Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,
I was sold 2 garter snakes a little while ago. However, i believe that they are ribbon snakes. They are very slender, with smallish heads. They are very quick and one gave me a little nibble the other day when I held him. They have very defined stipes(yellow/white) along their backs and sides.They are black with a white venter. They also have the white mark in front of the eye which is supposed to seperate garters from ribbons. The breeder is 99.9% sure they are garters. I am 99.9% sure they are ribbons. Any help would be great. ^^

Your both right, a ribbon snake is a type of garter.

If the guy you got them from bred them, have him show you the parents. Adults may be easier to key out than juvies. True, the garter & ribbon are the same genus, but distinctly different species. If you are still in doubt, e-mail me or post up a picture.

~~Greg~~

Maybe I am just arguing symantics here, but asking if a snake is a ribbon snake or a garter is like asking if a drink is a budwieser or a beer. Yes Ribbons are a distinct species of garters, they are still garters just like budwieser is a beer.

Rick, to take off on your analogy, it is more like asking if a Budwiser is the smae thing as a Coors. They are both beers, bur if someone sold you a Bud and you got a Coors, would you consider it the same thing? Ribbons don't fall under garters, rather beside them under Thamnophis. Much like Yellow rats are beside Black rats under Pantherophis.

If that's true what do you call them as a group? both budwieser and coors are beers, then what are ribbons and garters? Every book I have ever read put them together as Garter snakes.

Ribbon snakes are among the familiar group known as gartersnakes~
as quoted from WI DNR for example:
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/factsheets/herps/Nribsn.htm
Link

Thamnophis, as a group, are usually refered to as Garter & Ribbon Snakes, much like Lampropeltis is refered to as Kingsnakes & Milk Snakes.

LOL! I don't think we are going to get anywhere with this, since I would also refer to a Milk Snake as a type of kingsnake.

Agkistrodon - Copperhead & Cottonmouth. If you were sold a snake as a Copperhead, but were sent a Cottonmouth, would you be upset then? Just as much difference between Garters and Ribbons; same genus, but different species. This is why scientific names are better than common names. LOL

Ribbons are in the same genus as garters, but they are not garters. Just like Sonora mountain kingsnakes are not Honduran milksnake, even though they share the same genus of Lampropeltis.

If you are arguing common names, than I guess copperheads and rat snakes are the same thing since I've seen one snake called both names.

Years ago, we used to call milksnakes, tri-colored kingsnakes, just as it was common to refer to ribbons as a type of garter.

Heres a photo of one of them here
http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dragontattooist/detail?.dir=75c2&.dnm=5f17.jpg&.src=ph
they both look exactly the same as this.

Link

Knowing where the snake is from will help. That said, there is nothing in the photo to give scale, so I cannot tell how slender the snake is. Here is the key for the eastern garter & ribbons. On the former, the bottom stripe is on scale rows 2 & 3. On the ribbon, it is on rows 3 & 4. Hope that helps.

~~Greg~~

I'd say it is a garter, not sure what ssp but I can see blackish blotches inbetween the top strip and lower stripe, most ribbons I've seen are just black, or brownish in that area.
wayne

All the pictures I have seen of ribbon snakes look the same as mine, well the pictures in "Floridas Snakes" by R.D.Bartlett and Patricia Bartlett.The eastern ribbon snake looks just like mine only a different colour.It says that a "light vertical markingis present in front of each large eye". I dont know if you can see on the picture or not but they do have a white mark in front of each eye whereas garter snakes do not. They are very slender snakes and i wish i had a picture to show some reference to size but they really are difficult to handle. I am so confused! Is there any deffinate solid factor that you can tell them appart by? otherwise, I give up! i guess it doesnt really matter at all.
I did find this picture, dont know if it will help but thats a 2 1/2 foot tank they are in at the moment,maybe that will help? Thanks for all the replies so far ^_^
Link

You have to look at where the stripe falls on the scales. The Butlers garter is very similiar in apperance to the Ribbon snake, and if what you have is not a ribbon then that is probably what it is. Check this discription of the butlers garter:
Link

It's not a ribbon snake. Ribbon snakes would be a lot thinner. It's more of a gestalt thing, but I'm positive you have a garter snake.