Reptile & Amphibian Forums

With all the "goini" x brooksi offspring I'm seeing produced on these forums today, I'm really quite surprised I'm not seeing anyone actually breeding Apalachicola Kings together. All that variation from patternless to striped to blotched specimens and all I've seen on here is brooksi being bred with them. Seems like all the "goini" people are using are the typical blotched forms as well. Anyone out there even breeding Apalachicola Kings and trying to produce patternless/striped forms?

Here's a very nice patternless phase from Hillson's site.

(Photo by Bill Love. Used from Keith Hillson's website.

And another:

)Photo by Kevin Enge. Used from Hillson's site)

They are my favorite, from a looks standpoint, and those are top notch examples. Very hard to find tough, aren't they?
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Tim

They are hard to find. Funny thing is, there was a reptile expo here in Tally a couple of years ago and a friend of mine picked up 2 pairs of nearly patternless adults from an unknown breeder. I'm still waiting for him to breed those things as I'd like to see what they produce.

I'm going to send you an email from your above post. It's not related to this topic, but is a question I have on something else. Hope you don't mind.
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Tim

I definitely am a huge fan of the patternless Appalachicola Kings. They're beautiful snakes, not sure about their feeding habits or temperament though, due to the fact that almost nobody talks about them on this site. But yeah, I definitely am wanting to buy one if I can ever find one, of course that could be said for a lot of other snakes too though lol.

Those animals are gorgeous. I'm not sure if I prefer the striped to the other types of Apalachicola Kings. I actually find some of the naturally occurring intergrades to be just as beautiful. (That Leon County animal from Kevin Enge on pg 2 is really awesome IMO).

Apalachicola Kings are kind of like alterna to me. I pay almost no attention to either one when I see them in deli cups at a reptile show but I love looking for both of them in the wild and I'm very interested in seeing WC locality animals. I don't really care about locality that much when it comes to most exotics but for some reason I do when it's an animal from an area I've actually field herped at.
Another example would be red milks. After finding them in SW Kentucky, I don't think I would be satisfied keeping generic syspila. I never really cared about locality copperheads until I found my first few in the field and saw firsthand some of the subtle variation in color and pattern from different areas of their range.
Chris

Those animals are gorgeous. I'm not sure if I prefer the striped to the other types of Apalachicola Kings. I actually find some of the naturally occurring intergrades to be just as beautiful. (That Leon County animal from Kevin Enge on pg 2 is really awesome IMO).

I definitely agree with you you on the intergrades Chris. Actually, some I find to be more attractive than the typical lightened, blotched forms. And I assume you're referring to this pic from Kevin Enge?

That animal is definitely one of the prettiest I've seen from the area. In fact, that snake was found just south of where I found my female last week maybe within 5 miles. It's going to be interesting next year to see what that pair I have produces as I expect some to have wide bands and some to lighten up also. Wouldn't mind seeing something like Kevin's animal pop out!

That's the one.

Did the goini ever drop eggs this year? She sure seemed gravid to me when I saw her in June but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
Chris

She never laid any eggs Chris. I thought she looked gravid too but I guess Pierson's been feeding her well. Next year we're going to put the original pair together since they're proven breeders. They're both getting up their in age though as both were found as juveniles in 92. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it but we'll see.

I completely agree. Once the quest is on and you are in the habitat it all takes on a different meaning. Here's a look at another of thoses western KY reds. I might have to start working with these myself. Phil

Beautiful animal, Phil. My thayeri looks very similar, but not as red!
Todd Hughes

Great looking snake Todd. I always have liked those. One of those interesting snakes that doesn't seem to get enough attention in the snake keeping world. Phil

Well brother, we're gonna change that a little bit! LOL!
Todd Hughes

That's a nice one! I think Sean and I were both a bit tempted to keep that nice Calloway County syspila we found with Dwight but I need more breeding projects like a hole in the head right now
I had always admired the beauty of red milks but when I saw them in the field it definitely elevated the interest even more for me. (Plus that particular spot in Calloway County was one of the best times I've ever had herping).
Chris

That is a neat place Chris. Did you guys see any cottons in the rocks?

I know what you mean about projects. I have been tempted with getting something going with the reds for a few years now. I may yet just for the fun of it. Phil

At that location we saw 2 milks, 2 cottonmouths, a midland water snake and even a black rat crawling down one of the rocks.

If that wasn't enough, the scarlet snake was found on the road as we were leaving that location.

That was definitely a lot of fun!
Chris

I only got two good eggs so I have not been bragging but here you go. I hope it makes you feel better. This is a female from a striped pair. The pair had opposite stripes though. I was hopeing for patternless but I got half striped instead. Here are the two males I used as well
Later Jason

Only two eggs huh? How many eggs did you get total? Either way, it's nice to see someone else breeding these.

Hey Jason... i'm breeding that male to me Blotched/chain pattern female next season... i think i'll get a really interesting clutch...

btw: that male "mystery" hasn't ate as yet... the female has... he still has his umbilical cord attached... it's dry but still attached... i find it weird since he hatched out first... and the female's cord is detached... any suggestions?

~ZF

I hope your female accepts him next year. Post a pic of her again. As far as the baby I never notice the cord at all which is kinda sad. He ate the first time right away on a frozen thawed. I just put it in his drawer. So no, no suggestion as far as what worked. If he doesn't feed at the next feeding let me know.
Later Jason

Ok... the cord is dried up, but still there... i left him with a pink over night and he didn't take it...

Hers's the female Goini

~ZF

Yep, those are nice animals.
But I think that there is a misconception that the patternless and striped (what BM and Art Meyer used to call 'lineated')morphs were ever readily available. I think they were always extremely rare.
Bill Love and Dick Bartlett had that friendly competition to get a patternless hatchling from Art who was breeding Bruce's animals around 1985. I remember being at Art's house in Tally with the Love's and Dick the morning Art was going to sell the very first patternless hatchlings. Prior to those, I think that there had only been a couple of W/C males that had been found and NO FEMALES. There had also been only a handful of the striped forms found (all of these were collected from that small area in the Apalach) as best as I can remember.
But Bill Love and Dick were the only breeders back then that ever really had any of those kings. I guess a few more became available but I don't think there was ever that many.

Also, that king of Keven Enge's is sure nice.

Carl, Bruce Means once told me if you breed patternless to patternless, you'll get all patternless offspring. Know of anyone that has ever done this? Seems like if that was the case, there would be alot more patternless offspring being produced...that is if breeders were pairing up true patternless adults.

That would be true.
But again, I think that the patternless females were really rare and only captive hatched ones were known. I could be wrong though.
Dick B. or Bill Love needs to answer that one.

That is interesting because I heard it was the same way with the Davis, CA melanistic blackbelly kings. They come in striped/abberrant melanistic and banded/abberrant melanistic phases and there were never any wild striped/abberrant melanistic females found but they turned up in captive lines.

.... I had some for a while and when I couldn't GIVE away ($5.-$15.ea)the babies at Daytona a few years back, I decided to part with them.
Both were hogs. The female typically laid 18-20 eggs in her first clutch and maybe 12-15 in her 2nd. Pretty sure the male is still alive in Canada but the female I was told has passed on.
The female was one of the most "patternless" I have seen (for a female "goini" but the male looked very much as the ones above maybe with that hint of stripe down his back.
I do wish I had kept them for myself now!
The babies were awesome and I'd say I got every look you could imagine with that pair--even though they had no pattern themselves to speak of.
I also regret not getting many pics of them and their offspring. Some were golden, some silvery, and some had both. The "blotched" babies showed some of the looks like the ones posted below, with that "block like saddle" pattern and some had very pinkish tones as well. No two it seemed looked alike.
I haven't seen any lately that had what some of mine had---the "oval" (and sometimes spots)blotches.. Have you??
On my picture album page, I think there may be 2 or 3 babies from a few years ago at the bottom of the 1st Kingsnake page.
www.crimsonking.funtigo.com
They are lousy pics as I remember. Scanned instamatic type pics.
Anyway, I think Len's will produce babies much like the ones I had. I guess I'll have to track down the real McCoys again, huh?
Anyone out there have some I gave you or sold for cheap????
Buddy Grout-- do you still have the problem feeder?? I think he was golden/silver and stripey??
:Mark

Those are some awsome snakes for sure! As for looks I like a good looking blotched specimen about as much as any of them but I will have to admit I am intrigued by the genetic history of the striped and patternless individuals. Very interesting group of snakes. Phil

Hey Phil, what's on the agenda? Is it hotter'n' hades up there? IT IS SMOKIN' HOT DOWN HERE!!! The kings must be 10' under the dunes in Corpus! LOL! Not much luck even at night. Keep up the good work and save me a good lookin' patterned nigra!!! Or at least shoot some more pics this way! I enjoy your posts immensely!
Todd Hughes

Yeah Todd its going to be 97F up here as a high all weekend. I have to work so I guess its all the same. I would suspect things would be slow to nonexistent in the field anyhow. Hopefully we'll get a break in the weather soon.

Thanks for the kind words. I know I enjoy your posts as well! Hopefully we'll get together one day in the field. If ever in KY you know you can look me up. Phil

Thanks Phil, I may get the chance sooner than I think, I believe my daughter's boyfriend is fixing to propose soon! Man, I can see it now, Where's Dad? He better NOT be snake hunting! LOL! Nah, I wouldn't do that!?!
Todd Hughes

My two female Appalachicola's will be bred next year if the male that I've been promised actually materializes! My female was bred in '03 and had 8 beautiful babies. I still have one, who is my other female who will perhaps be old/large enough to breed in the coming year.

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~Sasheena

That's an awesome scrunchie! LOL!
Todd Hughes

Thanks, that is one of my best pictures of her, it never seems to get old. She was actually gravid in this picture (I wasn't sure she was gravid) and she laid 8 eggs the very next day. She would ALWAYS crawl up into my hair when it was cage cleaning time, and since it's convenient to have her occupied on my head, I could easily clean the cage without another holding cage. she was never in danger of falling, I have to add. Sadly her mate died the next year, so she's gone two years now without breeding and is absolutely MASSIVE. I hope to get her a male and breed her and her three year old daughter this coming season.

>>That's an awesome scrunchie! LOL!
>> Todd Hughes
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~Sasheena