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Hatched out the F2 gen and I got what seems to be a ghost. In a 4 rgg clutch last year I got one dead, 2 melanistic looking crosses and one hypo. This year all the eggs have bnot hatched out yet but I got one ghost looking hypo, one melanistic and 3 normal red/yellows. The normals look just like the parent F1 stock.

hypo looking Ghost that just hatched.

hypo ghost along with melanistic and normal:

Here is what last years hypo looked like:

and last years melanistic looking ones:

Not sure what to make of these but I have gotten 4 different types out of this F2 breeding. I think one normal looking reddish hypo is still in the egg. I would have to guess this darker gene comes from the Bumblebee eastern that I got from Kevin Enge and not the hypo brooksi since their would have been ghosts popping up form that line a long time ago.

well....
it could be a ghost phase if your eastern kings are anerythristic (black and white, duhhhhh......is there a chance in the world for a wild population of anerythristic kings?) as i sarcastically suggested in the deleted section from yesterday. otherwise it looks like your hypo influence throws yellow and red/orange babies.

the ghost pictured below was not involved in this breeding experiment.

Posted by: daveb at Wed Jul 20 17:57:18 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

well....
it could be a ghost phase if your eastern kings are anerythristic (black and white, duhhhhh......is there a chance in the world for a wild population of anerythristic kings?) as i sarcastically suggested in the deleted section from yesterday. otherwise it looks like your hypo influence throws yellow and red/orange babies.

These light colored hypos cme from this F1 female. So it is possible that another gene is flaoting around in the eastern somewhere.

It would be intersting if some of the other N. florida animals that originated from Kevin Enge will throw melanistic looking offspring this year.

Man Rainer, that Ghost looking one is incredible! I'll buy it from you,lol!

It would be intersting if some of the other N. florida animals that originated from Kevin Enge will throw melanistic looking offspring this year.

What?? The animals in question do not look remotely melanistic. I have yet to hear/read/find information about ANY melanistic eastern kings, or melanistic florida kings being reported. And IF the melanistic gene was involved in your breeding project, you would've seen a lot more surprises and variety in a clutch. The ones you are calling "melanistic" look just like normal eastern kings to me. Nice ghostly intergrade though...

Mike
Michael's Place

-----
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KingPin Reptiles Inc.
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www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

What?? The animals in question do not look remotely melanistic. I have yet to hear/read/find information about ANY melanistic eastern kings, or melanistic florida kings being reported.

Thats because people are not breeding eatern kings siblings togther as much as other kings.

And IF the melanistic gene was involved in your breeding project, you would've seen a lot more surprises and variety in a clutch. The ones you are calling "melanistic" look just like normal eastern kings to me.

How many more surpruses are you talking about? In this clutch I have normals, melanistics, one hypo and one ghost. All the possiblities have been exhausted and there could be no more surprises unless they were triplen hets for something.
I will post pics of the entire clutch when they all finish hatching out.

The ones you are calling "melanistic" look just like normal eastern kings to me

I agree with you there and I did not think anything of them last year. But this year I got the red/yellow normals along with the black and white ones. You have to remember I produced probably a couple hundred of these over the years and not until I bred the F2 sibs I get the black and white ones. All the others looked like this:

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={1906545D-213B-4558-B658-EF35E21E91D6}&exp=f&moddt=38384.5489843403

typical F1 eastern x hypo brooksi

The black and white ones are NOT melanistic. An eastern king with white bands, would you consider that melanistic? No. You would consider it a normal eastern chain king.

If there was such a thing as melanistic eastern kings or melanistic florida kings, like I said before there would be more of variety in the clutch. Since there are no melanistics of either, no one would know what new color morphs could be devised from such a breeding.

But you have, from the looks of your pics, nothing that you can call melanistic....

Mike
Michael's Place

-----
Michael's Place has updated, better caresheets
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

If there was such a thing as melanistic eastern kings or melanistic florida kings, like I said before there would be more of variety in the clutch. Since there are no melanistics of either, no one would know what new color morphs could be devised from such a breeding.

Michael
You not making any sense.

...

lol.

Ok....

For all you know, for all anyone knows, the hypomelanistic gene could be compatible with the melanistic gene. The anerythristic gene could be compatible with the melanistic gene.

But.... since there are no melanistics of either species, and you don't have any in your breeding project, you cannot be sure if it would or if it wouldn't yield new morphs.

So like I said, there would be more surprises in an F2 breeding of those, other than the ghost....

Mike
Michael's Place

-----
Michael's Place has updated, better caresheets
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

AGAIN, your not making any sense.

I am not sure you understand what you are talking about.

Whatever the first pic is I love it. I like em all actually, I am glad I have a pair of these to mess with. Tom Stevens

Not sure what to make of these but I have gotten 4 different types out of this F2 breeding. I think one normal looking reddish hypo is still in the egg. I would have to guess this darker gene comes from the Bumblebee eastern that I got from Kevin Enge and not the hypo brooksi since their would have been ghosts popping up form that line a long time ago

Kevin Enge bred Easterns and their offspring for years. If there was any kind of "darker gene" in his Bumblebee line, I'm pretty sure he would have come across it at some point.

What you say you think is melanistic looks more like axanthic to me. If that snake was melanistic, I'm pretty sure it would be mostly black and the bands wouldn't be as noticeable. Here is a pic of an axanthic FL King from Crimson King's website that looks identical to yours in coloration.

Given that the axanthic gene is quite commonly bred among FL and Brooksi and you do not see any morphs of the Eastern (except Albino which has been discussed here before), I would say this is coming from your Brooksi and definitely not the Eastern Kings.

I have bred the hypo brooksi back to its sibs before and never got anything but hypos. The hypo brooksi used was purchased from David Beard many years ago when the price was still very high. So I think its the eastern I got from kevin Enge.

As far as what type of dark pigment I don't know. They don't look axanthic/anerthristic to me. I hate the names people assign to these traits because its really not well defined as far as what is going on with within all these reccessive traits. When i hatched them out last year they certainly did not look like anything out of the ordinary and I just thought it was normal for some intergrades to pop out dark phenotypes.

What i do find strange is why people have a hard time accepting a melanistic or axanthic ect gene in a eastern king in the first place. If people would breed new wildcaught snakes sibs back to each oither you would see more new stuff appear. Instead with small gene pools of certain species and some of the more unpopular ones (aka eastern kings) have not been bred back to the parent forms as much because they have not taken off in the hobby. I beleive if you hold back the females from a clutch of wildcaught adults and breed the daughters back to the father and the son back to the mother one has a HUGE certainty that new reccssive traits will appear.

*On a side note I had something else pop out today with the Peanut Butters that is a genetic nightmare. I am having a hard time trying to get my mind around it because it makes no sense to me and I have never seen or heard of anything like it before. I will post what I am talking about in two weeks because I should wait for the neonates to shed. Its really mindblowing stuff though.Really.

The hypo brooksi used was purchased from David Beard many years ago when the price was still very high.

RW,
Don't you mean DOUG Beard??

Kaniff

KK,

yes, you are correct. It is Doug Beard. Not David. I think I paid $700. or $750.

Kevin Enge held many offspring and bred them back to the parents for many years. Many of the offspring were even bred to each other and nothing but normals came from them. Eastern kings have been bred for years. I would think if there were any kind of hidden genes within them, it would have certainly appeared by now. But to breed a hypo brooksi with an Eastern and say the gene came from Eastern Kings is definitely pushing it given all the known morphs among brooksi today.

I hear what you are saying Sean. But you have to consider many of the hypos came from Doug Beard and no ghosts popped up. Maybe this is just a light hypo?

I did have another hypo hatch out that is identical to last years hypo. Side by side they are a mile apart. There is definetly something going on we cannot understand.

Wasn't it you Sean, who said a while back that the intergrade zone in N. Florida has some black and white kings? If so maybe the change in color is a normal occurance from red yellow 1st gen to black and white second gen.

F1 (thin bands)

F1 (sib to above)

F2 from last year

Wasn't it you Sean, who said a while back that the intergrade zone in N. Florida has some black and white kings? If so maybe the change in color is a normal occurance from red yellow 1st gen to black and white second gen.

No that wasn't me. I think the Easterns found more north are probably more black and white though.

all of the reds/yellows to be eliminated just do to normal clutch variation. Also all of the bands on the white and black ones are thinner. Normal variation should have some black and white ones with thick banding and some red/yellow ones with very thin bands. It seems like a gene, but it is strange that it never poped up in the eastern's line or the brooksi's line prior to this breeding. Maybe it's an axanthic gene that must be coupled with the hypo gene (hetero or homo)to be expressed?
Heck if I know,

Alton

lets keep it simple ,sometimes the Jones dont breed w/ the Mc Coys primarily because they havnt met .
but all i can think of is the Geography . an intergrade is suseptable and almost proven. but due to human intervention ROADWAYS it is risky to cross the road[not that they know that]it may be BS but think about it.Im talking about ANF x Easterns
I may be all wrong but?C