fantastic! You are not the only one that finds fascination and awe inspiration from these types of animals. There are many individuals that have the same drive as you. As I personally would never take that away from you and say that your animal belongs in a zoo not in your hands. I would expect the same response from you. I keep and handle crocodilians, I would have to say that their level of keeping is FAR beyond large constrictors (in which I also have experience). While there are FEWER people that are qualified to work with and handle crocodilians than compared to contrictors, I understand and know quite a few respectable private keepers in which have provided a wonderful life, somewhat of equivalence to zoos.

Personally I DONT want a giant, but at the same time Im not going to hender my animals growth. My other was kinda "left" with me, and I havent placed it in a new home yet, but I doubt its going to be a permanent member of my collection, as I dont realisticly have room for 2 adults.

I admire the fact that you are atleast caring for the animal and providing it a good and EDUCATED home. We need more keepers like that in all fields. I feel as long as you do your best to provide it another home that is equal to what you can provide or better, then you have certainly done your job and I would consider you a VERY responsible member of the herp community.

>>Now on to the zoos..
>>Are zoos able to better care for their animals than private owners? duh.

You say it like it's an obvious thing. Not all zoos in my opinion are fully equipped and specialized to keep everything they do. As I am sure you have heard of several zoos giving up their elephants due to improper care and there are other animals that almost seem in the same boat depending on which zoo you go to. I have seen both.
Example: I went to the Columbus Zoo here in Ohio and was apalled at the fact that the 12' Burm on display was housed in an area equivalent to a 4'x4' cage. These displays are where the animals are consistently kept. You as well as I know that the cage is FAR too small for an animal of that size. At the same time, I went to the Toledo zoo (also in Ohio) and they had a wonderful enclosure for their Burm that was actually smaller than the one at the Columbus zoo. Not all zoos are equal and I personally dont feel that all zoos are considered "specialized" for keeping the animals that they do, because regardless of how much they claim they care for animals it has been proven in multiple locations that they CAN't properly care for everything.

Zoo enclosures are very specalized enclosures to not only meet the spacific needs of said animal but to also ensure the safety of the animal and the keepers.

Please re-read the above statement.

At a zoo you have a staff of college educated (in the feild they are working in) specalists who have been through training to deal with the animals, and have a higher understanding of behaviors and biological aspects of the animals.

Well to a point I would agree, however, with certain said animals that "College Education" obviously didnt help did it?

Not everyone has the space to properly house a 20' retic, whereas the zoo isnot only going to house the snake, but also give it room to move around and act out natural behaviors, instead of sitting at one end of the cage due to lack of option.

This is the most absurd remark I have read thus far. While I agree that not every individual has the space or resources to properly house and maintain and 20' retic, not all zoos (AZA accredited or not) have proven themselves to be either.

There is always atleast one other person on hand to back you when you have to go into the cage or deal with the animal for any reason, thats not always an option for the average hobbyist. And If you do have some on handy, are they afraid of your big snake? what would they realisticly do if you were attacked? thats not something I would want to worry about every time I went to change water.

Well here's something that I will probably have to agree on. Regardless of YOUR abilities, there needs to be somebody else available to "watch your back" so to speak. Not everyone will know what to do or will be able to react appropriately in the event that something doesnt go as planned. Personally, I have made other arrangements but not everyone thinks to do this.

As far as food goes, buying pigs can some times be difficult, and expencive... enough on that.

I agree, but if you dont have a reliable source of food, either raise your own or find another (good) home for your animal.

>>One more thing. Look at the FL everglades. There is a good population of burms, and thought to possibly be retics too. How many of those came from zoo stock?
>>I could keep rambleing on about this all day, but I think I made my point.

I agree with this remark yet another display of ignorance. I am pretty positive none came from zoo stock. Yet another reason for responsibility and stricter controls.

Yeah so could I, but I think I will leave it at this.

Thanks for your response, much appreciated!

Best Wishes,

chris

While I understand the fact that zoos might be a more 'permanent' home for a large snake, or really any animal, I disagree that they can 'care for them better' I've worked in a zoo setting, and the animals are often times put 2nd to the needs of the visitors to the zoo. If people came to see animals, and paid good money, they are going to see animals, regardless of what that does to said animals. Several times in my brief stint at one of Canada's most popular animal/biology based attractions I disagreed with the handling and treatment of the animals. If an animal is ill, it should be removed from viewing, and not stressed. Also, you don't think that 2000 little kids banging on enclosure glass everyday is stressful? this doesn't happen in a private collection.
If an animal is housed in a private collection (responsibly) then the needs of that animal are the primary concern. While I agree 100% that the large snakes, reptiles and exotics should be only owned by VERY educated private collectors, those willing to put in the time, effort and financial resources can often times provide a better home than a zoo.

....There are those private keepers who have gone beyond just hobby/keeping into becoming known breeders. Those known breeders have in most aspects achieved on a private self sufficient scale the same amount of dedication to their animals as many zoos. Having to of invested numerous years of learning, often higher education, and logical independent thought into what they do. Just as in zoos; the private breeder keeps his/her specimens in various cage setups, specialized to the needs of what species he/she is working with and conducive to propagation. Feeding and health charts are also maintained by these professionals. Many first time breedings or repetive successful breedings were done so by the private breeder. Some may go on to establish AZA approved facilities others stay in the public mainstream.

....Zoology is a broad aspect Bachelors degree, not neccessarily specialized until you go for a Masters. Alot of the older reptile keepers did not have a degree, instead having worked their way up learning from those around them as they went. Herpetology is one of the few fields where quite often the specialized private breeder is more adept at breeding and husbandry with distinct species, then the staff at a zoo reptile house. Im not trying to destroy the zoo image much of their work with mammals is applaudable and unachieveable in the hobbyist realm unless you have millions of dollars. Yet, I have seen and heard of numerous shortcomings in zoo reptile houses time and time again. From poor habitat design in displays, misshandling of specimens, to repetitive breedings of non-neccessary species.

But I digress...back to care, equipment, and the "only a zoo" philosophy.

LIGHTING- When looking at lighting or heating there is no longer a difference when compared to the private breeder. Zoos use many of the same brand names, supplies, and supplements that are on the hobbyist market. Years and years ago, the zoos did have some advantage in that they were specifically marketed to by the manufacturing companies, where as the public was left out. Publications and internet have changed this. From UV tubes, heat lights, halide bulbs, supplements and misting systems they are all available to both the zoos and hobbyists.

CAGING- As far as cages, displays aside, their caging is no different from ours. Behind the scenes out of sight there are aquariums, plastic tubs(sterilite,rubbermaid,etc..), rack systems, heat tape, troughs for turtles and the like that are used just as the hobbyist and private breeder do.

....Their floorplans typically differ from a hobbyists due to being set up for viewing. Because of this a zoological building is able to incorporate design precautions to inhibit escape. Even multiple doors between the cage and building exit work to effectively create enclosures inside enclosure. Protocal such as no open entryways, locked cages, 1 person for every 8 ft of snake are some of many to help avoid mishaps the public would witness or hear about. If one does escape they have more manpower to search, and more land to keep it seperate from the public. Lawsuits await zoos with escapees, but typically not the hobbyist with a loose boa.

DISPLAYS - Displays are aesthetically pleasing to the eye, especially that of the common layperson. Mr.Jones doesn't find any great value in seeing a snake in a zoo if it is on newspaper with water bowl and a GE bulb for heat. If anything it makes him all the more likely to skip the general information plate below the name and continue on to the next cage, wondering why he didnt just visit the pet store. This non-stimulation leads to a "customer/visitor" that doesnt learn a thing, want to spend more time, or most importantly RETURN AND SPEND MORE MONEY.
....There is intent design, involved in how to most effectively "market" educational information, yet at the same time keep attention and interest. Decorate the cage make it look natural. Allow pattern camoflauge to work and the visitor to play a "game" of find the animal. It all leads them to learning more, not neccessarily direct appreciation of the animal. Even more so they enjoy the visit and want to return.

ONLY A ZOO
The distinctive difference of zoo vs private care methods is the fact that zoos do not do the following(not that even the majority of hobbyist do).............
-OWN the animal to be cool, tough, different, unique
-TAKE the snake for a ride in the car around ones wrist/neck or on the seat beside them.
-FEED in the front yard where the ignorant masses can become grief stricken, scared or paranoid
-"WALK" their specimens in a public park, sidewalk, or mall
-ALLOW it to sunbathe by an open/screened window
-LEAVE it unattended for "only a minute" when they run to do something.

....This is the primary conduct that leads the media and general public to believe that the hobbyist, and private breeders included, are incapable of owning large constrictors, varanids, and venomous.
....As a whole we are branded by the acts of the foolish and inept.
....Unfortunately for this hobby most press is bad press. Typically following an unfortunate, and quite likely avoidable, incident come the 6 o'clock news-stories and paper prints. The media(though not always intentionally) often portray the private keeper as uneducated, irresponsible, and ill equipped to keep and maintain alternative pets. They use quotes and clips of the town idiot more frequently over the information of the educated keeper. The zoo, DNR, or HSUS rep is always called in to give the "expert" advice against private keeper and their pets

....So what do zoos have to offer? They offer an introductory experience into biology to many people that may not know it ever existed. They give to the public a taste of what is in the world, and a snapshot picture of what was or will have been if care is not taken now. They do conservation work and are to my knowledge fairly successful with many mammals.
....In the end though there are only going to be more and more humans and less and less space. All the zoos in the USA couldnt effectively handle breeding programs for what is endangered in North America, let alone the western hemisphere or the world.
....At one point Australia recognized the work done by its private breeders in the field of herpetology, but I dont think this is so any more. I would be neat to see zoos work with the private breeder to help replenish threatened species more often. I believe a group called the Turtle Trust, is a good example, but sadly pretty much the only one. Why cant a descent program be set up to diversify bloodlines and breed for re-introduction. Why not massassagua's, indigo's, and san fran garters? There could be a class to train willing breeders and strict mandatory guidelines as with many cross-over programs.

.

The zoos tired of taking in unwanted pets and supplying sera for venomous bites, are now opposing the private keeper. Ironic, as they are also frequently fighting the PETA groups as well.

There are so many aspects just touched on here that could be discussed, but for the moment I am done. Hoped it makes some sense and helps shed some light on your question.

Notah

Thank YOU!! Okay, while I am not wanting to put down the previous individual as he was still willing to reply to my question in what he felt was the best appropriate answer in his eyes, I just didnt totally agree, in which is fine because we are all entitled to our opinions and thoughts, so much appreciative to him. However, you more in depth answered my question and did it in a positive and very informative answer. Thank you very much.

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>
>>....There are those private keepers who have gone beyond just hobby/keeping into becoming known breeders. Those known breeders have in most aspects achieved on a private self sufficient scale the same amount of dedication to their animals as many zoos. Having to of invested numerous years of learning, often higher education, and logical independent thought into what they do. Just as in zoos; the private breeder keeps his/her specimens in various cage setups, specialized to the needs of what species he/she is working with and conducive to propagation. Feeding and health charts are also maintained by these professionals. Many first time breedings or repetive successful breedings were done so by the private breeder. Some may go on to establish AZA approved facilities others stay in the public mainstream.
>>
>>....Zoology is a broad aspect Bachelors degree, not neccessarily specialized until you go for a Masters. Alot of the older reptile keepers did not have a degree, instead having worked their way up learning from those around them as they went. Herpetology is one of the few fields where quite often the specialized private breeder is more adept at breeding and husbandry with distinct species, then the staff at a zoo reptile house. Im not trying to destroy the zoo image much of their work with mammals is applaudable and unachieveable in the hobbyist realm unless you have millions of dollars. Yet, I have seen and heard of numerous shortcomings in zoo reptile houses time and time again. From poor habitat design in displays, misshandling of specimens, to repetitive breedings of non-neccessary species.
>>
>> But I digress...back to care, equipment, and the "only a zoo" philosophy.
>>
>>
>> LIGHTING- When looking at lighting or heating there is no longer a difference when compared to the private breeder. Zoos use many of the same brand names, supplies, and supplements that are on the hobbyist market. Years and years ago, the zoos did have some advantage in that they were specifically marketed to by the manufacturing companies, where as the public was left out. Publications and internet have changed this. From UV tubes, heat lights, halide bulbs, supplements and misting systems they are all available to both the zoos and hobbyists.
>>
>> CAGING- As far as cages, displays aside, their caging is no different from ours. Behind the scenes out of sight there are aquariums, plastic tubs(sterilite,rubbermaid,etc..), rack systems, heat tape, troughs for turtles and the like that are used just as the hobbyist and private breeder do.
>>
>>....Their floorplans typically differ from a hobbyists due to being set up for viewing. Because of this a zoological building is able to incorporate design precautions to inhibit escape. Even multiple doors between the cage and building exit work to effectively create enclosures inside enclosure. Protocal such as no open entryways, locked cages, 1 person for every 8 ft of snake are some of many to help avoid mishaps the public would witness or hear about. If one does escape they have more manpower to search, and more land to keep it seperate from the public. Lawsuits await zoos with escapees, but typically not the hobbyist with a loose boa.
>>
>> DISPLAYS - Displays are aesthetically pleasing to the eye, especially that of the common layperson. Mr.Jones doesn't find any great value in seeing a snake in a zoo if it is on newspaper with water bowl and a GE bulb for heat. If anything it makes him all the more likely to skip the general information plate below the name and continue on to the next cage, wondering why he didnt just visit the pet store. This non-stimulation leads to a "customer/visitor" that doesnt learn a thing, want to spend more time, or most importantly RETURN AND SPEND MORE MONEY.
>>....There is intent design, involved in how to most effectively "market" educational information, yet at the same time keep attention and interest. Decorate the cage make it look natural. Allow pattern camoflauge to work and the visitor to play a "game" of find the animal. It all leads them to learning more, not neccessarily direct appreciation of the animal. Even more so they enjoy the visit and want to return.
>>
>> ONLY A ZOO
>> The distinctive difference of zoo vs private care methods is the fact that zoos do not do the following(not that even the majority of hobbyist do).............
>>-OWN the animal to be cool, tough, different, unique
>>-TAKE the snake for a ride in the car around ones wrist/neck or on the seat beside them.
>>-FEED in the front yard where the ignorant masses can become grief stricken, scared or paranoid
>>-"WALK" their specimens in a public park, sidewalk, or mall
>>-ALLOW it to sunbathe by an open/screened window
>>-LEAVE it unattended for "only a minute" when they run to do something.
>>
>>....This is the primary conduct that leads the media and general public to believe that the hobbyist, and private breeders included, are incapable of owning large constrictors, varanids, and venomous.
>>....As a whole we are branded by the acts of the foolish and inept.
>>....Unfortunately for this hobby most press is bad press. Typically following an unfortunate, and quite likely avoidable, incident come the 6 o'clock news-stories and paper prints. The media(though not always intentionally) often portray the private keeper as uneducated, irresponsible, and ill equipped to keep and maintain alternative pets. They use quotes and clips of the town idiot more frequently over the information of the educated keeper. The zoo, DNR, or HSUS rep is always called in to give the "expert" advice against private keeper and their pets
>>
>>....So what do zoos have to offer? They offer an introductory experience into biology to many people that may not know it ever existed. They give to the public a taste of what is in the world, and a snapshot picture of what was or will have been if care is not taken now. They do conservation work and are to my knowledge fairly successful with many mammals.
>>....In the end though there are only going to be more and more humans and less and less space. All the zoos in the USA couldnt effectively handle breeding programs for what is endangered in North America, let alone the western hemisphere or the world.
>>....At one point Australia recognized the work done by its private breeders in the field of herpetology, but I dont think this is so any more. I would be neat to see zoos work with the private breeder to help replenish threatened species more often. I believe a group called the Turtle Trust, is a good example, but sadly pretty much the only one. Why cant a descent program be set up to diversify bloodlines and breed for re-introduction. Why not massassagua's, indigo's, and san fran garters? There could be a class to train willing breeders and strict mandatory guidelines as with many cross-over programs.
>>
>> .
>>
>> The zoos tired of taking in unwanted pets and supplying sera for venomous bites, are now opposing the private keeper. Ironic, as they are also frequently fighting the PETA groups as well.
>>
>> There are so many aspects just touched on here that could be discussed, but for the moment I am done. Hoped it makes some sense and helps shed some light on your question.
>>
>>Notah
>>
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>>

That may have been the single most reasoned, best written response I've ever seen on kingsnake...

...an aside, I conduct in research in the everglades and just two weeks ago, we found a fat burmese crossing the road less than a mile from the park entrance. I'll include pics when my lab mates download their photos.

cheers,
gabriel gartner

Let's face it, zoo's care for a lot of animals. There are pro's and cons to zoo kept animals versus private housing. I've worked in a zoo for about 4 years. From my experience the only thing that zoo's have going for them is the professional environment. The reptiles kept at my zoo still use normal light bulbs, same food items and a slightly prettier atmosphere. The animals aren't handled and they're not getting personal attention. they get a once or twice over everyday and that's that. with the home environment often keepers look into their enclosures frequently and are more keen to their animals needs. Zoo's do whatever they can to sustain their animals but when keepers have 50 animals to tend to their not going to find that tick or that resperatory infection until it's full of blood or the animal needs medication. From my experience workign with the reptiles in my facility I realised that they'd probably get better care in the hands of a skilled reptile enthusiest. We have large retics and burms and they get fed maybe twice a year. Yes I know they don't need to eat that much but it wouldn't hurt. Things like this the zoo's over look. Only in the good zoo's will you find skilled herpetologists' looking after tyhe animals. St. Lois zoo for example has a great reptile house with great keepers. Our zoo on the other hand has ppl from toherb ackgrounds taking care of our reptiles. Needless to say they aren't the best looking reptiles and they're enclosures aren't nearly as large as they should be. We have a largae savannah monitor living in a 5' square enclosure. Most of our smaller animals are living in ten gallon aquariums. Anyhow, I just thought I'd share my views. all in all I think good private keepers have the advantage.

...and to the guy who says most ppl shouldn't keep large snakes. You my friend are in posession of the "cool" factor but not in the traditional sense. You think that since you're can shake your finger and be all uppity that you're better suited to care for large snakes. You're nto a very good embassador for our hobby. I know a 14 yr old with retics that keep them better than anyone I know. Yes a lot of people don't know what they're in for but the same thing goes for all animals. Little puppies that are left homeless after they've lost their "cute" factor.

Cheers!

I appreciate your input. I appreciate the individuals that have or do work in zoos responding to this because it certainly provides information from the other side of things.

Thanks,

Chris

>>Let's face it, zoo's care for a lot of animals. There are pro's and cons to zoo kept animals versus private housing. I've worked in a zoo for about 4 years. From my experience the only thing that zoo's have going for them is the professional environment. The reptiles kept at my zoo still use normal light bulbs, same food items and a slightly prettier atmosphere. The animals aren't handled and they're not getting personal attention. they get a once or twice over everyday and that's that. with the home environment often keepers look into their enclosures frequently and are more keen to their animals needs. Zoo's do whatever they can to sustain their animals but when keepers have 50 animals to tend to their not going to find that tick or that resperatory infection until it's full of blood or the animal needs medication. From my experience workign with the reptiles in my facility I realised that they'd probably get better care in the hands of a skilled reptile enthusiest. We have large retics and burms and they get fed maybe twice a year. Yes I know they don't need to eat that much but it wouldn't hurt. Things like this the zoo's over look. Only in the good zoo's will you find skilled herpetologists' looking after tyhe animals. St. Lois zoo for example has a great reptile house with great keepers. Our zoo on the other hand has ppl from toherb ackgrounds taking care of our reptiles. Needless to say they aren't the best looking reptiles and they're enclosures aren't nearly as large as they should be. We have a largae savannah monitor living in a 5' square enclosure. Most of our smaller animals are living in ten gallon aquariums. Anyhow, I just thought I'd share my views. all in all I think good private keepers have the advantage.
>>
>>...and to the guy who says most ppl shouldn't keep large snakes. You my friend are in posession of the "cool" factor but not in the traditional sense. You think that since you're can shake your finger and be all uppity that you're better suited to care for large snakes. You're nto a very good embassador for our hobby. I know a 14 yr old with retics that keep them better than anyone I know. Yes a lot of people don't know what they're in for but the same thing goes for all animals. Little puppies that are left homeless after they've lost their "cute" factor.
>>
>>Cheers!