Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As an old dude(one whos been doing this a while) I have learned there are many aspects to reptiles in this case snakes.

These aspects boil down to two seperate areas for us keepers, one very important area is physical requirememts. That is, the basic conditions to allow our charges to function. To function is to achieve basic life events like going from egg to egg. Growth, reproduction, longevity, old age, then death are all normal life events. With kingsnakes that is very understood and applied.

What I find odd is, once the physical part is understood, it allows the machine to function, then the second important area is exposed. That is, behavior. I somehow get the feeling his important area is often overlooked.

I feel what makes most snakes function, the physical part, is very similar. So what makes these different kinds of snakes unique is their behavior. Yet, its often ignored.

I understand that commerical breeders will and should boil keeping snakes down to the simplist common demominator. But why do private keepers have to follow them. You see, this is one of the reasons I stopped breeding snakes years ago.

Commerical breeders are to supply animals for us to enjoy. To enjoy them, we can do lots of things to keep our interest. Of course breeding them keeps your interest for a while, but that will wear off after a while. Producing all sort of colors and crosses will also keep you interested, but sadly that wears off to.

What seems to be ignored is what these things actually do, behaviors like how they pair up, how they nest, how they form or do not form groups, how they hunt, etc. The nice part is, all this change with age so theres always something to keep your interest.

As a field guy, I have found nesting to be the center of any populaton, even the same species nests in different ways in different areas. So of course this is interesting to me.

Once you explore behaviors, you will find that allowing animals to complete basic behaviors positively effects their physical health. So indeed behaviorial requirements are tied to physical requirements.

Any thoughts on this? FR

Frank, you said "I understand that commercial breeders will and should boil keeping snakes down to the simplist common demominator. But why do private keepers have to follow them."
I have been saying this for quite a while on here and many people question why I say it. Just because you[someone, not you FR lol] can do it does not mean everyone should, and I see people encouraging others to keep pets in racks and I wish it was more of an effort to influence people to keep pets in larger living quarters. I am a breeder, and I use racks, but I also prefer large cages which is something I want all my snakes in as I can afford it...and as of now, I can not afford that yet.
I spend much more time with my snakes than an average person who has a 9 to 5 job and I always look for clues to help me understand how to better provide for my snakes. I also try and look at them as individuals. For example only 1 of my 15 Floridana seems to need a damp hide with moss. The rest do not even seem to want to use one even if they're shedding. However the one that does need it does better with it in his cage so be it...he gets a damp hide.
I have been happy with my results thus far, but feel there's always room for improvement. Since you mentioned this nesting system you use with great results I find it very interesting and want to try it myself. Why many on here seem to have a "whatever" attitude baffles me, because waiting for eggs to be laid can drive a keeper nuts....therefor the sooner I see eggs the better. Not too mention it is not wrong to guess the snake would prefer to lay a clutch sooner too.
I have very little experience in the field, but I have learned a lot from many experienced breeders. My money says if those breeders read your posts they may be giving your method a try next season too. Another thing I have to mention is some things are right there in front of you...yet you do not see them. My example is under tank heating. It does the trick and works well, but for giving your snakes choices they are not as good as lighting, especially if positioned over something enabling them to get very close....or not too close depending on their needs. Why I did not think of that....I can not say. I am not about too switch 50+ cages to lighting immediately but I will experiment in the future. UTH work great, but the gradient I get is not as large as I would prefer...maybe I can have a cooler cage with a light....these are things I would like to experiment with. It is not rocket science...but that is all the more reason to try new things Tom Stevens

ITs doesn't have to be this way or that way(another thing I do not understand)(lemming effect) A keeper can do all of the above, have some in larger cages with lots of options, and still keep some in shoeboxes, etc, etc. There are no rules that say its one or the other buddy.

I see some very odd things like a keeper using a different kind of water bowl, they do all at once, not one at a time. Just an example. Thanks for wondering, FR

Like I say, I am happy with my results. I am also happy knowing when things do not work out I can often figure out what went wrong and then think of other options. That is what keeps this interesting. I sometimes consider working with other reptiles other than snakes....but after 30 years of enjoying them I am still not bored. I do not think I will ever be... Tom Stevens

Heres a pic of a monitor that nested today, remember, monitors are very attuned to nesting and different species nest in very different ways. This complex is a ground nester, much like kingsnakes. Of course monitors have legs so we can see them dig and bury the eggs, even tamp the ground with their heads. I would think snakes would block up their holes too, but sadly I have not witnessed it with kingsnakes, pythons yes, but not kingsnakes. I bet they do.

Heres the kingsnake nest for your comparison.

Monitors have a much larger period in which they will hold their eggs, they can lay them from 8 days after breeding, or hold them up to 30 days, after about 30 days, the eggs begin to die inside the female, then they do not nest and drop the eggs around the cage. In this case the monitor more or less made its own conditions, The board that the eggs are under was at the surface, but the monitor buried it about 15 inches deep. Whether this was on purpose or accidental is debateable, but she keeps doing it over and over. If only snakes had legs, we may be able to recognize more. FR

from your captive and/or field experience, can you quantify a range of physical requirements necessary for successful behavioral requirements for nesting? things such as preferred substrate density/porosity/particle size, moisture content, humidity, oxygen saturation... i think these are some things that need to be measured by those that can and are interested in measuring them because for many species they are unknowns. you may have observed many kingsnake nests in your field work, but not many/any have found indigo or Louisiana pinesnake nests, imagine what this data might do for their conservation and for captive breeding efforts. the most recent book on incubation comes from d.c.deeming "reptilian incubation, nottingham university press(editor) and in virtually every chapter the authors lament the paucity of data on these sorts of things.
it also amazes me that eggs are not recognized with a "life stage " by biologists. kind of like they are not really part of the population yet so many animals ( females in particular ) die in order to reproduce and they die following behaviors linked to physical requirements locating a nest for highest likelyhood for egg survival.

may be a dull topic but i think this is what leads to the answer many want to know- how much water to mix in your vermiculite, perlite, moss, paper, whatever.

I have to agree, I have been preaching(much worse then here) the the reproductive requirements of wild populations are much much more important then foraging requirememts.

So how biology thinks snakes are cattle and foraging is key. They need to understand they are more like birds, in that nesting is the the key to populations. If order to protect a population, you need to protect whats required to recruit, that is, make babies.

Good on you for breeding it up. But unfortunately, it appears each population may nest in a different way. At least with pyros and other montane kings. They specialize in what the area they are in provides. I call that cultural nesting. I do not know if ones from one area can adapt to other types of nesting, my guess is not. I think thats what determines where they live. Thanks FR

That's some things to mull over. Interesting stuff. The 9 speckled/desert king eggs I found were on top of the soil under an oven adjacent to a permanent water source. I have never found an indigo nest but have seen several hatchlings and yearlings found in rock tumbledowns adjacent to a semi permanent source of water (creek). Also under a toppled tree in the root system adjacent to a semi permanent source of water. Here in the eastern half of Texas that is what I am seeing, but it is just my observations. Dry, humid, deep wiyh indigos; dry, humid, and close to the surface but under cover for the kings. I don't think I will get tired of field work, as there is still tons to discover, and as F.R. said their keys to better living with us are to find the optimums where they live.
Todd Hughes

After working with FR in the field for way too many years, I can say with no doubt that the man makes one think. He says:

"What seems to be ignored is what these things actually do, behaviors like how they pair up, how they nest, how they form or do not form groups, how they hunt, etc. The nice part is, all this change with age so theres always something to keep your interest."

What amazes me is that we herptologists, herpetoculturists, academic scientists, snake lovers, whatever we call ourselves, lend so little credence to the idea that our beloved creatures ARE unique individuals. I am talking within a species, not between species. They have true personalities, different tastes, moods, strengths and weaknesses. There are cultural differences within populations, between populations, within and between groups in a local population. There is aged based behavioral variety that also differs between individuals within a population. There is seasonal variation in common behaviors. They are held together by common bonds: genetic? behavioral? demographic? hmmmmmm

The detailed study of snake behavior will open the door to understanding them. We have to truly OPEN our minds to the idea that they often operate much the same as birds and even many mammal species (or maybe many birds and mammals often act like snakes????). Even more importantly, we have to inquire and realize the possibility that they are individuals that learn, think, communicate and make decisions. I already believe this. I struggle with how to prove it in a world that can't figure out human behavior, much less reptilian behavior. When we look at setting up nest boxes, temperature ranges, or try to establish other blanket rules for species, we often get caught by the cultural differences between populations, and then, the individual differences in behavior. That is where the give them choices and let them sort it out really gets fun!!!

So there you go Frank.... you got me spewing again. Goodnight old man LOL!!!!! Hugh

Glad you stopped by, Hugh, always good to read from you! A time to learn some more good stuff, peoples!
Todd Hughes

Hugh,
The problem is that as long as I've known Frank he has been butting heads with minds so narrow they can look through a keyhole with both eyes. Pity really, because we all can learn from everybody, even an old curmudgeon like Frank!!!

Pat

" i hate the word anthropomorphism. It should be the other way around. Not how animals are like humans, but how humans are like animals."

Its Rediculous. dogs and cats can be as different as Caligula and Santa Claus, with long lists of quirks and habits and moods. But of course, not snakes? Just because we can't see it doenst mean it isnt there, and it may not even be that we can't see it, we just aren't looking for it in the right spots?
James

And they are indeed, big and white. I agree with you James. FR

you will find that allowing animals to complete basic behaviors positively effects their physical health.

What did you mean by that? "complete basic behaviors." Do you mean, for example, if you're handling your snake and it starts to slither away from you, should you just let it go to "complete a basic behavior"? Not being sarcastic, just couldn't think of a better example.

What are kingsnakes basic behaviors? I am sure you understand they have natural behaviors to hunt for food, and also behaviors based on the type of food they feed on. I would imagine part of their prey behaviors are instinctual, and some is learned. Like instinct gives them a wide range of things they call food, and thru experience they refine it to whats common in their certain area.

To seek a mate is a natural behavior, this may very from species to species and area to area.

Which leads to what was posted here, to nest. Kingsnakes do not drop their eggs anywhere, they put them in certain areas, at certain times, and at certain temps and humidity.

What's odd is, there are millions of kingsnakes laying eggs every year, yet the eggs are rarely found. This indicates they just don't put them anywhere. They must put them in certain places. How do they know were to put them and why?

Snakes move thru their enviornment, why? what promps that?

As snakes age, their behaviors also change, how and why?

So yes, I think I could go on for some time. but its plain, their behavior is what makes them what they are. Their design, is to accomplish their behaviors. Behaviors are everything. FR