Reptile & Amphibian Forums

JETZEN Jul 25, 2005 09:46 PM

I'm glad you came to a conclusion about your choc. cal, and yes i was one of the few who stated that it was a cal, most everybody else including some of the top cali people on this forum claimed house snake or pine woods snake.
that thread was the most enjoyable thread i ever participated in.
here are a couple of pics you might be interested in,

choc cal presently in my collection, seems this morph was abandoned and people are going for the hi-whites and other hi-end phases, this snake was at a show, being offerd at $25 i traded two sploides for her and two of her sibs.

and here's one of the cals in my collection with the mystery scale, check out the extra prefrontal.
visit the forum more often, you post good stuff,lol

Jan Grathwohl Jul 26, 2005 01:51 AM

Hi Jetzen

GREAT to see your post - i better apologize if i was to sure last time critisizing your hint to californiae - the first photo you show is quite like mine.

What do you call them? Lampropeltis getula californiae - Chocolate? - Are they selectively breed or from a known locality?
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

JETZEN Jul 26, 2005 07:21 AM

No reason for you to apoligize, it's all good anyway.
My patternless chocolate kingsnake is a L.g.cal., het for blizz. which according to Kerby is actualy a dbl. het. (patterless albino X melanistic)
FR has stated these have been found in the vicinity of the L.A. airport.

here are a couple sibs to my patternless choc. cal

JETZEN Jul 26, 2005 07:28 AM

I may not be correct about the dbl. het. thing.

Jan Grathwohl Jul 26, 2005 07:49 AM

Hi

If i understand you right, Chocolate will then be a natural morf only occuring occasionally? Is that right?

of the four juvniles hatched yet, one is the blizzard you mentioned (thought it was albino - whats the difference?) and the three others look exactly like the parents.. is this normal if the locality normally contains banded specimens as well? (mine have no bands what so ever)
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

JETZEN Jul 26, 2005 06:17 PM

From what i understand a "blizzard" is a patternless albino.
the other question would be best answerd by one of the cali experts.

Aaron Jul 26, 2005 11:46 PM

If I am correct the Blizzards in the hobby now were created by combining amelanism and high-white to get a snake with mostly white pigment and very little patches of albinism. Jan's snakes would be the result of removing the dark pigment from all dark snake. I don't know what you would call them. Maybe Reverse Blizzard? As your amelanistic snake grows would you let us know if it develops any yellow pigment that may be unnoticable in your adult melanistics but more visible in your amel?

JETZEN Jul 25, 2005 09:20 PM

.

ZFelicien Jul 25, 2005 10:38 PM

~ZF

Ameron Jul 25, 2005 09:21 AM

It likely is a melanistic Cal King, from whatever locale. Could be a Coastal.

Baja specimens tend to be in 2 categories:

Conjuncta very dark, thin bands
Nitida very dark, thin stripe

Do a Google.com search for those 2 subtype names and you will likely find good photos of them. My guess is that yours is not a Baja specimen - but COOL if it is!

Ameron Jul 25, 2005 09:24 AM

If it is smaller than a King, and very irridescent, it is likely a Brown House Snake.

How fast is the strike?? That will tell you. Nothing strikes faster than a House Snake. You don't even really see the strike, just the coils & aftermath.

Jan Grathwohl Jul 25, 2005 11:45 AM

Hi Amaran

I have Lamprophis fuliginosus as well - and these are NOTHING like them at all. The iris is round (not like Lamprophis), they don't have the stripe from the eye, they are much heavier built. They are larger (about 110 cm) and more bulky in the build. They are fast, but not in any way like Lamprophis in killing prey (often bitting and then strangling slowly - my Lamprophis strike and strangle VERY fast and hard)

The morphology is also nothing like my Lamprophis.

The picture i showed you by Jetzen was the one bringing me to Lampropeltis - but well... it seems its still a mess
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

antelope Jul 25, 2005 09:15 PM

Don't give up! Track those suckers down! Cool looking snakes. Another pic, if you please!
Todd Hughes

HerperHelmz Jul 25, 2005 10:04 AM

Not cali kings.

And melanistic cali kings, are actually black, the only brownish ones I've seen were ones that just hatched.

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Michael's Place has updated, better caresheets
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Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

RussBates Jul 25, 2005 02:53 PM

that looks nothing like a house snake head. I've collected house snakes in the Seychelles and the head is very different than the picture that was posted. If you do a search on Google using "house snakes or Seychelles House snake" you'll find the pics I took when I collected the animal.

Though I personally don't own any of this particular speices, I really don't think it is a house snake. That said, I don't know what the heck it is

Russ

HerperHelmz Jul 25, 2005 07:42 PM

I can't really see that head as being a california king, and it looks like a House Snake more than anything to me... And in my opinion that's not really typical cali king coloration, though there are specimens like that, having a colony of them like that seems just unlikely to me.

Oh well.

-----
Michael's Place has updated, better caresheets
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Aaron Jul 25, 2005 11:22 AM

I do not think it is a Cape (or Baja) King, those are dark blue/black with faint striping (nitida) or bands (conjuncta).
I think it is a "Chocolate Cal King". My Lloyd Lemke price list from 1997 has both the Cape and the Chocolate on it. I have also seen Chocolate Cal Kings on a Snakes Alive price list from the 1990's. That price list says they come from near Davis, CA but they do not look like the normal Davis morph Cal Kings that I have seen, which are melanistic but heavily patterned with muddy yellow abberrant stripes or bands and have a solid brown belly.
Lloyd was selling the Chocolates for $80 in 1997 and I believe Snakes Alive was charging about $100, I don't have that list handy right now.
This morph never seemed to get very popular and nowdays when most people say Chocolate Cal King they mean regular striped or banded Coastal Phase.
I did see one of them for sale last year or the year before at the San Diego IRBA Show, an adult female for $100 or $150.

Jan Grathwohl Jul 25, 2005 11:48 AM

Hej Aron

My animals are solid brown on the belly - no speckling at all

They have very faint white speckles along the sides, and as mentioned a very faint dorsal stripe, and a somewhat darker head than the rest of the body.
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

jlassiter Jul 25, 2005 08:00 PM

Aaron,
I agree with you....Looks like the Llemke chocolate cal kings.
I think the faint stripe gives it away.
It is Lampropeltis....I did a couple scale counts from the pics.
And it matches with Californiae in my books.....
This does not rule out any crosses, but it "looks" pure calking to me............
John Lassiter

Jan Grathwohl Jul 26, 2005 01:53 AM

Thanx a lot John

Thats quite interesting - and i think we are finally about to have the final determination of the name for the critters.
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

thomas davis Jul 25, 2005 11:44 AM

i dont beleive that to be a kingsnake(lampropeltis) on a guess i would say house snake(lamprophis) can you get more pics? a ventral shot and better profile of the head showing labials would help w/i.d., maybe its just me but it just doesnt look getula to me, but i could be wrong,,,,,,,,,,thomas

Jan Grathwohl Jul 25, 2005 11:52 AM

Hi Thomas

Here is a few more shots

Maybe this could clarify a bit

and laying eggs

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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

thomas davis Jul 25, 2005 12:18 PM

im gonna go with a housesnake scalation doesnt match getula IMHO. great looker though congrats on eggs,,,,,,,,thomas

Jan Grathwohl Jul 25, 2005 12:32 PM

This is one of my housesnakes - they don't have anything in common

As you see the scalation, the eye, the head and everything else is not at all like my mystery snakes

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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

crimsonking Jul 25, 2005 01:59 PM

...differ enough to key out differently??
I don't have data on house snakes handy, but it seems scale counts etc. would differ enough to rule them in/out, huh?
Someone HAS TO have definitive answers for you.
Since you have house snakes also I'd think you might be the best source?
Let us know.
:Mark

antelope Jul 25, 2005 09:47 PM

I agree with Mark. Looks nothing like her house snake. Looks possibly lampropeltis/pantherophis? Single or divided anal?
Todd Hughes

RussBates Jul 25, 2005 02:57 PM

and more importantly who did you get them from. Knowingthe part of t he country that you purchased them in may be helpful. I'm not convinced it's a cal king nor do I even remotely believe it is a house snake.

Typical cal kings are 3.5 - 4 feet or more. You said it produced a clutch for you. How many eggs and how large were they after laying? Were all hatchlings a uniform brown like the snake pictured?

Russ

Jan Grathwohl Jul 25, 2005 04:12 PM

Hi Russ

The snakes were bought as housesnakes from a German guy at the Hamm expo in Germany two years ago

They are both around 110 cm and adult

At the way home we compared them to actual housesnakes (we did'nt had the time to check them much at the expo) - and they don't look like them.

I don't know were the german guy got them from (he talked about a Switz breeder, but as i told him they were not housesnakes, he did'nt wanted to mere more with them)

The clutch were ten eggs - four has hatched yet (after 106-111 days at 23-29 degress celcius) - one of these being an amelanistic.
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

HerperHelmz Jul 25, 2005 07:44 PM

Post up some pics of the baby snakes? Albino as well...

-----
Michael's Place has updated, better caresheets
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Jan Grathwohl Jul 26, 2005 01:58 AM

Hi Mike

Sure can

they are not that good thought - but hope you like anyway

If you have any particular wants i can make more shots tonight

Normal

Albino

Fetus

I know have four juveniles and more to come - only one albino though
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

JETZEN Jul 26, 2005 07:34 AM

Gorgeous babies, please check them for aberrant head scales.
The albino looks to be a "blizzard"

HerperHelmz Jul 26, 2005 11:43 AM

Yeah, well it could be either a Blizzard Cali King, or an Albino House Snake.

I've seen plenty of hatchling albino house snakes that looked exactly like that, and I've seen plenty of hatchling blizzard cali kings that looked exactly like that.

But the normal makes me think nothing but House Snake. Head shape and the scales make me think, not cali king...

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Michael's Place has updated, better caresheets
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

JETZEN Jul 26, 2005 06:20 PM

PIC, lol!

FR Jul 25, 2005 06:43 PM

Without having the snakes in hand, that appears to be a recessive morph of a calking that occures or occured around L.A. airport and vicinity. They were bred commonly. But I have no idea if they are now. Good luck FR

Jan Grathwohl Jul 26, 2005 02:05 AM

Hi

So thats the locality for Chocolate?

Sounds great - just starting to wonder how the h... this kind was sold as something totally different i Europe
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl

FR Jul 26, 2005 08:12 AM

Chocolate kings occur along the coast of california, in many spots. They are a recessive color phase. That is a small percentage of a normal colored population.

Like I said, the ones I use to breed were from the LAX. area. There are also some in the central california area as well. In fact, melanism occurs thru out the range of kings in areas of lots of vegetation. This is also true with desert kings, L.g.splendida=MBK. etc.

But then you must remember, Kingsnakes vary and have recessive color and pattern expressions thru out their entire range of both area and species. FR

Jan Grathwohl Jul 26, 2005 08:34 AM

Hi FR

If the pattern is recessive - would'nt it then be quite strange to have to adults (looking similar) and getting untill now four juveniles, three looking exactly the same and one being all white?
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Regards

Jan Grathwohl