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It’s a shame that it got deleted because under all the ruckus there was some pretty good stuff.

What I came away with is that there are some among the purists that want their experience in the field to overlap their experience breeding herps. I think that is an admirable goal and if one can do it for themselves I think that’s great. Others including myself however see field herping and maintaining captive herps as completely separate endeavors. Because I compartmentalize the activities, once a wild herp is taken into captivity, to me, it becomes just another “cut flower”. Thanks to Phil Peak for the phrase. Sean’s w/c goini are no different than Blaze goini in that they are both trying for some market advantage. Alternatively, if I thought for an instant that maintaining wild populations was intrinsically tied to herpetoculture I’d be more hybrid adverse and insist on more “pure” lines too. That I don’t however doesn’t mean that I never get into the field, or don’t realize that viable populations of wild herps is where its at. As I’ve said before, if Sean wants to excite me post a pic of a wild goini that was left in the field!

Aaron brought up terminology too. In his classic style, he touched the heart of the Blaze vs pure goini stand off. He proposed the following definition of a generic animals, “a subspecies for which there is not a complete known lineage yet has no specific knowledge of anything being added to it and matches the wild phenotype”. He further added that, “Such animals would be considered pure with the understanding that there may be undetectable impurities in their background.”

I think the definition was right on however I have reasons to believe we shouldn’t be using the terms “pure” or “generic”. First and foremost, PURE DENOTED SOMETHING WE CAN NOT KNOW. In my estimation its continued use is somewhat less than honest. Taxonomically even wild caught locality specimens may not be “pure”. Intergrades are not “pure”. Animals that may look like classic subspecies but live adjacent integration zones may not be “pure” due to gene flow. Also, and some will argue with this, but sometimes wild snakes hybridize and its possible that some of these offspring end up breeding back to one of the parent species.

I can’t produce an equally complete argument against using the word “generic” other than feel its use only lends credibility to those who make claims that their animals are “pure”. Those who need or desire to label stock as “pure” or “locality” are relative newcomers to the party and IMHO they need to make the case of how their stock is different or better. For them to expect others to adopt a stock label (generic) that’s meant to be derogatory relative to “pure” is neither fair nor realistic.

it is sad the post was deleted, but i saw it coming its pretty funny how insistant&passionate some folks get when it comes to getula. esp. goini,appalachicola,blotched,meansi,,,,,,
to funny,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Sean’s w/c goini are no different than Blaze goini in that they are both trying for some market advantage.

Actually I see mine as COMPLETELY different. My snakes are specimens I found myself. They weren't bred in captivity, were not possibly mixed with Brooksi, FL King, whatever, and look they way they do because they naturally evolved that way. I'm not a breeder out for profit doing whatever I can to make marketable snakes. Yes I may sell some of my offspring in the future but if they don't sell, I really don't care.

BTW, regarding your generic "goini", Kenney Krysko has done DNA studies showing that the genes in Apalachicola Kings is definitely different from Eastern and Florida Kings.

You said, "It’s a shame that it got deleted because under all the ruckus there was some pretty good stuff"
I recently told someone I argue with once in a while the same thing. I am sure he also agreed. I understand why it happens from the moderators view point but it would be so much better if they left the good stuff and deleted the bashing. Regardless, great post Tony. Tom Stevens

I think the mods could not have delete certain parts of that thread because it was so riddled with nonsense that it what would have been left is incomprehensible. I have seen them do wonderful jobs fixing other threads in the past. I am a firm believer that these sites need to be moderated because we see what happens. I would prefer people leave out their personal attacks and post what is edifying to the herp community, but also think if someone is being called names or other inflamatory posts they should publicly defend themselves....which will lead to the threads getting deleted.

I collected and kept rosy boas and had an extensive field collection knowledge of boas in the 80's. With some rosys its all about locale because their rock outcroppings are isolated clumps in the middle of the desert. Some areas were connected had lots of intergration but those small isolated communities are the closest thing to locale specific animals.

Then you have island pops that have no way of intergrading and have been undisturbed by man. The islands off the calif and baja coasts are an example.

In Florida you have millions of residents moving about and re-releasing animals as well as non-native species being released. I am also sure that since the advent of the albino calif king many a Florida resident has released crossed species into the wild. Combine that with natural intergration and natural hybridization (the cornxyellow and corn x blackrats come to mind) and you have a hogposh of snakes in Florida. So one cannot say this is a pure goini and this one is not just because you found it yourself.

You can't comapre herpetofauna in Florida with other parts of the world where you have diverse elevations and and sudden changes in climate causing more isolated populations.

I don't think we should avoid the word "pure". There are some instances where it is the most accurate description. Simply saying "I have a Chain King for sale" implys that it is a pure Chain King. All of the terms intergrade, hybrid, cross also imply that somewhere there are pure animals. With some snakes like Rubber Boas it is easier to say "They are pure Rubber Boas" because this species is not known to hybridize but to say "These are pure locality X Rubber Boas" is harder because of the reasons you stated. There is more but I think these are some good points and I have to get to work now.

..if someone said, "I have a Chain King for sale" it would simply mean that he/she has a king that is phonotypically an eastern king but I'm curious why you would expect it to mean more? The statement doesn't imply anything else!

I would add to that phenotyically and say that there is also no known introduction of genes from other subspecies or intergrades. I think there will always be a gray area with intergrades as well as taxonomic changes and that is part of the reason for the rise and usefulness of locality data.

Aaron I feel like you and I have a long history on this subject so I'm not going to chase our collective tail any longer! LOL Suffice it to say I think you are one of two moderate locality or purity voices on these forums (the other's KJ on the Pit forum) that truely promote what the approach has to offer. Thanks for putting up with my devil's advocate possition for so long.

In Florida you have millions of residents moving about and re-releasing animals as well as non-native species being released. I am also sure that since the advent of the albino calif king many a Florida resident has released crossed species into the wild. Combine that with natural intergration and natural hybridization (the cornxyellow and corn x blackrats come to mind) and you have a hogposh of snakes in Florida. So one cannot say this is a pure goini and this one is not just because you found it yourself.

I think finding a pure "goini" in the wild is ALOT more reliable than trying to find one from a breeder today. In South Florida with the numbers of exotics and introduced species being found, you may have a point. For it to affect an entire population of one species though would take years. Given that the range of "goini" is limited to a small area in the panhandle, one would have have to release many California Kings for example and wait years to see if it has any kind of impact. How many of those California Kings if released would survive? And if they did survive, how many do you think would make it to adulthood and actually breed with "goini"? I'm not sure of anyone that has that amount of time and stock they are willing to breed and release to do such a thing.

In captivity though, people have been crossing "goini" with FL Kings for years. Given the fact that alot of breeders simply do not know where their "goini" originated from, I would say if you want pure "goini", finding one yourself is the best solution.

Come on Sean, goini are a form that is currently under considerable transition. Interbreeding with easterns is widespread and Florida kings further influence those chain kings to the east of goini.

I certainly understand the desire to locate your own specimens and how a collection of such animals would have more meaning to the collector but that pride and meaning by and large would not transfer to those who would buy your neonates. You seem to advocate that we abandon the achievements of herpetoculture and go back to the time when keeping pet snakes was largely supported by market collecting so that we can all share your level of enthusiasm? At very least you imply reasonable people should abandon existing stocks and starting all over again, maybe with your animals! Now you might not see that as trying to gain market advantage but I sure do.

That the Florida populations of unique kingsnakes that are found within a known range, be given the same recognition that other highly valued herps are. And by this, are not subjected to every form of inbreeding, outbreeding, and hybridizing that corn snakes and Cal kings have.
For example, the alterna kings of west Texas and environs have become more highly valued (both intrinsically and financially)in recent years because breeders are working hard at keeping locality specific populations as pure as possible. Yes, I know....tell you what 'pure' really means. But most of you know what I mean by this.
Rosy boas are another example of an animal that breeders try and keep as stable phenotypes.
What Sean and others (like myself) are concerned with is that many kingsnake breeders, in their never ending quest to produce the latest thing, will breed anything together to get that mutation.
Also, why folks like us are so concerned is this---and I am not pointing fingers at anyone---but there are MANY colubrid breeders out there who lack credibility, honesty and integrity. We all know this.
Bluerosy even stated that he had met Florida 'backyard breeders' who were releasing non-native animals. Need I say anything more?

You hit on the issue when you brought up honesty and reliability. What really starts all of this is the assumption that because a given breeder works with hydrids or crosses he can't be trusted to work with "pure" lines. The assumption strongly implies that purists have some type of ethical advantage and that just isn’t the case. This assumption has led some to level false accusations against fellow breeders. In the case against Blaze goini, both the assumption and resulting accusation have been soundly proven false.

So to carry this on, tell me something that would lead me to believe that the purists have cornered the market on integrity. And while you’re at it, please do tell what most of us understand pure to mean because IMHO too many use the term too freely and are in fact the ones being less than honest.

I can only go by my personal experiences that have spanned over thirty years in the hobby.
If you want me to admit that I have found locality conscious breeders to be more ethical than those who are intent on being the first to come up with the 'newest' eye candy then OK I will. In my experience they are, not always mind you, but usually, more ethical. Sorry if that offends.
Having said that, I also fully realize that there are those who try and pass off animals as known locality forms when in fact they have no idea where the animal is from. There are scumbags in all walks of Herpetology.
If you are going to try and suck me into an arguement about 'pure forms' of reptiles forget it. If you want to close your eyes to the fact that there are phenotypically distinct populations of snakes that are found with a given area, go ahead.
But go tell that to the folks who are breeding alterna kings, the various Boa constrictors, rosy boas and on and on. Go tell them that they are wasting their time.

I agree completely. Phil

Very well said Carl!

To Carl was this:

"tell me something that would lead me to believe that the purists have cornered the market on integrity. And while you’re at it, please do tell what most of us understand pure to mean because IMHO too many use the term too freely and are in fact the ones being less than honest."

Answers? None that I saw but you all say well said. I can see I'm wasting my time.

To Carl was this:

"tell me something that would lead me to believe that the purists have cornered the market on integrity. And while you’re at it, please do tell what most of us understand pure to mean because IMHO too many use the term too freely and are in fact the ones being less than honest."

Tony, Some of us here value those snakes found in the wild and when it comes to certain species, they may be called pure, locale specific, wild caught or whatever term comes to mind. When I think of a pure Eastern King (lampropeltis getula getula) for example, I think of the typical pattern and known range where these are known to be found. If I get out in the field and find an Eastern King in it's known range, I am going to say it's pure or locale specific. This is what I understand to be pure and may not be what everyone else believes but I think many would agree.

In the CB market today, yes the word pure is used way too freely by way too many breeders. This is why I and many others prefer to either find what we're looking for in the field or know the person we're obtaining the snake from. If you want to say purists have "cornered the market on integrity" because of that, I would have to say for me, I will only buy a snake from someone I know and trust. I want a specific snake so I am going to expect it. Get to know some of the other people that get out in the field and value the same thing and I think you'll find most are more honest than the breeders out there looking to make a profit.

Tony, he's right! Well said is an agreement to his philosophy about w.c.,locale specific snakes. I haven't run across any introduced snakes, nor would I expect to! I don't herp in my backyard much, but in the boonies and known range of my target species. I have been finding some interesting stuff where I wasn't expecting it and that is where the joy is for me! There are tons of pure snakes out there, and the qualifying words are "out there", most commonly not in a breeder's cage. There are many folks working hard to produce locality specimens and I applaude their work, but unless I caught it, or know who caught it AND trust them, I don't and can't see my way to buying a snake from them. I just don't know where it's been!
Todd Hughes

"Get to know some of the other people that get out in the field"

As if I already don't or am not one of them? I'm trying to make a fine point and you guys counter with broad statement. Point of fact is that I spend more time in the field than most its just that as I've gotten older the quest for snakes is not the focus of my field time. Sorry to say I don't see as many snakes because I avoid trash piles and head for more pristine areas where I can let nature clear my head.

Question, why would I have to learn or try to, as you say, "value the same thing" to find that most field collecting locality guys are, to quote you again, "more honest than the breeders out there looking to make a profit"? Shouldn't their honesty be self evident regardless of my values?

Guys, I'm trying to be intraspective in this but its becoming obvious that you do not wish to see the bias in your own conclusion?

Hey Sean, ever go to your favorite hunting spot and find all your debris has already been flipped? And then of course you don't find many snakes that day....it does happen. I have to wonder how many people are collecting snakes in the field....and what they're doing with them. This is one of the reasons I am happy to work with morphs,,,no one is out collecting them, they're reproduced in captivity. I know some[maybe even most] of the guys on here despise over collecting, but all this talk is probably inspiring some people to give it a try as far as catching their own stock. I know it is neccesary sometimes to take snakes out of the wild, but still,,,,,since captive born snakes are plentiful I would rather not inspire people to go and attempt to start thier own line of locale specific snakes because they read these posts and think they will somehow get more respect than if they buy from what is already available. Tom Stevens

This would relate to each individuals experience but mine has been that those with an interest in locality seem to be motivated by a genuine affection for the snakes. Those into morphs are more apt to be chasing a dime.

I would have to think there are exceptions in both camps but as a trend this has been my experience.

If I had a dollar for every time I had heard some novice snake keeper going on about his "get rich" schemes with the latest and hottest new morph I'd have enough peso's to buy me some of those fancy new blaze morphs lol! Phil

-----

well said....... Tom Stevens

Thanks Tom, I'd have continued the discussion but seems my posts are no longer appropriate.

Proabably the best post I have seen in this whole discussion. To bad it was deleted. I don't think it was deleted for anything inflamatory because there wasn't anything in it like that that I saw. I think it was deleted because of someones response and a mod deleted the whole thing.

To bad because it was the best point of this whole discussion.

I am a fan of all snakes. I think trying to keep wild types readily available[and trying to keep them protected in the wild] and people interested in them is great. However some get bent out of shape over morphs which are not easily identified. Yet these arguments seem somehow different when it comes too wild caughts for a few reasons. Namely who found them and where they found them. Same goes for when different looks appear from breeding wild caughts from a specific locale. Which goes back to credibility. As if reputation is the bottom line when believing how an unusual look for any given snake makes it too the hobby. So why would I pursue the task of keeping locale specific snakes when even if I catch the stock myself people will doubt me because of other things I am interested in? If I have video footage of me catching the snakes in the wild with a dozen witnesses....it will still come back to non believers bashing me if something unusual appears when they produce...therefor I stick with what makes me happiest....morphs. Tom Stevens

You got something there Tom. I have a fantastic line of local corns from the mountains of VA and wide banded eastern kings from N.E. North Carolina (of which I thried to give a pair to Hillson). Guess because I also bought a neat pair of albino thayeri X ruthvens from Jeff C. my local stuff is worthless despite 20 years of honorably dealings with fellow herpers. At least now I know why Keith didn't want the kings I pulled off that construction site. My rep has been tainted simply because I'm not hybridphobic.

I basically said the same thing down a few posts here:
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=849429,850470

For what it's worth Tony I consider you credible. To me it is not about whether someone keeps hybrids, generics or morphs. I was one had a female Grayband from 8 miles west of Langtry that I had collected. I had a male from 3.5 miles west that a friend had collected. Nowadays I consider that close enough but then I didn't. I wanted to pair it up with something closer and I told this to another locality alterna breeder. He sold me a snake that he said would go fine with my female. Since he knew I had a male from 3.5 and I specifically told him I wanted something closer I thought that's what I was getting when he told me the male he was selling me was from Osman Canyon. After I bought the snake a friend who was more familiar with the Langtry area told me Osman Canyon was even farther away than the 3.5 male I had. I was upset because this breeder knew the area very well and although he did not lie and say directly Osman Cyn. was closer he did chose his words to be carefully vague when he said it would go fine with my female when I had been very clear with him about what I wanted. I feel this example well illustrates that it is an individual thing and no clique within the hobby holds a monopoly on integrity.

Thanks I thought so too. Never thought for a moment that I'd get upset about a deleted post but have to admit it has me thinking about my continued participation here.

Thanks I thought so too. Never thought for a moment that I'd get upset about a deleted post but have to admit it has me thinking about my continued participation here.

Don't be so quick to judge Tony. We don't know the ins and outs behind the deleted post.

I like coming here and BSing, and posting, and looking at pics. It has it's fair share of headaches but what doesn't?
Tom Stevens

That is an excellent point Sean. I prefer not to take someones word for it but rather collect my stock myself or acquire them from a trusted friend that also esteems and understands why locality is important.

Some not only expect the best but demand it. Of course it is easier to buy some snake on a table at a reptile swap than it is to spend countless hours in the field acquiring your own. When its all said and done though you know what you have and you know it was worth efforts of your pursuits. Phil

Some of us understand this Phil. Many don't. I can certainly understand the desire some have for colorful snakes and new morphs and such but the fact is it's hard to know what you really are getting these days. I'm not saying all breeders are untrustworthy but too many are. The number of posts on here stating "What kind of snake is this" keeps getting more and more common and even though people are asking, they don't seem to have a problem buying the snake anyway. I, like you, like to know what I am getting and choose to demand the best as you say. Plus it is so much more rewarding just to be in the field.

Agreed!
Todd Hughes

That's a great way to put it, Phil. I understand THAT completely! I know there are reputable breeders and will acquire some snakes through them, but for me and my projects, I prefer to make my own luck!
Todd Hughes

Hey Todd, Where are you from?

Corpus Christi, Texas!

If you are suggesting that Florida has become a giant melting pot of mixed colubrid genes that is a real stretch. I mean a REAL stretch.
Further, to suggest that the populations within the Apalachicola National Forest are now tainted with non-native genes is laughable.
Yes, there have been a very, VERY few individual escaped/released
non-native colubrids that have turned up. But these animals have been found in residential areas mostly in Dade and Broward Counties.
Believe it or not, Florida is a huge state with many remote and out of the way places like the Apalach.
Besides, morons who intentially release their captives are hardly going to go to the trouble of traveling far out into a place like a national forest to do so.

What I meant by releasing tainted Florida kings was that since the inception of the first albino California kingsnake herpers in Florida have been breeding them to their backyard native species. The Florida king and calif king are really easy to breed together and this practice has been going on for a long time. I spent some of my time at Florida shows like the Tampa show and there you will find breeders who have been refining their outbred albino Florida kings for many years. They will also tell you that over the many hets have been released (by them) into the locale pops.

I don't know the exact year the albino Cal king came avaliable but its been a while. Before the albino Cal king Florida herpers were backyard breeding the normal cal kings into the what they picked up in their backyards. Gosh I can't imagine how many of those got out or were realesed.

drats

The Burmese python is an exception. I have found five myself! I found four in the ENP and one on US1 south of Florida City.
But also, the Burmese python is also an animal that is far more likely to be released into a place like the ENP than most other herps. Also, I would wager that the number of released pythons, because of their size, is far greater than any other reptile.
Well, OK, maybe except for the redeared slider.

I was just joking, but it is interesting that you have found 5 of them!

I hope they don't have an impact on the true local fauna, but if they eat feral cats maybe they'll do a service.

Cane toads, anyone?

I can tell you this, I've seen 3 different picture sequences showing the Alligators having an impact on those Burms! Apparently they make great snacks, and the Gators are happy to help. On the other hand, the "Miami Phase" Burm comment was pretty funny, not withstanding the actual stupidity of that problem happening in the first place.

Eimon

PS- now, can we please get back to arguing about the Lampros........LOL.

This is a great place, but sometimes we all take ourselves to seriously.

Well, not me, but you know what I mean.

Enjoy them snakes!

"but you know what I mean"

Is everyone here a telepath but me? LOL

Yes, the Burmese pythons are found fairly regularly in the Everglades National Park. The largest one I caught was 9 feet and the smallest (the US1 animal) was only 4 feet. They are breeding within the Park for sure but as to the actual impact on native animals, well that remains to be seen.
I am PRETTY SURE though that they are not breeding with the local kingsnakes.

Believe it or not I actually have good friends that dabble in morphs. Just because we don't always agree on all points of the hobby does not mean we do not respect each other. I don't really care if someone takes a few shots at me on a forum like this. I take it all in stride and as for myself I tend not to get emotional as some seem to do. To me its all in fun and I have ill will towards none.

I do like discussion on some of these topics and those that know me know I have no trouble with laying it out there. Anyhow, I feel you are completely misguided when you state things such as this,

" Those who need or desire to label stock as “pure” or “locality” are relative newcomers to the party and IMHO they need to make the case of how their stock is different or better. "

This implies that you just don't get it. Locality animals are what they are. No more, no less. Just because they are placed in a rubbermaid does not negate thousands of years of evolutionary history associated with a snake from a particular locality. The only thing that does happen is natural selection ends there. There is no getting around this. As to your "newcomer" statement I find the exact opposite to be true. I have seen many budding herp enthusiest that somehow feel a need to acquire a new snake each week and mix and match with all the latest trendy designer snakes. I have also seen a number of these folks evolve over time and realize that what attracted them to the hobby in the first place was usually early encounters with snakes in the wild. I then see these people eventually gravitating back towards real snakes and actually wanting to learn about their natural history and in some cases having a desire to make field observations. This is what I call coming full circle and at that point that hobbyist is on a different level. Phil

I grew up catching and keeping snakes from the wild and didn't realize the number of morphs until I got older and they were bred more. As you already know, I used to breed Corns. But my passion lied within getula specifically Eastern Kings and now the Apalachicolas. To me, catching these snakes in the wild is as pure as you can get. I think the problem today within this hobby is the ever increasing amount of crossing going on and the breeders implying that nothing is pure anymore. If I find an Eastern King out in the middle of nowhere smack dab in the heart of the Eastern King's known range, I'm going to call it a pure Eastern King. The likelihood of that animal being crossed with anything else is highly unlikely. Very unlikely! I think alot of these breeders crossing different species and subspecies want to validate what they are doing by implying nothing is pure anymore. Some of us know they're certainly stretching it quite far.

I agree with Phil, although I get off on finding "real" morphs in the wild, where they naturally intergrade, and the studies are coming in from some regular guys that there is a wider range of (intergradation?)than previously known! Our little projects with the "deckled" or "splesert" kings as i like to call 'em and the mealmhorrums are playing out very well along the s. Texas coast. I just like being in the field more, but can really appreciate a burgandy milk or a blaze phase king. Just glad to have the best of both worlds, the great outdoors and the internet!
Todd Hughes

Thanks Todd. It seems the more you learn about the natural world the more interesting things come to light such as the intergrades you are referring too. I would like to hear more about what you have seen there in Texas. Phil

Thanks Sean. You make some good points yourself. In the world of reptile shows and internet message boards many of these folks have never had the pleasure of seeing a king in the field. For them its easy to make assumptions on something they know nothing about. I think a lot of these fellas would be in for an awakening if they were to take a few days off and hit some tin fields out on some old dirt roads. The confines of ones home or a swap meet in no place to learn about these sort of things. I think it would do them some good and in the end be very beneficial to their psyche.

I know many herp people that have never once set foot in the field. These are good people and on many occasions good hobbyist with commendable husbandry skills. As long as they don't preach to me about "purity" we get along just fine lol!
Phil

No I do get it Phil, once they are taken from the wild they no longer contribute to the evolutionary process. They are dead end cut flowers as far as biology goes.

I whole heartedly agree that there is room for everybody in this sand box, believe it or not my favorite snake in my entire collection is a locality corn from the mountains of VA.

What I don't appriciate is the slamming (implicit or explicit) of those involved in other than pure endeviors in commercial herpetoculture. CB herps in general have led to the decline of market collecting (at least in the US), their ease of aquisition has introduced many to the world of herps who might never have otherwise had the oppertunity and last but certainly not least their activities pay for this site through fees for classified, banner ads and other services.

I'm glad to live in an area where I can get out on a regular basis and have a nearly constant reminder of where all this started but others aren't so fortunate. I'm perfectly glad to have albino eye candy around if some kids mom will let him keep a more domesticated looking form in the bedroom.

No I do get it Phil, once they are taken from the wild they no longer contribute to the evolutionary process. They are dead end cut flowers as far as biology goes.

I think it's all how you look at it. Obviously you see it one way Tony. I on the other hand know once I breed my WC pair of Apalachicola Kings that I found myself and breed their offspring and so on and so on, I will still know I have Apalachicola Kings with nothing else ever bred into them. To me, the flowers will blossom every year I produce more offspring!

I think it's all how you look at it. Obviously you see it one way Tony. I on the other hand know once I breed my WC pair of Apalachicola Kings that I found myself and breed their offspring and so on and so on, I will still know I have Apalachicola Kings with nothing else ever bred into them. To me, the flowers will blossom every year I produce more offspring!

..and "I" have snakes like that also. At one time I had 300 locality rosy boas which I collected myself or bred from my own w/c stock. I also choose to do some crosses. So what makes you different (or more trustworthy) in the purist dept? Because you don't own a snake that is a morph or a snake that you didn't collected yourself? What happens to the babies you sell?

..and "I" have snakes like that also. At one time I had 300 locality rosy boas which I collected myself or bred from my own w/c stock. I also choose to do some crosses. So what makes you different (or more trustworthy) in the purist dept? Because you don't own a snake that is a morph or a snake that you didn't collected yourself? What happens to the babies you sell?

The only difference I can state is in regards to kingsnakes of the Apalachicola Region. As of right now Kevin Enge, Pierson Hill, and myself are the only three people I know of that have WC specimens that they found. I have yet to find any other breeders that have actually found their stock. And only one person, Len Krysko, knew where his WC pair originally came from.

As for trustworthy, I leave that up to other people to decide for themselves. I know what I have and I know what I value and that is what is important to ME. And I can not control what happens to the babies I may sell. Once it leaves my hands, it's up to the other person to honestly represent what they have.

The irony is killing me!! Sounds to me like you're just going back to the beginning of the problem! If you really cared you'd work towards a system that would overcome ad hoc herpetoculture's short comings in tracking lineages. Taking animals from the wild for personal desire and with no plan to improve the situation sounds kind of selfish to me.

It is selfish. I never said I collected these snakes to please other people. But it is rewarding to share that with others who enjoy my finds. And if it contributes to the hobby in any way, that will be great too.

BTW, when did this come down to a what is "pure" discussion to a what I should do discussion?

I think the tie in is the ethical superiority of purists. One would think intent and direction of actions play into that determination. For the record Sean I'm not intent on throwing stones at you, I'm just bigging deep into the issue. any time this stops being fun let me know.

I think the point from this whole discussion grew from "what is pure" to now "ethical superiority of purists". Some of us stated what we value. Whether you value the same thing or not is up to you. I'm not saying one person or the other is superior. It's quite simple. Stop digging so deep...you're going to give yourself a headache.

I don't believe anyone here is pretending that natural selection will take place in a rubbermaid tub. However, at the same time thousands of years of evolutional history is not dissolved simply because a locality snake is now housed in an artificial environment and not crawling through a corn field. That genetic material is still intact. The fact is not one of us will be around in a thousand years to see what trajectory (if any!) any given snake species or subspecies takes. The evolutionary process is a continuum. In essence your argument is irrelevant.

As for who has the most credibility? This is for each of us to decide based on our personal experience. I know very honest and reputable breeders on both sides of the fence and some that do both morphs and locality. I have absolutely nothing against those that breed snakes and sell them. This is the driving force of herpetoculture. I can tell you this. I have never sold a wild caught snakes nor have I ever sold any of the offspring I have produced from wild caught snakes here in KY, and this has been a lot. This is a personal choice but I think its a testament to my integrety. I know other locality guys like myself. I have never met a morph breeder that gave away snakes though. Phil

np