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F1 Revisited ....with an article

Keith Hillson Jul 23, 2005 08:04 AM

I started digging and I found this article ona Cichlid forum. I think this best relates to what we do in breeding and selling snakes. The way others have described using the "F" terms is more from a research standpoint not a commercial standpoint. Here is that article and a link to the full article....

Fish that have been obtained from their natural habitats are labeled as wild caught (WC) or sometimes a manufactured term, F0 is used to differentiate for any fish ‘wild caught’ from the wild in say Florida or a similar environment other than the fishes natural habitats. The F stands for Filial (genetic sibling) and the zero denotes no relation. This is an assumption, and genetically speaking these fish may not have significantly different genotypes. This is the first deviation from true genetic terms. In genetic terminology, the parents are labeled with a P. According to genetic terminology, to have parental stock from known separate genotypes one should have two separate collection sites or two different variants. However, this is not a goal of good cichlid husbandry.

From a WC or F0, parental stock, fry from the crossing would be labeled as Filial generation (F1). The number following the F denotes the different generations involved in breeding. F1 is the first filial or filial-one generation. This identifies the offspring as the progeny after mating or genetically crossing two types of parents with different genotypes or phenotypes (the parents are known as the P generation). F2 is the second filial or filial-two generation, i.e. the progeny of self-fertile or intercrossing F1 individuals and so on. Members of this generation are two generations removed from the original parent generation. F2 individuals have been in bred one time.

In cichlid husbandry, any generation beyond F3 is often called tank raised to denote the likelihood of genetic similarity to other specimens that may be obtained from hobby breeders in the area. For example, 50 fry forms 25 pairs that in a single generation could produce 1250 new fish. The likelihood of obtaining siblings increases with each generation.

Questions arise when performing a back cross or an outcross. For example, back cross an F2 with an F1 of the same bloodline. It is thought that this is labeled an F3 as the fry are three generations removed from the wild. However, genetically speaking, the fry could not be labeled as such, as this enters the world of line breeding.

Similarly, when out crossing an F2, for example, to a new WC, the progeny are genetically an F1, however hobbyists are expecting the F# as a tool to identify generation removed from wild. The correct label would therefore be WC x F2. Another outcross would be an F1 crossed with an F1 from another bloodline. This does not produce F2. These fish are not inbred one generation. These could be labeled for cichlid hobbyists as F1 x F1. In Genetic terminology, they are actually F1 specimens being from parents of known separate genotypes.

The key to remember, labeling should benefit the buyer, not the seller. Label all fry as clearly and simply as possible and avoid areas of confusion.

Does anybody think this system is not usuable for us ? It pretty much is used by many in the herp field now as thats where I learned of it to begin with.
Full article link

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Replies (9)

chicagopsych Jul 23, 2005 10:49 AM

"This identifies the offspring as the progeny after mating or genetically crossing two types of parents with different genotypes or phenotypes (the parents are known as the P generation)."

This is inline with the initial issue. The parents involved would be the P generation, the crossed offspring F1 and their offspring F2 and so on.

Keith Hillson Jul 23, 2005 11:25 AM

Yes buts its followed with this...
In genetic terminology, the parents are labeled with a P. According to genetic terminology, to have parental stock from known separate genotypes one should have two separate collection sites or two different variants. However, this is not a goal of good cichlid husbandry

Substitute Reptile instead of cichlid. You have to admit the use of f1 in the sense of how its known as you posted it doesnt really have any practical use unless its internal. You cant advertise f1 Ghost Brooksi because most will infer you mean 1st generation from wild collected animals. My point is use whatever the hell you want at home but keep it there.

Keith

>>"This identifies the offspring as the progeny after mating or genetically crossing two types of parents with different genotypes or phenotypes (the parents are known as the P generation)."
>>
>>This is inline with the initial issue. The parents involved would be the P generation, the crossed offspring F1 and their offspring F2 and so on.

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chicagopsych Jul 23, 2005 01:46 PM

"However, this is not a goal of good cichlid husbandry" What does this statement have to with marketing? "Husbandry" is not synonymous with ethical labeling. The only thing that should be gathered from the use of F1, or what ever generation it may be, is that the siblings of each subsequent generation following the initial parent breeding continue to be bred back to each other.

Now this is the part I have issue with. You become inflammatory with your “use whatever the hell” and keep it at home remarks. How can you say that someone can not use terminology that is correct just because you have a different take on it. The F designation by Rainer and ZFelicien is technically correct. Just because you and others use it a different way does not make it the only way or even the most accepted way.
Here is a definition from Northwestern’s biochem department. Nowhere does it necessitate the P generation be wild collected.

Offspring generation. F1 is the first offspring or filial generation; F2 is the second; and so on. Successive generations of progeny in a controlled series of crosses, starting with two specific parents (the P generation) and selfing or intercrossing the progeny of each new (F1; F2; . . . ) generation.

Go tell them to “keep it at home!”

Where they thinking of snakes when they wrote this? No. But you can’t hijack a scientific term and then demand everyone else adapt their understanding of the term to fit yours or else you are going to get all angry.

If most people in the hobby use the term a different way than intended, then you have a point. So argue that point. Don't get all angry and tell people they do not have the right to correctly use a term because others assume something that is not implied in the definition. Then the debate can become about what "most" herpers think when they see such an ad in the classifieds and the need for clarification from whatever side of the debate one may be on.

thomas davis Jul 23, 2005 01:37 PM

agreed in this instance these parents would be labeled "P" producing F1's IMHO,,,,but excuse the pun it seems kinda fishy
,,,,,,,,,,thomas

Pastorpat Jul 23, 2005 03:43 PM

Keith,
This is a good system. We can learn a lot from Cichlid keepers as they have been after it for a whole lot longer than we herp keepers have and they have had the same sorts of issues in keeping things straight. Thanks for the post!!!

Pat

Aaron Jul 23, 2005 11:50 PM

Here's an idea. Use FWC(filial wild-caught), FCB(filial captive-born as in the case of starting a line from two supposedly unrelated captive-born parents of unknown generation), FH(filial hybrid), FC(filial cross for captive crosses like manmade intergrades that are not true hybrids) and FM(filial morphs when crossing morphs to make new morphs).

chicagopsych Jul 24, 2005 09:06 AM

That is the type of debate/brainstorming we need. Not the get pissed off and attack some one types. It's not about who is right or wrong unless it is obvious that some one is trying to rip people off. Thank you for actually attempting to provide solutions to this consumer norm vs scientific norm issue.

Keith Hillson Jul 24, 2005 03:26 PM

What did you add to the debate but to tell me Im wrong ? I realize you are a newbie to this forum but to sit back and pic apart my post and not offer a suggestion makes you as guilty of what you accuse me of. I tried answrering ZF's question and he got upset. I wasnt the first to make a negative comment but you seem to think you are the new mod her or the forum police, nobody needs your protection we are all big boys. You seem to have some knowledge of snakes so why dont you quite wastin your time with me and help others.

Keith
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Aaron Jul 24, 2005 09:40 PM

Something to remember. If you are telling your customers they are F1's most people will assume you mean F1 from wild-caught unless you explain to them the other meanings or they are experienced with hybrids or genetics, in which case they will probably ask what you mean.

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