Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i am in the military, and have been in the military for ten years. my dad, grandpa, and his grandpa were in the military, my uncle was in the military hell even my sister did a stint in the military, and we have all been to foriegn wars, conflicts, bombing campains whatever you want to call them. i am going back over to that sh*t hole place called iraq, to help people who do not want our help. why do i do it you ask, it is because i support the president, good bad or indifferent i do. i may not agree with him, but i do stand behind him. well i just want to remind everyone when they get caught up in all this bickering about how bad of a man he is, dont forget our troops.
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The next time the shuttle lands, lets all get dressed up in ape suits and charge at the astronaughts yelling and ranting. That way they can try to figure out where they took a wrong turn.

Well, Iraq is not a sh*t hole as you put it. It's a beautiful country with a fantastic history (which thanks to the inadequate actions of the US and UK troops / leadership has largely disappeared into the hands of looters). Iraq has some incredible biodiversity which has not even been given a thought. It's people are also beautiful, and should be treated as people. With respect. Why don't they want you there???? Are you for real? They DON'T want you there, simple as that. They want true freedom. They want to dictate how to use their oil. They don't want to be led by people who don't understand their culture. Is that hard to understand?

Please, step back here! The man's going over to do his job. And sorry, Iraq is a crappy place--it was bombed to the stone age during the 1st Gulf and sanctions have prevented massive rebuilding. Saddam destroyed the wetlands and ecology of the place, and butchered the people.
The art and history museams there are actually largely fine; they were looted yes, but the looters only carried off a handfull (some dozens) of pieces; not the whole collection. The impression that the whole place was carried off was based on a mis-quote of a newsie that saw it happen. The Economist ran a nice article on that some months back.

Frankly, I think that Saddam did pose a real threat to US interest, and that we needed to remove him from power. He's been shooting at US/UK planes for YEARS while they were trying to enforce the no-fly zone, he's massacred his people, and invalidated the treaty that ended Persian Gulf I by his constant violations. While I'm completly disgusted at how the peace keeping is being handled, I feel the utmost sympathy for the soldiers over there (hell, friend of mine is 3rd ID).
While there is plenty to gripe about, the fact is the war was justified the FIRST time Saddamn shot at us whilst we were attempting to enforce the no-flys. That'd mean that war against Saddam has been on good legal ground for what, a decade? I disagree with Bush on almost every domestic policy, and if the Dems offer a serious contender, I'll vote for them--but on this, I back him (although not how it was justified--I think he made a massive mistake there).

Paul

Really, the thought we ought to tailor our operations so that they don't interefere with thier cultural ideas is pure unadulturated CRAP. We search the houses with dogs, yes; they can smell out bombs, drugs, hiding people, etc. better than any clean (according to the Qu'ran) animal can. Pigs would be better, perhaps, few animals have a better nose, but dear heavens, talk about an affront to Islamic culture.

Attack them during Ramadan? Why the devil not. Arabic Muslim countries attacked Isreal during Yum Kippur, and they've shown no reluctance to fight amongst themselves on thier holy days!
Should we continue to deny women basic human rights because it's against their culture? Should we go ahead and allow them to kill apostates, because it is in accordance with thier cultural norms? I imagine you'd be aghast at those (and for the record, I am). So why are you so offended that we violate thier cultural ideas for the sake of our soldiers?
While I like the idea of respecting the local culture where feasible/appropriate, I categorically reject the idea we should endanger our men and women to respect another cultures code of conduct (and I am certain that damn near everyone here would feel them same too).

Paul

Don't be surprised then when more and more US troops get killed. It IS unacceptable behaviour. Surely "superior" nations such as yours should set examples.

If your child was to come home and tell you he was being bullied, what would your reaction be? Act the same as the bully? Or rise above him, set an example?

Yes, unfortunately, more US troops will get killed. You are obviousl happy about that, I'm sad. However, Bush is going to rightfully finish what he rightfully started and the establishment of a new Iraqi government will not be a smooth operation. That doesn't mean that we give up. Should we (the US) eliminate our police force at home, because some cops die in the act of enforcing our laws? Most important, Bush isn't about to walk away from Iraq if there's even the slightest threat to the US. Remember, that's why we are there in the first place. The welfare of the Iraqi people was never our primary objective, although it's nice to see that they are now free. The part that you can't seem to grasp is that the US has the right not to take $hit from YOU and your lowly third world country, or anybody else. Thousands of our own were murdered on 9/11 and we (the US) reacted. WE CERTAINLY DON'T NEED YOUR APPROVAL TO REMOVE THE THREAT!

scalawag

Yes, unfortunately, more US troops will get killed. You are obviousl happy about that, I'm sad. = You have clearly not listened to a SINGLE word I have said. One death is to many in my eyes.

The welfare of the Iraqi people was never our primary objective = Yes, the world had a feeling about that one. I'm glad you are honest enough to admit it. Actually, the Iraqi people should be the PRIMARY objective, they are not players in a game of chess that can simply be taken at will.

The part that you can't seem to grasp is that the US has the right not to take $hit from YOU and your lowly third world country, or anybody else. = Actually, I don't live in a third wolrd country. Far from it. I'd also like to mention that being a third world country doesn't make it lowly. It is this snobbish attitude and opinion that the Iraqi's are nothing and can be treat like sh*t that has got us where we are now.

Thousands of our own were murdered on 9/11 and we (the US) reacted. WE CERTAINLY DON'T NEED YOUR APPROVAL TO REMOVE THE THREAT! = The last anyone looked the Iraqi's had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing. No links, nothing. So don't tell me that was the objective.

Get a grip, and an education

"one death is too mant in my eyes" - Really? Where were you when Saddam was killing his own people. Nowhere!

"the Iraqi people should be the PRIMARY objective" - WRONG! Removing Saddam, his army, and any Iraqi people that think and act like Saddam, you know the one's we call "terrorists", were the PRIMARY objective. Not all Iraqi people are peaceful. They have a bad habit of breeding terrorists, or haven't you noticed?Far less casualties involving innocent Iraqi people ocurred as a result of US troops than under the reign of Saddam. It's unfortunate but necessary if the problem of terrorism is to be solved. Bush is the problem solver and you are the guy who seems to want to keep terrorism around forever.

"snobbish attitude"? - speak for yourself pompous, English, windbag. That's (a snobbish attitude)what got the victims of 9/11 where they are now? You get creepier by the post.

As far as the connection between Iraq and 9/11 goes, please keep your head buried in the sand. It's amusing to watch you make a fool of yourself!

scalawag

Would you just like to discuss the connection between Iraq and 9/11 for all the world to see. Because NOBODY else has found one!

Ok twit, here's the connection ONCE AGAIN! Iraq was led by one of the world's most high-profile terrorists. Get it? 9/11 was perpetrated by one of the world's most high-profile terrorists. Get it? Bush declared war on terrorists as a result of 9/11. Get it? Many terrorists have been targeted by Bush, including Saddam. Get it? 9/11 changed the attitude of the US toward terrorism. Get it? We became pro-active as opposed to waiting for the next act of terrorism. Get it? Bush went after USB, he went after Saddam, and he's isn't done yet. Get it? Because of what Bush is doing about terrorism, even sniveling little louts like yourself live in a better place. Get it?

Now what part of the connection don't you get?

scalawag

So...what's your point? Who cares? Did you cheer every time Saddam tortured and slaughtered his own people as well as others?

Who needs one? I don't need a connection. I wish there were video tapes of those people(Iraqis) being tortured and slaughtered. Then someone could tie you up, tape your eyes open and force you to watch the bloodshed at the hands of your buddy, Saddam. Then maybe you would stop your whining about every little trivial, ridiculous, delusional, paranoid, speculative angle and center on the real issue. We did right by the Iraqis. You're just jealous because you sat on your crack and did nothing while we took the initiative to help a people. That makes us people persons.

I'd teach him Karate and tell him to beat the living crap out of that bully!

You actually think that if we didn't question women, search with dogs, etc. that the uprisings would stop? If I recall correctly, most of the attacks are being staged by remnants of the Feyadeen (misspelled, I'm sure). They wouldn't care if the whole bloody US converted to thier religion and followed thier norms; they'd still attack us. So why not use effective means to try to prevent it? I'd favor complete martial law at this point, if it would help.
BTW, about the bullies; after a long history dealing with them, I learned that speaking thier language is a remarkably effective tool. Only one I ever found that worked, if you want to know the truth.

Paul

While I agree with what you Paul,Terdball, Scalawag, CoryB...etc...have said, it is like beating a dead horse trying to have an Open Discussion with Progressive/Socialist/Democrats (PSD)....and I do believe that there are still some of the old fashioned Democrats in American society,though none of them hold political office. The Progressives, whether American or European all spew the same liberal rhetoric. There is no need for name calling, just because people have different viewpoints. Yes, maybe I think you, the PSD's are mislead and are misleading but I understand that you too have an opinion. Funny, what you, the PSD, think is food for thought, many see as PSD propaganda. By Herpconsultants2 posting such rhetoric, they were trying to agitate fellow forum members that are fed up with the left-wing propaganda. When reading such propaganda, one must consider the source, and as such not let it get a rise in you for that is exactly what their objective was. But I must say, I am very pleased to see my fellow forum members speak out and stand up for their country, their President and their fellow Americans.

thanks.....

Good post Gail. Herpesconsultant2 started this whole thread, and Stoeckl chimed in, for on reason only: to insult Americans. I'd think differently if either one of them had come up with any solutions of their own to how Bush has handled 9/11. I'd think different if either one of them had the courage to agree with some of the many obvious reasons offered them for why Bush's response was justified. It's obvious that no amount of reasonable explanation will get though to these anti-Americans. They are here to criticize with closed minds, and for that I have no problem with some name-calling. After all, if you can dish it out you should be prepared to take it.

scalawag

A crappy place? Oh come on. It might look crappy to you, but to a biologist it doen't. Yes the US and UK armies have done their best to destroy this diversity, but there is still alot to see. What looks like a barren desert to you is a haven for the animals we are here to talk about. Our world isn't for humans to abuse and bomb the crap out of. If the environment was given some more consideration maybe this whole thing could have been avoided.

Did you see the extent of the no-fly zone. Please. And it is worth mentioning that the ONLY people to recognize that zone were the US and UK. The ONLY ones. So no, there is NO legal ground. Remember that. No-one is saying Saddam is a good man. But I don't see how killing in different guises is any any way proper. That's just my opinion. The sheer amout of ruined families out there appalls me. Maybe you think it is justified? I don't.

Contrary to what the media may lead you to believe a considerable amout of artifacts have been looted since the conflict began. This is bantered around as an acceptable level. And you have obviously bought that. Good for you. If snakes were on the table of extinction, and only Bcc's disappeared, would that be OK? The Fact is that insufficient protection was given when everybody was aware what was going on. And I'm not just talking about museums. Homes and businesses were looted until nothing remained. Livelihoods ruined forever.

And finally, I have to mention Bush. Now there are some intelligent people here. But I am sorry, but never have I seen such a bungling fool on a political stage in all of my life. That man IS a lunatic! NOTHING would have stopped that war, nothing.

It must be nice to live in FANTASYLAND!

scalawag

I'm no biologist, but I do recall what Saddam did to the ecology: he allowed oil wells to fall to pieces (massive pollution) he set the same wells on fire (again, massive pollution), he destroyed the major wetlands to divert water away from opposing tribes in the south, etc. He wrecked a large part of the native ecology there. We really didn't do much to it. Our unexploded ordinance isn't wiping out the local landscapes. This isn't Cambodia.

As for the only ones recognizing the no fly zone; oh well. We fought him when he invaded Kuwait and threatend our oil supply. We drew up a treaty, specifying the he could not fly between certain lines. The treaty is actually valid; he violated it repeatedly and reaped the consequences. Tough for him. I feel bad about the soldiers dead on the battlefield, for both sides. But, in the end, it was probably quicker, and with a lower cost in human life, than allowing him another decade, and his sons another several.

Paul

Well said.

They want true freedom? You mean like the "true freedom" they had under Saddam's rule, lol, where they get tortured and slaugthtered for not thinking exactly the way Saddam tells them to. Ive got news for ya' pal. WE gave them they're freedom!

They are free now? Ask an Iraqi that question.

The whole world bows in your greatness! I think not! One day you're gonna get a rude awakaning, and I hope someone comes into power to avoid this!

We are(Bush) protecting ourselves from terrorists. Your interpretation is that we (the US) think we are so great. 3,000 of our people were murdered and you think that it is ARROGANT for us to attempt to eliminate the problem (terrorism). I'd love to see the relatives of the 9/11 victims have their way with you. But you are so cowardly you can't even reveal what country you are from. Do you understand that because you have no compassion for the victims of 9/11, you have no credibility to act like you are concerned about the Iraqi people? Of course you don't.

scalawag

Actually, I have no reason to hide where I am from. I am from England. And in fact, numerous families of 9/11 victims went on air staiting categorically that they didn't want more violence. That is my ONLY point. Don't fight violence with violence. Because, it doesn't get rid of it, it breeds it. Again, I'll draw the parallel with Palestine.

I fear it is you that live in a fantasy land. The majority of the world protested to the Iraq war, including the majority of the UK. It was clear that the evidence being presented was doctored and that people were being misled. If your news channels fail to show you the anti-war movement worldwide, then go on the net.

You see it has nothing to do with us hating the US. Nothing at all. Some of us simply don't agree with war. Especially when there is clearly no need for it. I doubt if you have seen the recent statements by Dr. Hans Blix regarding the so called 'evidence' for war? It was simply unjustified. Again, just because people disagree with you, doesn't mean they hate your country. You get that in your tiny skull? It simply means they disagree with you. The UK look like we agree, but we don't. We might as well have a dictatorship here because there certainly is no democracy left.

Please, I am no extremist here. I am NOT alone. I am part of the majority. Does that not tel you something??? Stop the violence. Treat people as equals. Treat them like you expect to be treated. And then, if there is still terrorist attacks, then I would agree, things aren't right. But ask yourself, why would a country and it's people that are being treated fairly, want to kill a single American????????

You have the totally wrong end of the stick my friend!

"We might as well have a dictatorship here because there certainly is no democracy left." Being from England, you have good reason to hide. At least you have a good dictator. The poor guy has to battle with fools like you to do the right thing. The US was formed to get the hell away from England and all of it's pomposity. You have some nerve commenting on the arrogance of the US.

As far as the people of the USA being MISLED by the evil empire of George Bush, please don't worry about us. We, no doubt, saw the protesters and were disgusted by them. Can you comprehend that Bush's approval rating was 80% ? Probably not, as you seem to filter out anything that doesn't jive with your socialistic point of view.

You've already stated, quite clearly, how the world hates the US. Can you get it through your tiny skull that you are in no position now to act like you "simply don't agree with war". Face it YOU HATE US, and that's why you have no credibility. You resent the US because our system works better than yours. It's called envy.

"Treat people as equals"? That's the principal that this country is based on. This country was formed because England had a problem when it came to treating people equally. You are one mixed up individual.

scalawag

English? That explains ALOT! Do you hold your little pinky out when you sip your tea, cupcake.

It just goes to show that this poor guy really has no concern whatsoever about the Iraqi people. Typical of someone who has an innate, blind hatred for the US.

scalawag

If we (the US) wanted Iraq's oil WE WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT IN 1990, simply BECAUSE WE CAN. But that's really not the case, is it Mr. Brainwashed? Have you forgotten the happy, smily Iraqi faces when our military eliminated the real creep that brutalized those poor people? A pea brain like you found a way to twist it all around in your convoluted head to think that the US was and is the culprit all along. Now stop your blathering child, as it only makes you look incredibly small.

scalawag

If we (the US) wanted Iraq's oil WE WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT IN 1990, simply BECAUSE WE CAN - Excuse me??????????????????????? Are you crazy? No, you cannot. THAT is exactly the attitude that has brought about all the hatred. No, it is not there for you to take. And I tell you what, if you had, it'd have been 9/11/90!!!! Get real! Brainwashed, me?

Here's where you really need to grow up. Iraq invaded Kuwait and took their oil and you haven't expressed one negative sentiment about that. We DID NOT invade Kuwait and take their oil, although we certainly have the military strength to do so. The fact that you, and the rest of the world as you say, hate us soley based on having that capacity demonstrates your blind ignorance perfectly. YOU HATE US BASED ON WHAT WE COULD DO, NOT WHAT WE ACTUALLY DO. Again, here's where you really need to grow up!

scalawag

I do not hate the US. Far from it. I simply disagree with erecent actions by its government. I don't have to agree, you see?

Countries have invaded others throughout history. The US is no stranger to invading other countries, so please, don't go down that road. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but there are double standards!

Iraq was a country that was run by an evil dictator, therefore Iraq was a bad dangerous place. UBL was an evil and envious creep who bounced back and forth amongst many Middle-Eastern countries, thereby making those countries dangerous places. Terrorists today have to think good and hard to decide whether it's worth it for them to terrorize anyone in the world. The violence that the coalition forces have inflicted on terrorists IS THE REASON WHY terrorists have to think good and hard. Bush absolutely did the right thing.

It's sickening to see how you, after all the blathering, don't have the decency to acknowlege obvious facts such as the following:

- no country has done more good for the Iraqi people that the US

- the terrorists are the bad guys, not the US

- we didn't "invade" Iraq, we removed a terrorist, and liberated Iraq's people in the process (what Iraq did to Kuwait is called invasion)

- the best defense to terrorism is a good offense

- Bush's motive had nothing to do with stealing Iraq's oil

But you are the guy that believes the US had 9/11 coming because of our perceived arrogant attitude. So why wouldn't I be sickened by everything out of your sorry socialistic mouth?

scalawag

It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that our country made it that "sh*t hole", destroyed one of the greatest historical and cultural lands of human history, starved it's people (or put a dictator in charge who starved his own people, however you want to see it), killed it’s families, and now, finally has destroyed it's pride, the country's last resource.

So you complain and whine that because of your supposed patriotism you will respect your commander in chief even if it means having to help people who now hate your guts for what you did to them. Oh, boo hoo, I'm sure you'd rather be bombing some village somewhere that you were told was filled with "bad guys". Oh how terrible that you should have to actually help clean up a mess that your party created. Oh the inconvenience of having to deal with those whose families you killed. Oh the burden of taking some resemblance of responsibility for your country.

You, my good sir, are the epitome of America's lapse of conscience. You are the bottom of a barrel long since scrapped bare.

No doubt, you are a terrorist. Did you enjoy 9/11? Please go crawl back under your rock!

scalawag

Does t

Does labeling things you don't like with the latest trend accusation make life easier for you. 20 years ago you'd be calling me a communist. Before that the word Nazi would fly out of your mouth before you even took a second breath. Hell, go back a half a millennia and I'm sure I'd be consorting with the devil as an obvious Witch for such views.

Grow-up man.

If you are not against terrorism (if you criticize those actively working to eliminate it), then you are for it. I didn't call you a Nazi or a Communist. But you certainly are a jackass!

scalawag

Does labeling things you don't like with the latest trend accusation make life easier for you. 20 years ago you'd be calling me a communist. Before that the word Nazi would fly out of your mouth before you even took a second breath. Hell, go back a half a millennia and I'm sure I'd be consorting with the devil as an obvious Witch for such views.

Grow-up man.

Who's mess is it really? Saddam had a choice. He knew what the repercussions would be if he didn't comply.HE CHOSE to put his(?) country in harms way. Not like that was any suprise. He never gave a crap about anyone but himself, his money and his power.

Well since we helped Saddam into power that would still be our mess.

So it is your opinion that we supported Saddams decision to terrorize(torture and slaughter) his own people and invade other countries?That is some seriously warped thinking.

We may have helped Saddam into power, but that didn't stop Bush from correcting the problem, did it?

scalawag

talk about me like that! what country are you from? have you ever done something you did not want to. have you ever been to iraq, saudi arabia, afghanistan? yes they are sh*t holes. i challenge you to go live in a tent in the middle of the desert with a 140 degree temp, with bare minumum essentials, do your laundry in a water bucket, eat one hot meal a day and the rest come out of bags, then have to worry about people shooting at you for helping them rid there country of baath party officials, and other saddam loving a-holes. to you my "friend" you can f*ck off. it is people like you that give americans a bad name.

i am not saying this si right or worng i simply said remember the troops, but yiou obviously dont care. join the air force, it is the easiest branch, do 6 years in and then come and talk to me.
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The next time the shuttle lands, lets all get dressed up in ape suits and charge at the astronaughts yelling and ranting. That way they can try to figure out where they took a wrong turn.