Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok... in a post below i discribed my animals as F1's and their offspring as F2's and i was told that wasn't correct and if i were to sell them as such i would be lying to the consumer... now i'd really like to know how should the be represented... i asked the individual (that said it was wrong) to explain but i got no response so i hope to get one from SOMEONE...

Now Rainer Bred his Sulphur lavender(het. axanthic) to a BHB axanthic line (surprisingly het lavender) and produced

lavender albinos
Axanthics
Snows
and a normal

i realize these morphs have been on the market for a long time but i've yet to see this pairing from any one besides Rainer... since this is a "first of a kind" (in my opinion... seeing as there is sulpur in the background)

What would i refer to the Parents and an what would i refer to their offspring?

2nd question: what does the "F" in F1,F2,F3 stand for and what does it mean

Thanx

~ZF

Pardon the ignorance, but what does "BHB" stand for?

If I were to take a guess at your question (which I'm almost sure of being wrong), I would think that just labeling them "First Gen., Second Gen., etc." would be suitable, but like I said, I'm a newby and I'm probably not right.

I believe The BHB is an abbreviation for the Owner's name (BHB enterpirises)...

I'm not 100% about the history but:
The BHB Axanthic line looks very different from the NE Strain... it was called(and still called by some) Anerythristic Brooks/ Anerythristic Florida Kinksnake

I'll attach a link to the old BHB Website...

~ZF
BHB Site

In my opinion F in F1, F2, F3...etc is just a generation marker, whether it is generations from the wild or generations from a certain cross.
Even when breeding a morph snake to a normal and produce normal looking hets I have heard of them even being referred to as F1s.
John Lassiter

Hey John, what's up? Are we down for this weekend? How's them deckled kings, LOL!?
Todd Hughes

NP

Well there is the rub. You cant bastardize another label to make another. You have to change it somehow or its too confusing. Now if its for your own personal use then thats fine but if you get on here and show me your f1 snow Cornsnake that would be nonsense it would probably be a f200 lol. I mean it would be dumb to have to say these are F1's ...but not from wild but from captive breds of unknown origin??? Kinda loses its ease of use eh ?

Keith
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and reptile people can not make established definitions their own. F1 in other sciences (i.e. botany) does not require that the parents be collected in the wild. Offspring from hybrids are F1. So why should it be different for snakes? If it is to protect the consumer, then is fine. But you referred to it bastardizing a label. Well one can’t misuse a label that has already been misused.

What are you argueing 2 wrongs make a right ?

Keith
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No, I'm saying you can't jump on someone for changing a definition when the definition you are using is not correct and their use of the word is more inline with the correct definition.

How about if it is missused but is generally accepted by the hobby?

>>No, I'm saying you can't jump on someone for changing a definition when the definition you are using is not correct and their use of the word is more inline with the correct definition.
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Filial: designating the generation or the sequence of generations following the parental generation.

In the case of hybrids (such as in plants) the first generation is F1. It does not matter when they were collected from the wild unless they are wild type. Once crossed, they are a new gentic composition (in theory) and thus F1. Future generations from the offspring are thus F2, F3....etc.

Thank you very much.. i wish others on this forum could just answer the direct questions without the x-tra bla bla bla.

again thank you

~ZF

Thank You!!!!
Just as I stated above...
F1, F2, F3....etc. can be used for numerous purposes.
Not just wild collected offspring!
John Lassiter

F=founders
F1=first generation
F2=second generation, etc, etc,

The problem is the F and the context. The founders can be someone elses animals and you start with F3 and go from there, or in your own context, you can call them your founders and start from there.

The real problem is, taking a F3 female and breeding it to a F male(back breeding) the results are still F3. Two F3's produce an F4

Or which would be common here, taking someones F2 of one line and breeding it to an F4 of another line. For all intents, when doing this, the F2 and F4 are your founders of a new combination and the F1's come from them.

Of even more importance is what we call a strain or line, This is also used very inaccurately, A strain is suppose to produce consistant results. That is, the offspring represent the parents. Which is very very rare with snakes, with the exception of pure recessives like abinism.

In my opinion we use our own labels and they are just fine for what we are doing now. Who knows about the future. Thanks FR

Thank you FR... that makes sense... i guess i'll just find my own lable for the offspring

Thanx again

~ZF