Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Help, my dad's subadult Fischer's chameleon is really sick!

A few days ago, he stopped opening one of his eyes. Now he won't open either one and is extremely lethargic and keeping going to the bottom of the cage. He's pretty much staying in the lime green color he turns when he sleeps all the time now. At first I thought he might be sleepwalking but now I know he can't open his eyes at all.

I took him out and tried to open his mouth. I had to pry it open and found a greyish pink color rather than the reddish pink it used to be. Before, if I were to pick the chameleon up too abruptly or disrupt him in some way, he wouldn't hesitate to open his mouth up.

Just last week he was healthy and all over his cage, had lots of energy. Now I think he's dying and we can't find anything about it in the books we have. Please help us if you are able. We don't know what else to do and I don't think there are any vets nearby specializing in exotics. We don't want him to suffer...

-Kelly

i know little about fishers i am sure someone on here knows alot about them but i wasnder if he could be dehidrated if so there are several meathods to try but more info on your husbandry would help example,day/night temp,cage perameters,basking temp,current hydration mwathods like drip,mist,humidifier and so on. Also go and post on the suforum under health or medical i forget what its called hope someone here has some input we will try to help

He is in serious trouble and you will need to find a herp vet or arrange for your local vet to consult with one by phone. In the "help and resources" link to this forum there should be a link to a list of know herp vets by region or state. Could you please describe his setup (temps, humidity, cage, lighting by brand, gutload, dusting schedule, watering, etc). Most cham health problems are due to environment, but we can't begin to help unless we know the details. Is he gaping? Doesn't sound like URI from your description. He is either fighting some type of infection, over or under supplementation, or dehydration. Fischer's are sensitive to vitamin and mineral supplements, and can easily dehydrate too.

He's in a screened cage with an arboreal set-up. Lots of branches and leaves. He gets fed 2-3 dusted crickets daily and has been eating heartily since my dad got him, and is still eating well, even now. There is a strip light and a heat lamp on one side of the cage with no heat source on the other side so he can self-regulate. I don't know what the average temperature is because it varies throughout the cage. I don't know what you mean by "gutload" and "dusting schedule." He is misted 2-3 times a day. I just placed the humidity gauge inside the cage but I think it could be broken because it is staying right at 50 but the cage should definitely be higher humidity, especially since I recently misted. By gaping, I assume you mean mouth hanging open. If so, no. No apparent breathing problems. No fluids visible.

My dad got some eyedrops but I'm not sure if they are going in because the chameleon's eyes are closed. The eyes themselves are sunken in slightly. Last night, he shed some skin off of one eye.

Just a few minutes ago, I placed a shallow dish with about an inch of water at the base of the enclosure in case he needed to rehydrate--advice from someone on another board. I placed him in the water where he stayed for a few minutes; then he went up to the strip light and basked for awhile; then came back down to the water and stood in it again; now he is at the heat lamp basking. Maybe such actions are an indication of dehydration? Could that cause the problems with the eyes?

He's been a lot more active today, roaming all over the cage, feeling his way around without opening his eyes. He's eaten all the crickets offered to him. When I took him out of the cage to try the eyedrops, he reacted more defensively instead of passively, and open his mouth in a threat pose. Good signs, I hope?

I'm going to read up further on this species now. I was told that this was a very hearty species so I'm surprised that my dad is having trouble only a few months after getting the chameleon. There is a lizard specialist at one of the local petstores who has been out of town but comes back tomorrow. My dad is going to talk with her and if she has nothing to offer, we might look into finding a vet. This may sound harsh, but if it's too expensive to go the vet, my dad probably won't take it. This was a $25 animal--the cage and setup cost way more than the animal.... a couple hundred or thousand dollars for specialized care and treatment just aren't in the cards, unfortunately.

I will keep you all updated. Thanks!

-Kelly

Alright, it's working and at about 65 humidity.

first off,the vet should not cost several hundred or a thousand as you put it,but it will surly cost much more than the price of your animal.i have a hard time with the statement that if the care cost more that the animal it self,then youre going to do nothing.you should not have bought a reptile if you were not able to care for it and provide a vet if the animal becomes sick.instead of waiting for some self proclaimed reptile expert to return to his minimum wage job,you should have consulted a trained professional right from the start!!!!.im sorry for being harsh but when doing research on chameleons in captivity,i dont think there is a site or book out there that doesnt warn that chameleons are by far one of the most delicate species and require the most detailed husbantry around.they are not for beginners period!when deciding to raise one,you have to take into account that the animal may become sick and if you have no means of providing the proper care,then you should have never bought the animal.

As much as your little lecture is appreciated, it does not change my viewpoint. I will just quote what I said in the the Health, Diet & Breeding Forum, for kicks:

"It's actually my father's animal and we are obviously doing what we can to care for it. But the fact of the matter is that it's not a human. One might pay hundreds or thousands to care for a human or even a more "sentient" creature like a dog, cat, or bird. But I'm sorry, I just don't see lizards quite on the same totem pole. We obviously don't want him to die but at the same time, death happens and it's not the end of the world. We are doing what we can to make sure he doesn't suffer. But we just don't have hundreds of dollars lying around and we're not going to skip out on paying bills to save this guy's life. Take that for what you will."

Sure, it was a spur of the moment purchase at a reptile expo. That's happens to people all the time and you know it as well as I do. I'm not defending it at all. I think it's better to plan purchases but that is not what happened in this case. My dad has 2 books about chameleons and we have internet access. I helped him set up the cage and mist the chameleon whenever I come through the house (I don't live at home anymore). Perhaps my dad wasn't ready for a chameleon. Or maybe everything will be fine this time and we will have learned from the situation. Regardless, it is OUR chameleon. We have not been abusing it or neglecting to give it basic care. But, like I said, a vet just isn't in the cards.

And please save future lectures for someone else. I've heard this one before (directed at others) and I don't need it repeated. If you do not have advice on direct care, then please don't reply. We want to care for the chameleon, not hear about what horrible people you think we are. Thanks.

-Kelly

In view of your opinion, and in view of the care in which you want to invest, may I suggest that in the future, if you wish an exotic "cheap" animal, that you purchase a full color photograph, or reproduction as then you could appreciate it and it takes minimal care. Regardless of the level of sensience, they feel pain, they are inquisitive, and once in our care whether $1.00 or $1000 become are responsibility. Not everyone can afford vet care for these animals, and many feel feel as you do...these people therefor do not and should not own reptiles..but appreciate them from afar. Sadly, it is attitudes like this that cheapens the lives of these reptiles (if one dies get another).

I do not mean this as a lecture...but maybe you should rethink owning a "cheap" reptile, and just appreciate them via pictures or at your local zoo.

I understand and agree that that people should not abuse, neglect, or otherwise improperly care for animals of any kind. Regardless of what "should" have been done, this is the situation we are in now. Everyone, at some point, in this hobby was a first-time-chameleon-owner and everyone, at some point, was not an expert on chameleon care. This is the first chameleon my dad has owned and he's doing the best he can. He is working hard to bring it back to health and it appears to be doing some good, thanks to the constructive and positive advice of people on various boards in which I've posted. If we didn't care then we would be doing nothing, which is not at all the case. If I wanted to have a discussion on problems within the herp hobby itself, I would've started a thread about that topic. But thank you to the people who have been truly helpful.

The chameleon was actually purchased at Reptile Expo, not a pet shop. Vendors are probably far more eager to make a quick sale and thus perhaps the not-completely-truthful information was passed on regarding the heartiness of this species. Maybe they should've further explained "hearty" further... that it's hearty compared to some other chameleon species, not hearty compared to other pets in general. Maybe this, maybe that, it's all hypothetical. My dad has the chameleon now and it is sick. We'd rather deal with the situation at hand and prevent future illness rather than talk about what should/would/could have been done better.

I assume you mean the brand of the strip light's bulb (which I do not know) but it is a UVB/UVA bulb. The heat lamp does contain a house bulb. What kind of symptoms could result from improper lighting, for example, if our bulb is not up to par?

The humidity level stays between 60 and 65 with a slight increase during misting. I had read that 50-70% was the optimal humidity level for this species. In order to increase the humidity level, what do you suggest? Covering one side of the screen? My dad has mentioned the possibility of getting on of those little waterfalls to keep continual moving water. We are also looking into setting up a better dripping water system as apparently the misting has not been sufficient.

I can pass on to my dad that he should get 2 temperature gauges so we can keep one on the warm side and one on the cooler side to get an idea of where the temps typically lie. I would guess that the cage does maintain about 70 in the cool area, 90 in the warm area. Nighttime temps should be about room temperature... 60 sounds about right.

When you say dusting, you mean dusting the crickets, right? And I was confused earlier because I thought you meant gutloading the chameleon and I was confused by that. My dad dusts and gutloads his own crickets. He has been using the pet shop gutload but I will pass on the information you've shared about the best foods to feed them. We cannot control what they eat beforehand though, of course. I had not heard the information you've shared about the dusting schedule. That's very helpful. Thank you for all the information and websites. My dad is not ready to give up on him but if the chameleon does not get better soon, he might consider your last suggestion. In the end, it is my dad's decision, not mine. I can only share the information I've found out.

Thanks SO much for the in depth advice. Wish we'd been better informed before the chameleon became ill... but we're moving in the right direction now. Cross your fingers!

-Kelly

P.S. The chameleon's name is Waldo, for anyone who cares.

Put aside the lecture for now. We get angry when we hear about animals sold to customers who don't have experience with chams, and who trust the very poor advice from the shop..and then their animal suffers and dies. THAT is what makes us angry and we hear it too often. On top of that, someone keeping an animal that they don't seem very dedicated about caring for properly also irritates us. The price of the cham shouldn't mean anything. It's still alive and deserves a decent life.

Without knowing the humidity levels specifically, the temps specifically, the BRAND of strip light, you can't possibly know very much about what is wrong with this cham. It's cage humidity should be 60% at the lowest, with peaks up to 80% after spraying. Temps should be moderate, 90's at the basking perch, mid 70's in the cooler parts of the cage during the day. The strip light is supposed to provide UVB and UVA however most lights from pet shops don't produce much if any UV despite claims on the box. The ReptiSun 5.0 is a reliable, safe, and good quality UV light. The basking light can be a regular house light bulb. At night, no lights at all, and the cage should cool off to the upper 60's. Most books pet shops carry about chams are terribly out of date and inaccurate. Chances are (based on the poor care info you got from the lizard guy) your books are not helping you much. There are excellent websites about chams. I'll put some at the end of the message. The fact that it cost you $25 means it was an imported wildcaught animal who has been through hell. It is suffering from prolonged dehydration and stress and was probably sick before you got it. It probably is loaded with intestinal parasites too. If it is close to being an adult you should NOT be dusting with anything every day. Mineral dust once a week and vitamin (remember, you will need 2 separate types of dust) dust about once every 6 weeks at most. It takes a cham several weeks to start showing all the accumulated stress from poor care. They hide their problems until they are simply too weak to keep up the act. Often they are so miserable they just shut down as you are seeing. Gutload means what you feed your prey insects, and it is important. Don't use the pet shop cricket foods...they are terrible. At the minimum you should be feeding your crickets fresh dark leafy greens, fruit chunks, fortified cereal grains such as Total or regular (not microwave) oatmeal. Chances are there is nothing wrong with its eyes, shutting eyes is a sign of general misery. When chams are sick they often sit with eyes shut. If you are not going to take this cham to a qualified vet you might as well take it to a local vet and have it put to sleep. To let it linger on would be considered neglect and abuse.

Here are the good websites I meant to attach:

http://www.chameleonnews.com
http://www.adcham.com
http://www.calumma.com
http://www.chameleonjournals.com

Chances are the species you have is Bradypodion fischeri multituberculatum.

To aid in the cham's hydration, get a large plant, fake or real, put the cham on it and put the whole thing in the shower. Make sure the water is lukewarm before you put him in, and be certain not to use any other water in the house. If your showerhead has settings, try to use one as close to a mist as you can. If not, make sure the water pressure is not too high. He will hate it at first, for sure, but depending on how healthy he still is, he should eventually settle down and get a good drink and have a chance to clean out his eyes. Leave him in there for 20mins-30 mins. I do this with my veiled once a week and will be doing it with my jackson's every other day. They seem to really benefit from it.

If your cham is too far along in his illness, this wont save him, but it is certainly worth a try. It's the best way to help keep chams properly hydrated, in my opinion. Good Luck